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A weeklong escape by the sea sounds dreamy, good for you for making it happen for you and the kids. Space could be exactly what your situation needs right now. Nothing like long evening strolls to clear your mind and bring you back to the root of your heart’a needs and desires.

Reading your posts, I see such a strong, determined, analytical and wise person speaking her truth. But I am going to play devils’ advocate for a minute, take it or leave it (but love me nonetheless as it is all with good intention). You have come so far from the person who would play the game of weepy wife manipulating H to get the emotional attention you want and need (I don’t see it as such myself, but you have mentioned something like this in your posts over the months). Something that I am always working on myself is trying to be aware of the pendulum swing. For example, I have a loving, strong mother who due to my adoring Dad’s work schedule, was often left for weeks alone with us kids. She was good at boundaries and knew that she needed alone time, space and to execute her own free will when she could. Which ended up looking somewhat like abandonment when she would travel or take time for her own self-care. I stepped into her shoes (as the oldest of four kids) and often took on the role of ‘caretaker’ to my dad and siblings when she was gone (and mind you, she didn’t leave us all that often, but enough). So for me, showing love is taking care of other people in the absence of a primary caretaker. I won the love game because she was grateful and my siblings and father were grateful. But what that turned into as I became a wife and mother is that I am the caretaker (recipient of ALL the love and gratitude) and didn’t know how to take care of myself (and we all know how that story ends up...). So the pendulum swing from my ‘good at self-care mama’ to me is that we have taken opposite approaches. And neither are completely healthy.

So my challenge is this: is your current space a result of an extreme pendulum swing (I need H to SEE me and my emotions for validation -> he’s unhealthy and our relationship is as well -> I need to be the opposite of what I have been in our relationship?). This could be a major over-simplification on my part, and I know that abuse is a thing with H, so I am not suggesting that you back down from your boundaries. But is there a self-protecting side of you that is unwilling to meet H somewhere closer to his side of the story? Not even the middle, per se, but a few feet? And again, all I know is what you share, So you may be reaching out or finding common ground IRL and it’s not meeting your needs so you know the answer to this already. In which case, keep doing what you are doing because whatever it is, you sound strong and amazing. And at the end of the day, only you know what you need to do to save YOU.

And of course, this is all in the light of saving something (a M) that you may or may not be willing to sacrifice yourself for. That it really is in your court to decide if his efforts are good enough. So again, take this or leave this train of thought of mine.

Xxx

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But is there a self-protecting side of you that is unwilling to meet H somewhere closer to his side of the story?


Hi Sage, thanks for your message. I THINK this is the heart of it, and I will try to answer, but if you think I am misunderstanding you, please leap in and correct.

My H's story is that I was needy, overdependent and during my PND and after his EA I treated him terribly. He said he felt like his only role in life was to manage my emotions. He's absolutely right on this. He doesn't really admit to abusive behaviour, but he will say this state of affairs, caused by me, got him so angry and in his anger he wasn't really responsible for what he was doing, I was, because I was the person who had made him angry. So I meet him 100% on his side of the story about my behaviour, and I don't doubt his abuse came from anger, but I don't take responsibility for that, only for continuing to allow it for so long.

I've changed all those behaviours that triggered his anger and I also no longer accept his abuse, which isn't really in the face of emotional neediness any more, but just me having some kind of mind of my own, gently disagreeing, or him just being sullen and drunk and wanting a punch bag. I don't allow it any more.

I know what you mean about pendulums, but isn't that what a 180 is?

I'm not cold or invulnerable. I have close friends, a much much closer relationships with both of my kids, a faith community etc. I don't broadcast my business, but I have a few friends I can speak to about what is going on with me, share fears and sadness, get comfort and suggestions and validations.

H is more or less an empty cupboard. It isn't that he can't comfort in distress, or validate anger (I get how that could be difficult for him and triggering of old, unhealthy situations) but he can't even smile when I have good news.

If I am missing your point or you have some suggestions for me, let me know. I am not totally sure what you mean by moving closer to his story - I do share his story about my part in the past - he doesn't have a story about his own part in the past because he is apparently not responsible for his behaviour or reactions - and in the present, I have no idea what he thinks is going on between us. Now and again he says all I do is argue with him and criticise him, and by that he means that now and again I have my own perspectives on how to raise our children or live our lives, and he isn't available for discussion or compromise. I think he presents me with two choices: ignore him and get on with my own life as I see fit, or obey him with a smile on my face, anticipating everything he needs but refuses to express as a need. I've tried the second and I hate it so I am going with the first and finding happiness there.

