Moving On Rather Slowly

[may22]

Last Thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2897630&page=all

Quick recap-- H had a 2 year long distance PA. Two daughters, aged 8 and 10. I found out full extent at the end of December, we went through six weeks of DC and incredible ambivalence where H wanted both AP as a lover and me as best friend/co-parent. He decided to end the A in mid-February though his decision was based more on the kids, inability to continue the current situation for all of us because of the overwhelming stress, and AP's desire to have children (she's 11 years younger than me and H firmly does not want more children) rather than a desire for me as a wife. We had four months of getting along very well, enjoying family time with the lockdown, planning for the future. We stopped MC during lockdown as no childcare and H wanted to take a break given the potential stress of MC and quarantine together. Then a week and a half ago I found out that three weeks ago he got back in touch with AP-- she'd texted him to say she was moving on, he reached out to see if she was OK with the protests in her area-- and all of a sudden we have rewound back to January. He's scared he is going to miss out on this one chance to be happy, back to his fantasy D scenario where we remain best friends and we co-own the house and have dinner together with the kids, insisting that we make this decision together. (Which I refuse to do.) Blah blah blah. Oh, and AP loves him sooooo much she is willing to give up the chance to have children to be with him.

When I just typed that, I can't believe it has only been a week and a half since I was whiplashed from thinking I was maybe, maybe tiptoeing close to piecing with my H, planning a new consulting business for myself, and exhausting most of my mental energy on all the crazy and awful things that are happening in our country and our world right now into this awful gut-wrenching place again. At least I've lost those 7 lbs I'd put back on over quarantine.

Working on defining and enforcing my boundaries, exploring and embracing my anger towards H, really trying to think about whether or not this is someone I want in my life any more than absolutely necessary, let alone as my H. And, took a couple major steps today, consulting an attorney and talking to an IC (I had one appointment back in January with someone, didn't really click, and felt MC would suffice for me at that point. Now have weekly sessions set up with this IC who I like). I've been sitting in what splitting up might look and feel like, the concrete steps I'd want to take to move forward, and am becoming more and more comfortable with the idea.

May, I get the sense you're uncomfortable with the word abuse being applied to your situation. Does it help to think of it in a literal sense - the exploitation of a power imbalance for personal gain? Or as wikipedia puts it - the improper usage of a thing to unfairly gain benefit. In your case, it's covert rather than overt.

Traumatic bonding can occur between the abuser and victim as the result of ongoing cycles of abuse in which the intermittent reinforcement of reward and punishment creates powerful emotional bonds that are resistant to change and a climate of fear. I do wonder if this resonates with you at all.

Hi Scout, thanks for posting this. The literal meaning of the word does apply to my situation, for sure. Emotional manipulation, absolutely. My H knows all my pain points, mostly around the children, as well as how to butter me up (I'm a total acts of service girl) and so is pushing those buttons to guilt me into... what? I guess that is where I get a little stuck. No amount of talking on his part is going to get me to be okay with some sort of polygamous crazy train world that he imagines is possible. The current situation is not exactly fun for anyone. He's a wreck, I'm a wreck, kids are watching more TV than they should. (They actually think that part is pretty awesome.) I guess maybe he's sneaking calls or texts to AP and getting his jollies off on them, while still having the family home or whatever? I mean, that is pretty pathetic (for all of us). Maybe this is why I'm shying away from the term "abuse" since he isn't getting what he wants. I'm the big bad wife that won't sign off on his ticket to Fantasyland.

The other thing is as much as I've rolled my eyeballs at his narrative that I controlled everything in our R-- which *is* patently untrue-- I will say that to the extent there has been a power imbalance in our R, it probably has always resided a little more on my side than his throughout our M. I think that power struggles were part of the dynamic that led to the SSM-- not overt power struggles, but little things. It really is only since the A and explicitly since he told me what was going on and I made my position (far too) clear, that I wanted to stand for the M-- that the power shifted so dramatically to him. That isn't to excuse his current behavior at all, but it isn't part of a long-term pattern or cycle. And through all of this I'm learning a lot about my own controlling and manipulative behaviors that I wasn't even really aware of.

