It ended with a surprising insight I got in my IC, about the current state of affairs between me and my H not being enough. I had to sit with that a few days.
I also had some news - some very good news - about my work. I've got a significant pay rise and a lot more job flexibility and security than I did a few months ago.
So I am practically in an ideal position to make some drastic changes, if I want to.
But I have also been thinking about boundaries - about how tight my boundaries are with my H, and about how and in what ways my own boundaries are responsible for the acquaintance-level intimate bond we have with each other.
These boundaries were necessary when he was in an EA, blaming me for his EA, being emotionally and verbally abusive and manipulative. I don't think any of those things are happening right now, or at least, not with any degree of regularity.
I do think I have some lingering sense of betrayal and mistrust and fear around him and his reactions. This affects my behaviour.
I want to unpick this more in IC. But mainly I want to work on my own recovery after the bruising last couple of years - the pain and betrayal of the EA and the abuse - and see where my survival strategies have involved me refusing to get vulnerable with H and whether or not I can or want to change that.
Hi Alison, just wanna let you know that what you’ve posted in May’s thread is gold. I will probably go back and reread often. Thank you for your words.
That is really great news about work! I am going to guess that knowing you are in a place where some of the factors that may have held might open you up to feeling freer to consider implementing some changes in your R when the time is right. And, you have a right to feel those feelings of mistrust and betrayal and fear-- you came by them honestly. I think it is important to keep examining them, though, in the context of what is happening *now*, and be open to considering that perhaps some have served their purpose and can be freed.
xoxo
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I think that's right, May. For the longest time I was not able to have good boundaries with my H and I am still astonished at the behaviour I tolerated (and allowed from myself). It isn't like that any more, but I don't seem to be able to lower the boundaries even a little bit and I do struggle to forgive my previous self for being such a wailing doormat.
I am extremely suspicious of him. Not that he is in an EA - he is still very transparent over that - his tech and where he is and what time he will be back - it's kind of automatic for him now to let me know when he's leaving work, or if he's been delayed, and I trust and appreciate that (and if I left the house ever at the moment (!!), I'd be willing to do the same for him), and there are no 'signs' that I recognise from last time.
I am suspicious that he's not in this with me for the right reasons. That he is being dishonest with me and himself. I am worried he wants the house and the kids and the security and no social stigma of a failed marriage, and for that to work in his mind, he still needs to be this victim of a crazy wife, and that's a story I don't listen to or participate in any more, and I'm not sure we know any other dance moves to do together.
I know he responds really well to appreciation, and there are many things he is going that I can honestly and genuinely verbally appreciate right now. I also know he's having a really intense and traumatic time at work (this is not an excuse - he works in medicine and it's awful for him right now) and I need to weigh that in here, and know that his natural response is to withdraw and my natural response is to read the worst possible motivations into that.
Congrats on the job, that's great! Wailing doormat made me laugh! Speaking of laughter, is there any in your M? Can you put some in your M? Your M just seems so serious and you are not a serious person. Yes, being vulnerable is hard and scary (I'm realising this myself, and how little of myself I gave to my H) but perhaps the main way through is through humour instead of difficult R talks. Just a suggestion. Wanting domestic security and not to be Ded are no small motives, Alison. Not reason enough to stay married, but still powerful motives which you can build on maybe?
Not sure what I'm saying here, but you have to let down your walls little by little if your M has a chance of surviving. And he needs to do the same, I'm not sure if you think he's capable of that, but at least give him the chance instead of assuming the worst. And maybe with a little joke or two x
We do have a laugh sometimes. He likes to tease me, and often goes too far, but we did have this great friendship based on a similar sense of very dark humour and I do miss that. We used to tease each other a lot, and I guess he feels I go to far sometimes, as more often than not these days we both fail to be able to laugh at ourselves and our foibles the way we used to. I think about what FS said earlier in my last thread, about the energy being sucked out of the room because so much is being held back, and yes, I think we're both just tip-toeing around each other a lot these days.
