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You should have told him you were going to a L consult =)

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I was veeeeeery tempted to dress nicely as I knew he would think that if so. Decided it felt manipulative to do so and refrained.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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I think it's manipulative for him to keep dragging you into R talks.

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Alison, I am glad I didn't remark on it. I definitely would have a week ago. (Not to say I didn't go check later and see how much he's read.)

And, by you mentioning that, I was able to reframe coming home to him reading the book with a super clean house from "he's trying" or "he isn't so bad" to him setting up a little purposeful tableau, aimed at getting me to think just that.

It is hard for me to get up in arms about him wanting to know where I was going. If it were the other way around and I wasn't explicitly trying to not give a $hit I would have done the same, probably a lot less nicely. I know he's weirded out that I did something without telling him. I think it is just another sign that our R is not the same as it was before, for both of us, that the A and his deceptions have changed something fundamentally between us. All in all, probably not a bad thing for him to understand.

I also ordered a Ring security camera, which we had talked about loosely a few weeks ago, before he reignited with AP. The usual way this kind of thing happens is that I do a ton of research, get his input, and we make the decision together. This was reframed after BD as I made all the decisions and he just went along with it, but I think he's over that fiction these days. In this case, I decided to just buy what I wanted, also because if he moves out, I really do want a security camera set up. It came yesterday. H looked at it and then me and knew all of that processing in my head. He looked sad. He said you didn't talk to me about this. I said, no. He said, I get it.

Pommy, thanks for checking in. I have been thinking more and more about intermittent reinforcing as a dynamic in our R since the BDs. I am also trying to figure out why I am still standing, how much of it is a perception of "winning" or not wanting this to be my story enough that I'm ignoring really important aspects of what is happening *now*. And, how much the pursuer-distancer dynamic is playing a part in this for me-- truth is, I didn't want him sexually or think about him all that much as a person until he no longer wanted me. Then it all came roaring back. is that just me wanting what I don't have? Someone took my toy away and I want it back? I know he thinks that is the case, that I can't truly be "in love" with him anymore, because I didn't demonstrate it for all those years and also because he isn't "in love" with me and it needs both of us for the feeling to truly exist.

On the Botox thing, he did say I know I don't have a leg to stand on BUT, I can't believe you didn't tell me. I was like, you're right. You don't have leg to stand on. I didn't feel comfortable telling you. (I should have just left it at he didn't have a leg to stand on... not sure why I felt the need to justify myself to him.)

So no talk of A, AP, or R at all yesterday, so that's a positive. He did let me know that he has a 1-1 call with our MC today, to which I said ok great. (we joked a little that MC would be like daaaaaaaang WTF?) but no actual discussion.

We did talk about other stuff last night after the kids went to bed, coronavirus and some recent career-related conversations I've had. i hadn't planned on sharing any of that with him, I know I shouldn't have. That no talking unless absolutely necessary boundary is just not a real boundary for me yet. I know to my bones I can enforce it once he leaves. It still just feels artificial right now. I guess I still need to stew in the "he is not someone I need in my life in any way" narrative a bit more.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Originally Posted by unchien
I think it's manipulative for him to keep dragging you into R talks.

Yes, absolutely. After my conversation with the IC my boundary on R talks feels very clear-- at least, boundary around the A, AP, or the fantasy future. Those are hard lines. And he actually hasn't tried for the last couple of days. I haven't told him my boundaries yet (explicitly-- the last couple of times the R came up at all, like in the conversation about his talk with his brother, I just put up my hand and said I don't want to talk about that and he said OK.) Trying to decide if I should state "these are my boundaries, please respect them" or just enforce them when they come up.

Your post about the manipulation was really helpful to me too. I think I need to keep just spotting this. It doesn't matter WHY he is doing any of this, but the fact that he's doing it is not okay. I'm particularly not okay with discussing the fantasy future D scenario. The last time we talked about it was maybe Saturday. I need to also be OK with the fact that if we go down this road, I don't need to give a $hit that he understands why I will make the choices I do. Just like he needs me to validate his decisions, I think I need him to not think I'm just being an unreasonable b**ch. I need to let that go too.


Me (46) H (42)
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Originally Posted by may22
Trying to decide if I should state "these are my boundaries, please respect them" or just enforce them when they come up.


You should just enforce when it comes up, no need to state it. Actions not words.

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Originally Posted by May22
It is hard for me to get up in arms about him wanting to know where I was going.


