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Hello lovely people. I was hoping to avoid posting my story for as long as possible because I didn’t want to make it real. But I’ve been divorce busting for a month or two now, and I’m getting to the point where I could use some advice.

I’m going to start big to small instead of writing a narrative.

My wife and I are both 37. We’ve been together 15 years, married 8. We have two boys, 5 and 2. I work, she is a stay at home mom. Things have been going downhill since our youngest was born 2 years ago.

She dropped the bomb on me 4 months ago, just before lockdown, although it wasn’t much of a bomb the way things have been going. “I love you but I don’t see any way for this marriage to succeed, because you want sex/intimacy and I don’t ever again. I want a divorce.” Later that night when seeing how distraught I was, she walked it back by saying “I didn’t say I was GOING TO, just that I want it right now.”

Then lockdown together with our two boys, and deep financial and logistical problems. I played it very low key for over a month and things seemed to be cooling. But I finally had to confront (kindly) her about her behavior/rudeness to me (on air with my boss), and she reiterated she “doesn’t see this going anywhere and wants a divorce.” I finally said, ok, can we at least not use lawyers? And she stopped cold, later walking it back that she “ still hopes this has a happy ending.”

That’s the framework. Some details:

My wife is deeply depressed. I didn’t realize how badly until 7 months ago. She has become increasingly explosive and erratic in the last 2 years, blaming me for everything in her life and gaslighting me that it’s all my fault. Her depression has been going downhill for 6 years (since first pregnancy), with a “cry for help” about 3 years ago that shook me.

This is a complete 180 from her personality before kids (5 years): sweet, kind, caring if somewhat aloof and timid. It’s almost a Jekyll/Hyde. She is a stranger to me.

I’ve done my best to research postpartum depression, chronic depression, trauma (her father is terminal and there is a fatal car accident in her past), and to become less anxious by embracing meditation, detachment, and positive thinking. She seems to hate me all the more for it, and she has gone deeper into rage. Our oldest son is special needs and also falls into the rage territory (throwing, hitting, swearing) and is a handful on good days, which has added to our stress. Plus no support network.

So that’s where we are now. I know there are details I’m leaving out.

We are in lockdown limbo. She is kind and caring to the kids, touches them and says lots of I Love Yous. Will not touch me or say anything affectionate. However, she still does nice things for me (brings me a blanket, makes me tea, etc) and constantly asks me to join in joy with the kids (“Daddy, look at what junior can do!” Also, “Junior, give daddy a big kiss, he needs it.”). We are also planning a move soon, and despite saying she wants a divorce, all her planning talk is as a family (“oh, we can have Christmas morning at such-and-such! Finally be able to do to as a family.”)

I’ve been concentrating my efforts on DBing and, most recently, being the lighthouse/picnic and detaching. But I am very, very confused. I’m having trouble knowing if I’m being the lighthouse, or being cold. It’s tough when she’s so erratic, angry, and blaming. I don’t know if I should be supportive, or distant.

TL,DR; kind gentle distancer wife turned angry and bitter after having kids. She bounced back after first kid, but isn’t coming back this time. Normally logistically-minded partner seems to have her head in the sand about finances and marriage decay. Says she wants a divorce every time I stand up against the rage, but then walks it back. Makes plans for togetherness in the future, but seems happy having a completely disconnected marriage with no touching or closeness, though she promotes deep closeness with the kids. Is kind to me at a distance, but fights back any attempts to improve the marriage, and won’t move to actually split. Everything is “my fault.” Color me confused.

I am committed to the marriage. I want my wife back - the real one, not this person who has taken her place since we had kids. Until recently I’ve been the “do anything, be anything” type of fixer but that has only pushed her further away and she walks all over me with rage and passive aggression. My boys are high needs and they definitely need a cohesive family and at least one stable parent, so I’m doing everything I can to hold the family together, for them. It’s not a clear-cut case - if she wanted out, we could make that happen. But she’s so depressed and swinging wildly that I can’t tell what is going on, I only know that I have to endure this if the family is to have any chance.