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Alison, I hope you have a wonderful holiday, it sounds pretty blissful! Your M can wait. One day either your H will move towards you and you can move towards him, or you can continue to drift on until you've had enough. You don't seem in any rush and are happy in your own self right now. That's the most important bit!

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I am happy in myself, Dilly - though sadly, getting significantly less sex than you are. I am very jealous!! smile

I have had a pretty full on week, getting ready for the holiday, sorting out house a bit, finishing up some stuff at work and arranging cover for what's important while I am away. We're just about packed up and looking forward to it.

H has been fine the last week or so. He is really very good around the house, despite his other flaws, and even though he's working really hard, he's done a lot around the house and with Youngest, and made it very easy for me to have GAL this week too. I find it easy to express genuine gratitude for him and I think he appreciates that. He's been very decent towards me in his language and behaviour, which has made this week easier, and I appreciate that too (though I'm not about to start thanking him for keeping a civil tongue in his head!)

I have been keeping an eye on what I DON'T say. There's very little on these boards about piecing - though I am not sure if that is where my heart is - but I am sure a lot of the stuff we don't say - the STFU that is so important after BD - needs saying and discussing properly and carefully during piecing. I can let things go - minor domestic annoyances, differences in opinions, him being a bit grumpy or snappy after a night shift. That all feels an appropriate part of living peacefully with another person and I can tell - when I am a bit untidy or can't park the car or cook something that he doesn't like - he does the same thing, and I appreciate that.

But there are some things that I either have to say, and have heard, and have him take action on, or I need to accept they will never change, and make a decision based on that.

I am really not sure we ever got into piecing, as I was so busy validating, doing my 180s and Sing TFU that the stuff that was really important to me - the reasons why I was so desperate for him to get out of the house - have never been appropriately addressed. That's a lesson to me.

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Hi Alison,

I know I read too much on all this stuff but I've read over and over that trying to work through infidelity without a really good MC is nearly impossible, that it is like doing brain surgery as a layperson. I imagine that for you, the EA was a part of it but the repetitive, ongoing betrayal in his actions and words towards you both before and after the EA is even harder to address than the EA. I wonder if once the EA happened, it allowed you to take your unexpressed anger and resentment over his treatment of you and push it through the justified anger channel of the EA? Then your behaviors and the dynamic between the two of you between the BD of the EA and him moving out was partially the EA but maybe mostly everything else? I think I mentioned on my own thread reading the Gottman book about trust, and betrayal can happen in so many ways. I think his behaviors towards you-- the meanness, tantrums, belittling, weird mimicking-- constitute betrayal in a major way, since the person who you signed up to be your partner should have your back, not knock you down.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I agree that piecing (should any of us ever really get there) is complicated and probably really, really difficult to navigate without a skilled therapist. I imagine you have to work through so many difficult things both alone and together. And your H not even willing to continue with an IC is a big hurdle. My H just came to talk to me and said, if I stay, I feel like I'll be both having to deal with the regret/loss/wondering of what might have been with AP, but even more, I'll have to deal with my own behavior, what i did, what it means, who I am, how I feel, how to recapture my own identity in all of this. I don't know if I can do that. You forgiving me is going to be hard enough. Me forgiving myself-- I don't even know how to go about tackling this part. I was saved from responding by D8 coming in the room. But at least he has an inkling of a portion of the work of staying together... whether he is willing to do it or not, or even wants that, is another question. For you and your H, I don't know that your H has ever really grappled either with what it means to have a healthy R with you, how to deal with his own issues and insecurities in a healthy way without dumping everything onto you. I'm glad he has been helpful and kind and I think this week apart is going to be so fabulous for you.

xoxo M


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Just updating.

A lovely week away. Really nice and restful and calming. It wasn't activity packed, and there was a lot of lying around watching television, reading, messing about, playing games, but also some long walks and time by the sea. It was really great. I'd kind of promised myself that i would just take a break from being married (I don't mean go and find another man - just take a break from trying to find a way to be in healthy relation to H!) but the situation was on my mind and I found myself very anxious at some points. Anxious that H would be angry with me, anxious that this would be my life from now on, anxious about what he was doing / thinking / feeling while I was away. My detachment has been so great, but during the holiday it was - intermittent.