The IC conversation was helpful, and I think I can enforce my boundaries a bit better for having thought them through out loud with her. Alison, your boundaries posts have helped me so much here.

[SteveLW]

I understand the desire to be careful with the abuse label. My W accused me on and after BD, of having been abusive. Never physically, but she claimed I was emotionally abusive.

While I think that word gets overused in a lot of cases, and while I didn't like to see myself as an emotional abuser, it was a situation where her perspective was her reality. Certain my behavior over the years didn't make me innocent in those accusations. I had become an angry, bitter guy that would lash out. We had a SSM that weighed heavily on me. My W was never a great housekeeper. And before my D was born we shared the household duties. Though I probably did 60-70% of it only because I am a bit of a Type A, anal retentive, mildly OCD neat-freak. When my D was born we decided she would stay home and be a SAHM. And over the years her 50-60% housekeeping slipped to even less than it was prior to us having our D. I was routinely coming home from work, working 8-10 hours, and spending nearly an hour both ways to work, and doing a large amount of the housework. And I became pretty vocal about my displeasure over it. I would do it angrily, saying things under my breath. And would be passive-aggressive with her over it (I suffered from a moderate case of NGS). It got even worse when I took another job for a few years where I was working an avg of 70 hours a week, and at times 100+ hours/week.

By time BD in 2017 rolled around, I had been isolating myself from the family, in the MBR watching TV or being on my work laptop working. The only time I wasn't was when I was participating in my pastimes out of the house. Gun range, hunting, and affiliated activities (outdoor shows, working on the hunting property, etc).

Looking back, while I was not well-mannered, I certainly didn't feel abusive. But again, I cannot fault my W for feeling that way. So since that time I've learned two things:

1) Poor behavior can be viewed as abusive
2) The abused do not always recognize that they are being abused.

That second point is where my W was at. She didn't feel like I was abusive (she grew up in a home with a father that physically abused her mother), but as she discussed things with other people (her friends, EAPs etc) they would point out that what I was doing was abusive. And while I don't agree with it, again my behavior certainly didn't mean I could claim innocence either.

I think #2 above is important to keep in mind though. Being a doormat is never fun. Even if it isn't real abuse, sometimes LBWs especially don't recognize it. And while it may not feel all out abusive, it certainly is mistreatment. We can dismiss it as the WAS being angry, bitter, hurt, etc. I see LBSs that beat themselves up all the time. But the truth is that there is no excuse for the behavior of a WAS that mistreats, manipulates, lies to their LBS. So while I don't necessarily agree with you that he isn't being abusive, I could concur not to use that word as long as you realize that what he is doing is NOT okay. And it sounds like you do.

[may22]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for sharing that part of your story. And I am fine (now, took me some time) with you or anyone using the term 'abuse'-- I believe that an affair in and of itself is abusive, no matter how you want to justify it. And whether or not I use the term abuse, the behavior he is displaying right now-- trying to get me to agree with him, talking about AP even when I've told him I don't want to hear it, saying that not being friends with him if we split is my choice, not his, and would negatively affect the girls-- that is all totally f-ed up behavior and no matter where it comes from, it is not okay and I need to respect myself and my own boundaries enough to put a stop to it. I don't need to listen to it. Someone said to me on here (wayfinder?) just because his ship is floundering doesn't mean I need to go down with the ship. I need to step off and get into my own lifeboat.

I like your IC. Your H has been jerking you around for months at his whim. I agree with your IC and others like Blu that getting in touch with your anger will be a good thing.

However you label it (I hate labels generally), your H is definitely emotionally manipulative. He constantly [censored] you into R talks. I think setting some hard boundaries to limit this behavior will help you greatly. If you don't change this pattern, he has no reason to change and like others here I think it's not healthy at all for you.