Last edited by job; 10/18/20 02:26 PM. Reason: added Part 1 to subject title
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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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Hi Hoch,

Sorry you're here... this is hard in the best of circumstances and it sounds like you're in a really tough spot.

Is your wife in IC?


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Hoch,

Welcome to the board. And I am very sorry you are going through this. However, most of us have had something similar occur so we can understand and help you.

My first thing is to caution you on trying to find a "reason". I see a lot of "My wife is deeply depressed." "I’ve done my best to research postpartum depression, chronic depression, trauma (her father is terminal and there is a fatal car accident in her past)," Humans, and especially we guys, think that if we can diagnose a cause, then we can fix it. This is why we make good mechanics and repair men! Something is amiss, find a root cause. Then mitigate the cause.

Unfortunately, with these kinds of situations, that is not how things work. And looking for such a fix will cause you to put your hope in the wrong things, cause you to do the wrong things, and to put your efforts into the wrong areas. For instance, May asked if your W is in IC. However, you need to be careful not to suggest she goes to IC. That is focusing on her. Trying to fix her. Instead, you lead by example. You go out and GAL. Recapture that guy that caused her to be attracted to you in the beginning! You work on self-improvements (180s). One of the best ways to self-improve is to get yourself into IC. And then you take Cadet's advice and you detach. Learn what loving detachments is. More importantly, learn what it is not. And then you do what it is and not what it isn't. (Hint: It isn't ignoring or stonewalling her!)

Finally, you stop looking for the right thing to say or the right thing to do to snap her out of it. There are no magic bullets. If their were then this forum wouldn't exist. There would just be a one line web page saying: "DO/SAY this to talk your W out of Ding you!" Unfortunately, these things are more complex than that.

AS far as:

" I played it very low key for over a month and things seemed to be cooling. But I finally had to confront (kindly) her about her behavior/rudeness to me (on air with my boss), and she reiterated she “doesn’t see this going anywhere and wants a divorce.” I finally said, ok, can we at least not use lawyers? And she stopped cold, later walking it back that she “ still hopes this has a happy ending.”"

A few things. First, drop your fear of using lawyers. When your transmission in your car goes, you call in a specialist don't you? Same thing with D. Divorce is a legal proceeding, and you need to call in the experts. One of the best things I did in my sitch was to consult an attorney.

Next, do not use "confronting her about behavior/rudeness" to you as an excuse to have an R talk. One of the first rules of DB is no R talks! Avoid them like the plague. If she starts one you listen, and validate. Please study the validation thread Cadet linked to you. It is an amazing diffusing tool. R talks will get you no where.

If she is being rude you simply, calmly say: "I refuse to be talked to that way/treated that way." Then end the exchange. Go out for a drive. Go hang out with a buddy. Something. You cannot control how she behaves but you can refuse to be subject to it.

Most of the time, LBSs see this behavior.....BECAUSE THEY ARE INTERACTING WITH THEIR WAS TOO MUCH!! This is what GAL is for. You should be limiting your interactions with her. If you aren't spending time with your kids (whether she is there or not) you are out being busy!! DO not underestimate the power of GAL.

Finally, you have one goal. REMOVE ALL pressure an pursuit. You should be weighing ever interaction you are tempted to have with her. If it is pressure and/or pursuit in the slightest, then do not have it with her! (Hint: 99.9999999% of the interactions you are tempted to have with her are pressure and/or pursuit!) When you feel you need to ask her something, tell her something, take her something, do something for her, etc, ask yourself: is this pressure and/or pursuit? If it is, then do not do it!

Remember, doing nothing IS doing something. You will feel compelled to act. Doing nothing is acting!


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Thank you all so much for replying. I knew I made the right decision to post here.

Cadet, thank you, and I am voraciously reading everything on that list.

May22 - yes, both my wife and I are in IC. She only recently started (6 months), but I’ve been going consistently for 5 years. I’m a firm believer in Ic, and I’ll admit that I pretty seriously twisted her arm to get her to go, coming off a few months of her yelling at everyone in the house and staying up all hours. That was one of the last times I pushed my agenda, which I now realize is not nearly as helpful as backing off.