H, on his side, was very kind and nice and stayed in touch (I did not initiate but I was responsive). At one point he said 'nobody else would suit me except for you,' which is one of the most affectionate and heartfelt things he's said to me in a long time.

We have a pattern, I think - in that when we're quite distant (by my standards) he seems to relax, become more affectionate, less critical, and generally easier to be around. This makes him more attractive to me, so I draw closer and this seems to provoke behaviour that is unacceptable to me. I do genuinely feel this is a bit of the old push-pull at play, a bit of basic incompatibility (this plays out in our sex life too - I'm the HD partner for all kinds of closeness and connection, and he is sometimes responsive, never initiates, and if I initiate too much - conversation or affection or sex or any kind of closeness - he withdraws or lashes out in anger or nasty critical behaviour to make me go away. So I do go away, and when he feels safer / more recovered / less smothered, he makes his own tiny moves to come back close, and i'm so hurt or resentful by that point, that I can't respond. It's a really well established pattern being played out at lower intensity between us right now, but it is still there.

I think the key to this is GAL and detachment - whether we stay married or not - but I have no idea how to build a loving connection to a man who has such a low tolerance for company. I think we may just be basically incompatible in this area. I think I can be too intense for him at times, and I have made changes to dial that back, but i can't exist in a marriage that only functions if I hold my breath and make myself small whenever I am in the room with him.


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I imagine that for you, the EA was a part of it but the repetitive, ongoing betrayal in his actions and words towards you both before and after the EA is even harder to address than the EA. I wonder if once the EA happened, it allowed you to take your unexpressed anger and resentment over his treatment of you and push it through the justified anger channel of the EA? Then your behaviors and the dynamic between the two of you between the BD of the EA and him moving out was partially the EA but maybe mostly everything else? I think I mentioned on my own thread reading the Gottman book about trust, and betrayal can happen in so many ways. I think his behaviors towards you-- the meanness, tantrums, belittling, weird mimicking-- constitute betrayal in a major way, since the person who you signed up to be your partner should have your back, not knock you down.


You have hit the nail on the head here, May. I don't think about the EA much at all any more. What hurt the most wasn't the actual actions - it was short lived, but intense - there was a LOT of contact over messaging and secret meetings, but I clocked what was going on fairly quickly. He denied it for a while, tried to gaslight me and say I was getting depressed / anxious and should see a doctor (!) and when presented with evidence, became more or less remorseful and transparent. I do understand why it happened. What hurts - and still does hurt, really - is that he was very definitely the pursuer in that dynamic - he was attentive and eager and WANTED closeness and interaction with her - and he never ever pursues / woos / courts me in that way (with me he's a very much silent-acts-of-service should be a good enough replacement for kind words and a sex life kind of man) and when I attempt to court him, he is generally overwhelmed by it and does the withdrawal / lashing out thing. I find THAT much much harder to come to terms with - and the ways he sees fit to behave when he's lashing out - than the EA itself. I think I do generally trust he isn't in touch with her any more - I don't snoop but I could if I wanted to, and he's transparent about where he is and what he is doing. But I don't trust that he wants me in the way he wanted her. I don't feel courted or desired and wanted in any way. I feel that he's committed to doing the right thing. I know everyone has to start somewhere and that commitment is a lot - but still, isn't not being loved. I don't feel loved. We have had the 5 Love Languages talk. I know he feels loved when I do domestic work that gives him rest and space, and then leave him alone to rest and recharge. He knows how I feel loved, and I do think he tries to do that, and I can see him now and again attempting to show empathy by delivering these 'empathic phrases' in a fairly rehearsed and robotic way, but he's cold.

There's not much on this board for piecing. I am going to read Blu's old threads, as I know she struggled with piecing and had the sense of disappointment that I had for a long time. He's been back just under a year and I think I am heart-deep disappointed and my marriage is most peaceful when I am in full on distancing, self protection and GAL mode.

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Hi Alison -

I'm still reading along even though I don't post much.

I'm glad you had a restful holiday - it sounds like something you needed. Sometimes removing ourselves from day to day life is very helpful.

I only have one pertinent thing to comment on - it's the part where your H struggles to show you love. Maybe it's a man/woman thing or maybe it's something else - I am definitely no expert here - but I too have in the past struggled how to show my W love and affection in the way she may have wanted.