Thanks, U. I'm going to do this today-- bright line boundary on no more R talk, no A talk, no AP talk, no fantasy D talk. I will use Alison's phrases and if necessary physically remove myself from the room. Not because I think those conversations are possibly detrimental to our R or because it is the DB rule to avoid R talks. Because after a week or so of support from this board, the talk with my friend on the weekend, my IC yesterday-- it is emotionally damaging to me to listen to that BS. My own emotional safety and security has taken a major hit and I need to start building it back up, not continuing to let it get beat down. I simply don't want to hear it and won't.

The other experiment I'm going to try over the next couple of days (tell me if you think this is a bad idea) is instead of inputing the best possible motive to everything he says or does... like I normally do... I'm going to imagine it comes from the worst motivation possible. So, the acts of service, the compliments (ugh, Pommy, I got another one last night when I got home-- that bathing suit looks really nice on you, eye roll), trying to get me to laugh, etc.-- just him trying to make sure he keeps the may option stable and open so he keeps the power seat. The R/AP talk-- simply unacceptable, trying to guilt/goad/box me into making the decision for him by kicking him out or browbeat me into agreeing to his ridiculous fantastical threesome, and even listening to that garbage is validating him in some way.

Hope this works. Wish me luck.

[unchien]

The other experiment I'm going to try over the next couple of days (tell me if you think this is a bad idea) is instead of inputing the best possible motive to everything he says or does... like I normally do... I'm going to imagine it comes from the worst motivation possible. So, the acts of service, the compliments (ugh, Pommy, I got another one last night when I got home-- that bathing suit looks really nice on you, eye roll), trying to get me to laugh, etc.-- just him trying to make sure he keeps the may option stable and open so he keeps the power seat. The R/AP talk-- simply unacceptable, trying to guilt/goad/box me into making the decision for him by kicking him out or browbeat me into agreeing to his ridiculous fantastical threesome, and even listening to that garbage is validating him in some way.

I like this idea a lot. One thing I did in my sitch was start thinking about all the possible reasons my W was doing a certain thing. Pretty quickly I concluded I could not mind-read her, so I was wasting my time.

The compliments, etc. are incredibly manipulative.

Your H is a WAH. Except rather than walking away like most WAS's, he wants to keep you around as part of his preposterous unrealistic fantasy. So he's complimenting you, doing acts of service, mashing your buttons (again), just enough to placate you so he can continue down this road.

He also knows he can accuse you of being controlling as a way to engage in R talks.

It is manipulative behavior pure and simple.

[AlisonUK]

Hi May

You sound like you're in a good place. I went through a phase of openly challenging my H when he complimented me, bringing up the language his used in his abusive tantrums. 'No, you don't think I'm a good mum. You actually think I'm just like my own abusive father, that I've ruined our children to the point where you consider one of them 'emotionally retarded' and that I'm capable of putting nobody or nothing above myself.' It was probably petty and unnecessary, but on the other hand, it got it straight in my mind what and who I was dealing with and what they thought of me, or were willing to say and refuse to apologise for, even in calmer and apparently affectionate moments. Your husband might think you look good in a bathing suit (I bet you do!) but he also thinks you're being mean to him by not giving him a free pass on an open marriage. Good to always balance once fact with the other and draw your own conclusion.

[may22]

I mean, I do look decent these days in a bathing suit Nothing like a year's worth of BDs to get rid of those last 15 lbs. I also spent some money on nice ones back in the fall which makes a difference too. Anyway, it is not moving me. It feels ridiculous. Not that he has ever said anything remotely negative about the way I look-- he's always been complimentary-- but it just feels like he is laying it on a bit thick.

He has been respectful, no trying to have any R talks the last 24 hours, just been kind and decent. Kind of annoying right as I decided to try to interpret his words as coming from a negative place, I haven't gotten much to work with. I missed a text from him last night wondering where I was with the kids and then he called a little after their bedtimes to see where we were (we were just leaving), he was nice and cool about it, just wondering what was up. I got home and he was laying in bed reading the Shirley Glass book. No words exchanged about it or anything. He volunteered to put the kids down so I could take a bath. (OK. It is just HARD to look at this as manipulation. The kids had made cookies and left the kitchen in a gigantic, crazy mess. like BAD. I went out with my good friend and our kids, had a blast, hung out for hours and hours with food and wine and chitchat, came home late to a spotless house, he gets the kids down so that I can take a bath, have a glass of wine, and go to sleep with zero bothering about R talks or anything. And it was honestly nice to have a tiny break from what is happening.)