Steve85 - thank you for your kind words, and I’m taking them all to heart. I’m falling back into that beginner’s mindset, and seeing that my tendency to fix things has definitely been causing problems. Largely I’ve been focused on “fixing” because the dire logistical challenges our small family is under requires two people to fix, and watching her unravel just when I need her help (to keep us from things like bankruptcy, eviction, and job loss) has been heartbreaking. But you’re right - it’s not helping.

Some thoughts I’m having right now:

I had never considered it, but could this be a MLC for her? Because it’s not just her wanting to leave me, she’s wildly inconsistent. It makes me wonder if I would have success with the MLC strategies.

Mostly I’m wondering how I should be interacting day to day. I’ve read and re-read the detach posts, but in practice it’s difficult to know how to respond. If she makes me tea, do I make tea for her? She interprets my limited responses as being angry, when I’m not. She ignores me completely, but then wants me to pour over joyful baby photos and videos with her.

I feel like metaphorically she’s saying “I want nothing to do with you. Let’s go see a movie.”

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Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.


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Originally Posted by Hoch

I had never considered it, but could this be a MLC for her? Because it’s not just her wanting to leave me, she’s wildly inconsistent. It makes me wonder if I would have success with the MLC strategies.


Why does this matter? All of the "strategies" you should be employing should be focused on you, not her. That is the point of detaching. Taking the focus off of her, and putting it on to you. YOU CANNOT DO OR SAY ANYTHING TO SAVE THE MR. That is the biggest learning that LBSs learn by DBing. If she wants a D you will get D'd. And nothing you say or do will stop that. So whether it is depression, an MLC, or she just suddenly flipped her cookie, none of it matters.

One anti-D expert I read going through my sitch said it best: MLCs to the one going through it is not a crisis at all! To them it is an awakening. To them they feel they've never thought clearer before! So you need to realize that. What is a crisis to you is something amazing and profound to her!

Originally Posted by Hoch

Mostly I’m wondering how I should be interacting day to day. I’ve read and re-read the detach posts, but in practice it’s difficult to know how to respond. If she makes me tea, do I make tea for her? She interprets my limited responses as being angry, when I’m not. She ignores me completely, but then wants me to pour over joyful baby photos and videos with her.


Hoch, my W was the same way. When I really got good at detachment she would constantly ask me "what's wrong?" or "is everything okay?" I would cheerfully respond with a "Nothing at all!" or "Yep, things are good!" See, here is the thing. When a WAS tells us they want a D, they expect us to be sad, angry, upset. They expect pressure and pursuit. So when you flip that script and act "as if", it throws them for a loop. The better I got at detachment the more I could see my W questioning if she really wanted a D. The more she became interested in what I was thinking and feeling. The more she started to, due to the lack of my pressure and pursuit, pressuring and pursuing me! This is not new stuff, Hoch. Read the distance-pursuit thread. Continue to study detachment. Being healthily and lovingly detached is not just something you do to save your MR. It is how you should be in your marriage too! Google: "self-differentiation in marriage" for an understanding of it.

Originally Posted by Hoch

I feel like metaphorically she’s saying “I want nothing to do with you. Let’s go see a movie.”


She may very well. One of the things my W said (remember, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do!) that looking back was something I can say now was true, was that from minute-to-minute she didn't even know what she wanted! You could see the battle waging within her. If I broke DB rules and started an R talk, I always got my grapes crushed! But if I remained detached, she would talk about future plans. Or future things she wanted us to do. "We should invite so and so over sometime." Or, "I think we should build a gazebo on the property some time."

This is why we often tell LBSs that this is less about you than you think it is! This is something that she is struggling with internally. One minute she wants a new life, away from you, and the next she wants to reconnect and do fun things. This is why we tell LBS that they should attach NO MEANING to anything they say or do at any given moment. My W, after telling me she wasn't attracted to me, would initiate sex. My guy brain would fight with logic and reason ("it means nothing!") and emotion and feeling ("she had sex with me, she likes me again!"). But it drives a sane person crazy, because it is so incongruent!