During our M, I always felt clumsy and weird and that I was either doing too much or not enough. I grew up learning that my emotions and feelings were not valid and did not matter, so there was a huge developmental part of my life that is just a big empty void. I grew up thinking it was normal to be that way - you don't know what you don't know, right? I have spent the past 2 years coping with and trying to overcome this hurdle - it is proving to be one of my life's biggest challenges/growth opportunities.

It's not that I didn't love W - it's that I didnt know how to show it. I hope that makes sense.

I don't know your H's history with the past - but perhaps that might be a small part of what's going on here too? Just a thought -

Anyway - I'm glad you're feeling more even and rested. smile

Take care and stay strong.

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Hi Alison,

Here is the thread on piecing.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832573&page=1

You are correct that there is not very much info on the topic in general. I wonder if that is because so few of us make it there, people might stop posting when they get to that point, and also I would add for me that visiting here became painful reminders of the past when I was trying to move forward. You can see how much I struggled with that when you read my threads.

So Sandi and myself laid out these lists of conditions that we believe you need in order to piece an M back together again. I am going to reread what I wrote and see what I can add now that i am a couple more years out. I am not sure there is any one size fits all approach, but I do stand firmly that it takes TWO committed people. The common thread in all of our situations when we come to this board is that we are the only one that is willing. So the focus shifts to "how can I get my partner willing or how can I get them back." And sadly, we cannot control that. We can only let them go and become a better partner/person our-self and just hope that they see that and decide to come back.

I am continually impressed at your insight into yourself and your M dynamics! You describe the classic distance-pursuit scenario playing out between you guys again and again. And you describe frustration that as you pull back, he softens and shows improvements, you find yourself re-attracted, but you also know once you move towards him he will soon become shitty. So, if you want my advice, you stay right where you are and you don;t move. You don't have to pull back but you don't have to move in. You can accept his pleasant and loving actions from your safe space. You can continue to wait and take your time. As you can see this takes sooo long to unfold, what is a little more time anyways?

Can you just remain in your safe space? This is a place for you and there is not a label for this -- such as, DBing, Ring, Piecing-- but you are holding a place for yourself that perhaps was lost in so many years of grief, fear and disappointment. Can you simply accept his loving and supportive behavior only? Take his lead. If he expresses anger or frustration, you can pull back further. If he asks for more, you can share your fears and tell him you will no longer tolerate his cruelties ever again. It's as if you are very slowly retraining him on how you will allow him to treat you. Teaching takes time. Re-teaching takes even longer.

I do actually believe people can change. I have watched it happen with my H and with myself. The hard part is to see into the future at how very, very long this takes and how very slowly it can happen. We are not the same people we were 20 years ago, 10 years ago and even 5 or 2 years ago. But we can shape the people we will become in the future years to come. You never have to accept his shitty behavior again and you can also continue to do better yourself with or without him there. This will unfold in time.

Blu


“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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don't feel courted or desired and wanted in any way. I feel that he's committed to doing the right thing. I know everyone has to start somewhere and that commitment is a lot - but still, isn't not being loved. I don't feel loved. We have had the 5 Love Languages talk. I know he feels loved when I do domestic work that gives him rest and space, and then leave him alone to rest and recharge. He knows how I feel loved, and I do think he tries to do that, and I can see him now and again attempting to show empathy by delivering these 'empathic phrases' in a fairly rehearsed and robotic way, but he's cold.

Alison, I think my H could say the exact same words as you, here. He did say much of these same words with the IC yesterday. He doesn't feel loved by me. My LL are your H's and yours are my H's. He thinks I'm faking it to be physically close to him. He doesn't feel desired or wanted by me. I don't think I would respond as your H does, but I have often felt that the silent acts of service should suffice. I'm in a different place now, and I also feel committed to understanding and showing my partner in the future (whoever that may be) love in a way he feels and understands. I feel that step is one your H has yet to make, understanding that you are a different human being than he is, you have different needs and wants and desires, and his job as your H is to tell you he loves you in a way you get, not just in the way he would like to be told. That is his work to do and not yours, though I suppose if you want to you could tell him what you need and reinforce him for any baby steps in that direction.