This is literally cake eating. He still wants to be your H (i.e. wants to know where you're going / what you're doing) but he doesn't want you to be his W (i.e he wants his non-M life as well). My H was the same when he first left (and for a long time after). Recently my H stormed off when I had the audacity to ask him to message me before coming around 'unexpectedly'. This is one of those arguments which has reared its head repeatedly since he moved out. I don't think it's because its got anything to do with me and everything because "THIS IS HIS HOUSE" and he doesn't want some other man staying in it. Cake eating.

The thing is May, you need to just let him stew in it and carry on regardless. I know that sometimes it feels wrong to put yourself first, and believe me when I tell you, he will make you feel that you are selfish and you are the one pushing you further away from each other. He will try and pull you back with kindness, and when he discovers that doesn't work, he will make you feel like it's your actions that are contributing to him wanting to choose her. But it isn't about him. It is about you choosing you. Because if you fall for the niceness he will just go back to his old ways. If you cave to the accusations, then he will go back to his old ways. If he is really willing to change then you will see his own 180's coming to the fore and they will be consistent. If he doesn't change, then you've chosen you and the you you choose will be wrinkle free.

Regarding the 'you didn't have sex with me for years'. This is an excuse and a way of turning his affair into something that is somehow your fault. He should have communicated those feelings so they could be addressed. I can't remember who said it, but we are all responsible for the failures in our M. But it is the WAW who throws it away and (well, not in your case) sets fire to it. All i can say is you have to forgive yourself for this. But you only have to take responsibility for your part in it and understand what led you to no longer want to have sex with your H. You are not responsible for his affair (that is on him). I get it by the way. After D10 was born we probably went down to a couple of times per week for a couple of years. Exhaustion, feeling taken for granted as well as sex seeming like just another wifely duty takes its toll on your sex life and it it goes on for too long, it becomes habit.

Originally Posted by May22
And, how much the pursuer-distancer dynamic is playing a part in this for me-- truth is, I didn't want him sexually or think about him all that much as a person until he no longer wanted me. Then it all came roaring back. is that just me wanting what I don't have? Someone took my toy away and I want it back?


Can I be honest, it is probably a bit of this. It's also a bit of your confidence is shattered and (in your head) you already know what it is like to be rejected by your H (this is a familiar pain), then the possibility of opening yourself up to someone new and risk being rejected by them. Fear of the unknown. You know my story. A part of me would rather sit in limbo knowing that there is little to no chance of my H coming back then risk being hurt again by someone else.

May, you are doing amazing. Continue to do things for you and you only and don't let him make you feel bad for doing them. If you must, take an interest in his life (MC etc) but try not to get invested in it. It is your own healing and growth that is important and should be your focus. Detachment is hard. But you can do it.


W40 (me), H40
M14, Together 16
D12, D9

BD Oct 17
Moved out Mar 18

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Thanks, FS. Today is rough. I am thinking back to him telling me maybe Tuesday when I was still powered by anger, May, I know you. You'll be like this for three or four days and then you'll let go of that anger and look at things differently. You've surprised me every time in how you deal with this stuff in the end but the one thing I do know is that you *will* let this anger go. At the time, I cut my eyes at him and walked away. Later that day, he make a joke and against my better judgment I cracked a tiny smile. He said, I told my mom today all I want is to make May smile. And I just did it.

And I know know know that this is probably just his manipulating me. I get it. There is just such a gap right now for me between understanding it intellectually and feeling it in my bones.

Originally Posted by FlySolo
Because if you fall for the niceness he will just go back to his old ways.

Already happening. I only see this not happening if I get some actual space.

Originally Posted by FlySolo
If you cave to the accusations, then he will go back to his old ways.

question on this...I pretty much have forgiven myself for the SSM. I did the best I could with what I knew at the time. I have had some wrenches of real regret in this last go-round, where H said explicitly this never would have happened if I'd been sleeping with him, and we were more like once a month for years and when he met AP we hadn't had sex in several months. (He says six, which I dispute, but it is immaterial.) At that point he decided to stop asking. Two months later he saw AP again and they slept together. He said he went into it on that trip in the flirtation period and then they slept together and he was BANG in love with her and it was too late.