Here is the thing: nothing in these situations makes sense. If logic and reason won out in these sitches then there would never be a WAS to begin with! So WASs are running on sheer emotion. What they feel in a given moment is what they will act on. This is why you should not assign any meaning to what they say or do. This was why my W told me what she told me about her feelings changing. She once said when I pressed her for what she wanted "I still want a D. But if you ask me again in five minutes, I may feel differently." HUH? Something as huge as getting a D and she was treating like whether she should eat a sandwich or not!

Hoch, this is why you focus on you. GAL. 180. Detach. Turn your focus to yourself, and take it off of her. Otherwise you will go mad trying to find "meaning" in what she is saying and doing. You may as well chase pots of gold at the end of a rainbow.


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Ok, I’m doing what I can to throw out old strategies and understandings and adopt a new plan, focused on myself.

I’m currently trying to wrap my head around what the Divorce Remedy says about positive impact, as well as the section on the depressed spouse and what you can do to continue being supportive even if they push you back/away, and the good advice I’m getting here that nothing I say or do can save the MR. help me to understand so I can act accordingly.

At present, we seem to be in this holding pattern. I’ve stopped engaging in fights - they used to be daily, she’d pick fights about anything and I’d dig a hole by trying to defend myself rationally. Those have stopped, as I’ve simply stopped responding, or started leaving the room when she lashes out. The good news is, a few days into me dropping the “distancer purser” dance suddenly, she came to me and said she wants to make strides in her mental health.

That’s HUGE - so far, she’s only dealt with her mental health reluctantly, resisting any change or diagnosis and telling me it’s fine, back off. I started... well, basically ignoring interactions and only responding when spoken to, and two days into it she had tears in her eyes and said “I need to do [such and such] to fix myself, the kids deserve better.” It’s basically the first time she’s taken responsibility for ANY part of the relational dynamic (or shown insight) in years. That’s big.

I’m afraid we’re in this sort of limbo now though, a no-man’s land. We’re married, but not really in a relationship. But there’s no move to leave. I have this gnawing fear that she’s happy to just stay that way forever, with me at arms length. I don’t want that, and wish I knew there was some light at the end of the tunnel. It’s sad to think she may just be happy living like that.

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My God Hoch , when I read this my mind flipped. Totally the same sort of vibe I get of my W.

Originally Posted by Hoch

I feel like metaphorically she’s saying “I want nothing to do with you. Let’s go see a movie.”


I Described my sitch to A friend "I want a divorce ,what do you want for Dinner?"

Originally Posted by Hoch

I’m afraid we’re in this sort of limbo now though, a no-man’s land. We’re married, but not really in a relationship. But there’s no move to leave. I have this gnawing fear that she’s happy to just stay that way forever, with me at arms length. I don’t want that, and wish I knew there was some light at the end of the tunnel. It’s sad to think she may just be happy living like that.


This again is exactly where I am as well, bizarre headspace .
Both my wifes mother and stepdad have existed like this for 30 years .
Scary biscuits.
CHIN UP Hoch
You are not alone.

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Tusk, I was reading your thread before I posted, and it sounds like we are in similar positions. So, I will respond for both of us - we won’t end up on that situation. Patience is a virtue, and I plan to become a master. I also seem to remember reading that these stretches of no apparent change should be expected and anticipated.

One thing I’m trying to work out today is, if I’m stopping the pursuit, should I still be complementary and supportive? One of the things I had been doing was saying she looked nice/beautiful, making her food or tea, helping with small tasks. But to completely stop pursuit, I’m not sure if I should be doing those things.

After a week or so of stopping pursuit, she did ask me recently, “is there a reason you’re being incredibly distant toward me?” I responded that I wasn’t intentionally, but internally I was aghast. Of course, I wanted to yell out, “you avoid me like the plague, you never say a kind word, you act like I don’t exist - and you have the audacity to ask why I’m being distant?”

Sometimes, it feels like a sick game. Other times it feels as though she isn’t even aware of how weak our marriage is - in those instances maybe the question is genuine? Other times, I wonder if it’s part of the pursuer dance - she wants to ask me why I’m distant, so I can tell her and she can distance again.

I tell you one thing, I’m committed to making this work, but I’d love to get to a place where I’m not second guessing motives behind words anymore.

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