So I worry about you that you'll always remain stuck here. Not quite bad enough to pull the trigger and go. Not really good enough to stay and be happy. I was so curious how this trip would be for you mentally, and it is interesting to me that you had some anxiety, lost a bit of the detachment, got pulled slightly back into the dynamic with your H. I was guessing you would take that space and continue to detach and move in that direction... I don't know why I thought that, but I did. I am just wondering why the space opened up a view back to the M for you, and all the attendant concerns, rather than the vista beyond.

I feel you are totally set to just cruise where you are, if you want to. You have all the tools you need to protect yourself and your boundaries and not let one single drop of your H's behavior affect you emotionally. But-- is that a life to live? The sentence about a marriage where you can only exist when you make yourself small made me sad.

I don't disagree with Blu's advice to just stay where you are. I think that is good advice. I guess I would just wonder what the trigger would be to decide where you are isn't good enough and what you might do then. I feel at some point, your H may be open to change... maybe Blu's point is that if you don't move, he'll eventually lean more and more in. Do you see yourself ever telling him, really, how you feel about all this? Telling him all the things you put in this post? would he listen? understand? be willing to change?


Me (46) H (42)
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4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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A LOT to think about here, and thank you to all who have posted.

Blu - I have never seen that piecing thread!! Thank you so much for posting it. I have given it a quick read and on my first impression, I think I have been going down the wrong track in lots of ways. I have still been mainly DBing. I think some of my DB stuff - like the boundaries and the validation - are things I plan on keeping in my life always. But I have not been doing many of the other things, and I can see already from the lists on that thread that I have been making many mistakes. I also really appreciate reading your early threads - not that I am happy that it was difficult for you and that on many days you wanted to throw in the towel - but it makes me feel a bit less crazy that after all those months of wanting him back, and faithful, and committed, now he is and I am still not happy. I think he feels that way too.

IronWill - yes, I think, as much as I hate to admit it, we do have a quite exaggerated Mars and Venus thing going on in our marriage. Though I have been incredibly explicit with him. 'Bring me flowers now and again. Kiss me now and again for no reason. Initiate sex now and again and tell me you enjoy what we do together. Tell me in words I am special to you. Tell me you think about me during the day now and again.' I have been as blunt as that. I don't think he does not know what I need or what makes me feel loved. He has stopped trying to shame me or mock me for those needs - which he used to do all the time - but he hasn't started meeting them. And after a lot of self examination, I don't think those needs are unreasonable. He needs to be left alone and I do that to the extent that most evenings we are not in the same room together after the kids are in bed.

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So I worry about you that you'll always remain stuck here. Not quite bad enough to pull the trigger and go. Not really good enough to stay and be happy. I was so curious how this trip would be for you mentally, and it is interesting to me that you had some anxiety, lost a bit of the detachment, got pulled slightly back into the dynamic with your H. I was guessing you would take that space and continue to detach and move in that direction... I don't know why I thought that, but I did. I am just wondering why the space opened up a view back to the M for you, and all the attendant concerns, rather than the vista beyond.


Yes, I worry about that too. I don't want to be unfaithful and I don't have any interactions with men that are not 100% honourable - but I am guarding myself very carefully from socialising with male friends alone because, to be honest, it wouldn't take much to turn my head at the moment. I have not told my H that - I don't want to make that sort of threat, and it would be received as such, but I can certainly see how in a SSM an affair can happen. It is always the wrong thing to do, and I will divorce him in preference to cheating on him, but I think the corrosive and painful effect of having basic intimacy needs unmet and being shamed for having them has a really awful affect on a person. I have great GAL and lots of friends and interests - I'm almost grateful for our separation as it forced me to take action there, and it was needed. But that doesn't take the place of an intimate partner, and that feeling of really being wanted by someone, chosen above all others. I do not have that. There's no saying I would have it if I left him, of course. I take care of myself and have a good job and wide social circle so I reckon I'm a bit of a catch - but there are many excellent women and men who don't want to be single, and are. I guess I am choosing a practically-based marriage over singleness right now, but I may not always.

I don't know why being away from home disrupted my attachment. I didn't have any feelings that he would be unfaithful or anything like that. It wasn't that kind of anxiety. it just seemed a major move on my part - planning and booking and going away on a vacation without him, without much discussion with him, without asking him. I wasn't trying to hurt him - I just knew I'd have a better time without his company, and I didn't see any need to consult him on what I spent my own money and free time on. It kind of showed up the real state of things between us right now.

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