It wasn't for another couple of months that I initiated sex (also in a totally half-hearted like I really knew I needed to because it had been a scarily long time kind of way). And he said no. That he had been waiting for me to initiate and I never did. That he finally realized I didn't want him sexually and I had broken him sexually. (not really, since he was steaming it up with AP, but again, I didn't know that at the time.) And it wasn't until a full year after that that i had my "awakening" during this long weekend where H walked away thinking we were going to get Ded and I rediscovered my love and passion for him. (<-- very much sounds like I realized my toy was missing and wanted it back, doesn't it?)

Anyway, when this comes up, I mostly try to validate. I have also more recently said I didn't feel like he cared to understand what was happening for me around that time, that the SSM was his "reason" for cheating but the factors that led to the SSM for me were "excuses." He listened to this, said no, he did want to understand, but that it just hurt him so badly, he didn't think I really got it, etc etc.

So in this case, would you say validating is caving? Should I just say I'm not interested in talking about that at this point? I mean, there really isn't much of a point from my view unless he was recommitting to the M. And that feels far off at the moment, plus I'm actively trying to stamp on those stupid thoughts.

He knows where I stand, I am sorry, I am not that person anymore. Which he does know-- he said he told his IC that the sex we've been having for the past four months is "not his wife" who only wanted missionary and as quick as possible but I also think there are other feelings in there, of anger still for the SSM and "oh now you want this when it is too late" and also the feelings that never went away for the AP. As I write this I'm convincing myself that there is no good reason to have any sort of talk about the SSM anymore. He knows where I stand, I know where he stands. More talk is not helpful. (Right?)

Originally Posted by FlySolo
The thing is May, you need to just let him stew in it and carry on regardless.

This, I think I can do. Hold my (current) boundaries. Let him stew. Do my thing. Keep pondering these big questions. Maybe I just need a bit more time to grieve what I thought I had. Maybe the best I can do today is to hold the line on the A/R/Fantasy D talks. Keep focusing on my plans for a future without him and keep working on letting go of the fear. Maybe I can't be cold hard NC today, but maybe I can get there.


Me (46) H (42)
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It’s all irrelevant now.

The thing about people who step outside the marriage because their needs weren’t being met is that they had ethical options. Counselling, separation, divorce. There will always be excuses for why they simply couldn’t make a clean break - children, finances etc - but the reality is they chose the option which minimised responsibility and maximised blame.

You don’t have to be ‘in love’ with someone to refrain from destroying their life. ‘I love you but I’m not in love with you’ has no place in discussions of infidelity. If for whatever reason they love you and still want to leave you, they would do so in a way that did not hurt you. With honesty, with integrity, with regret, with sadness, with respect. With a fair settlement and custody arrangement in acknowledgement and reparation for reneging on their sacred commitment.

Anything less is not love.

If you stop being ‘in love’ with me, stop being ‘in marriage’ with me. And also ‘in house’ with me, and ‘in bank account’ with me, while you’re at it. Don’t wallow in self-pity and make me be the one to make these decisions. Don’t add insult to injury. Don’t take advantage of my shock and grief to stick the knife in with blame. Own your sh!t and leave.

I encourage you to keep thinking about taking space from your H.


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He said, I told my mom today all I want is to make May smile. And I just did it.


This is one of the most $%^(-ed up things I've read from him, May. The manipulation, the arrogance. I am SURE in his mind he is cajoling poor little May nicely out of her funk so she will be nice to him and there will be peace in the house.

What is actually happening is that he's been cheating and lying to you, you are reacting in a calm, dignified way and have clearly asked for alone time to process your feelings about the fact that you don't want an open marriage and he is forcing you to have one and expecting you to be happy about it.

And he can't even let you have that - your utterly normal, reasonable and respectfully expressed feelings about it. Now if you were running around the house screaming, setting his pubic hair on fire and throwing his stuff into a lake it would be wrong. Understandable, but wrong. But you're simply asking for space, privacy and for him to stop 'working you' like you are a vending machine full of goodies. You're not telling him what he can and can't do otherwise. And he can't even give you that.

This is horrible, May. If you aren't able to keep your resolve with him working at you like this (and I understand it) then he or you need to go.

And I don't mean 'keep your resolve' as in 'decide to leave him' - I mean keep your resolve of taking all the space you need, seeing things absolutely clearly for as long as you need, and making a decision. If you make a decision to stay with him and turn a blind eye to him continuing to cheat on you, and even, for the sake of peace, pretend you believe his lying until you get your consulting business up off the ground, well, that would be one of your choices. But YOU get to make it without this interference.

I find it quite sinister and controlling that he can't let you have that, given the severity of what he has done.

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