But you guys!!! Today was my Botox appointment and I'd made sure earlier he could take the kids-- mentioned I had an appointment and didn't say what it was, he didn't ask. I got ready to leave and said hey, I'm leaving-- why-- I have an appointment-- oh right, what is it? I didn't respond. He asked again, dentist? I said no. He said, where are you going? Just tell me! I said it was no big deal but I didn't want to tell him. He kept pressing (nicely), is it safe? (yes) what if you get in a car accident on the way there? I need to know where you are! (if this wasn't Covid you would have no idea) Anyway, I kept saying look, it isn't a big deal, I just don't really feel comfortable telling you and maybe we can talk about it later. As I walk out the door he goes, I know. You're getting Botox, aren't you? UGH. This is something I wanted for a decade and we talked about off and on for awhile. I seriously considered it for my 40th BD but H was pretty against it and I decided it wasn't worth it. We probably haven't talked about it in TWO YEARS. This a-hole knows me SO WELL that he f-ing figures it out before I even walk out the door.

he called me in the car and asked why I didn't tell him. I explained minimally the situation-- been getting it for a year, since all this started because it was for me. I didn't feel like it was something I needed to tell him. I had been conflicted since February since we were in a different place and I felt like it was dishonest to do it without telling you, but also didn't really feel comfortable telling you. We got off the phone because a friend was trying to set up a zoom call for our daughters. he texted me Hey, you shouldn't have stopped getting it in February. I would have liked that you had done something for yourself, even if it isn't something I fully support. I responded, I wasn't planning on stopping.

So... still knows me really well. Good at pushing my GD buttons if that is what is going on. Will keep focusing on my boundaries and analyzing his behavior and words with my new filter.

[AlisonUK]

He really really can't let you say no to him, can he? Even when the 'no' is about your own privacy around something minor and nothing to do with him.

And when he cleans his own house after his own kids have been doing something fun, and when he puts his own kids to bed, that isn't worthy of a medal. He's parenting to a usual basic standard. It's good that he is doing that rather than not, but it's STANDARD that you'd expect from a co-parent, not a sign that he's not any of the things you also know him to be.

Hang in there May. Looking hot in your swimming cossie!

[may22]

True.

God, my standards are low, aren’t they.

(And most of my friends would swoon for half of what H is doing. I feel like we have all been duped. Or at least I have.)

[AlisonUK]

No, your standards aren't low. I'm only suggesting that you look at this with very clear eyes. It is good he is a present and attentive father and is able to do his fair share around the house. That doesn't make a marriage. I think he wanted you to see him reading the book and it is very good you didn't remark on it.

[Pommy99]

May you’re doing brilliantly and seem to be a level above all is nonsense now. I’m totally eye rolling at the yoga pants and costume compliments!! I pulled H up on this at one point and he said something like just because I don’t find you sexually attractive doesn’t mean you don’t look good in your underwear!! A real back-handed compliment! The compliments were always dished out when I was distancing, when his Plan B was being destabilised by me.

Scout mentioned the trauma bonding and intermittent reinforcement. This is something I discussed at length with my IC. When I read up on it at home, it really hit a nerve and I started to understand the toxicity of the situation I was in and how I was being manipulated by H. IC had me draw a 15 month timeline of the rollercoaster, which really aligned to the pursuer-distancer exchanges, and the events leading up to each peak and trough. I found it really helpful and I think it was those discussions and seeing it visually that really helped me understand how badly I needed to get off his rollercoaster. We also talked about triangulation, which was another manipulative trait that I felt I was being played for.

Keep moving forward May, you deserve so much more. Well done on the Botox conversation! I’m eye rolling again at the “why didn’t you tell me?” In my head I would have been sarcastically apologising for not meeting his honesty and transparency standards !!