Hard night tonight. Eldest in an irritable mood, and a minor disagreement over how to deal with it. I went upstairs to talk to Eldest, who'd stormed away over something trivial, then went for a shower. Then I came downstairs and said 'did you speak to Eldest? What can I do to support you?' (My precise words) which triggered one of his horrible rants.
I had RUBBISH boundaries. He was a nasty bully, ranting and interrupting. He gets in this state where he asks me a question, I try to answer, he interrupts me to do an impression of me giving an answer that he imagines (and 9 times out of 10 he is totally wrong in his ridiculous and deliberately belittling dramatisation of what he thinks I would have said if he'd allowed me to get a word in edgewise) then argues back at himself as if I'd said the thing he'd done an impersonation of me saying. He was totally irrational - going on like this, ranting and shouting, and accusing me of hysterics when I barely got a chance to say anything. I try to speak and he interrupts me, and when I carry on speaking over his interruption, he tells me 'You're not allowed to talk when I'm talking,' so I sit there being ranted at knowing that if I lose my temper or get upset, he's got precisely what he's after, which is this crazy emotional wife he thinks he's saddled with.
I sat calmly, asked him to keep his voice down at least six times, when he finally ran out of steam I said, 'I want to solve this with you rationally and have an adult conversation but you're acting like a bully and it isn't acceptable,' and that triggered another massive rant on his part - he said he wasn't responsible for any of his behaviour, that I'd caused it all by not doing what he said I should do regarding Eldest (it was an incredibly minor thing - I said both kids needed to get in the kitchen and do dishes before bed, and he wanted them to do it separately so they wouldn't bicker, but what that means is that Eldest does everything and Youngest hangs around waiting for him to finish and Eldest really resents that so I told them to get in there and do it together, and then they did start bickering) and if I wasn't going to do as I was told, I deserved everything I got. He really has an extremely immature and hateful, nasty side when he's riled. I was so furious I went out for a drive, and now I am back he's sleeping elsewhere, snoring away and stinking of beer.
What I should have done is what I usually do which is to leave the room the second he starts with even a tiny bit of his rage-performance. I guess I thought if I could take care of my own emotions, stay calm and try and connect with him rationally, we'd be able to make progress and I could demonstrate I wanted to collaborate with him and that I cared about what he thought - I wanted to try something other than just leaving the room whenever he acts in a way I don't like. But when he's angry - and he really was angry - he's irrational and downright mean. He said Eldest was damaged, was emotionally retarded, was ruined by my awful parenting, that it was all my fault, that I was just like my own awful parents, that I was brain-dead as I kept on doing the same things and not learning from the consequences... I spoke over him at some point, and said something like, 'I understand what your issue is, but if you're not even going to let me get a word in, how can we fix anything?' - I raised my voice but I didn't shout or scream - then he laughed sarcastically and said I was screaming and shouting at him, having hysteria because I couldn't bear to be told what to do, etc etc.
I can see why he was frustrated with me. I didn't interfere with his parenting but I did tell the kids to do something I know he doesn't approve of and they did bicker a bit, and I told them to pack it in and get on with it, then went for a shower. I don't know. Maybe my judgment is off but this just seems like a really minor part of lockdown family life - kids squabbling over chores - and not the massive slight to his ego (he said 'you're constantly making a little b*tch out of me' which suggests he felt emasculated or something?) - he seems to think it is. I know I should validate his emotions, but he doesn't say 'I feel angry' he says 'Eldest is emotionally retarded because he's just like you and you have ruined him and I won't be blamed for what a failure he is going to be' and there's nothing in that I can validate. Perhaps it is better to get the kids to do their evening chores separately and his preference was better. But in his eyes my making a misjudgement there this entirely excuses the way he treated me and in my eyes it really doesn't.
I wish I hadn't exposed myself to that as I'm hanging in this marriage by a thread as it is and don't have much energy to forgive or overlook more of his bullying.
I used to get really frightened and panicky when he treated me like this and he treated me like this every single day for years. That fear of him went away, and was replaced by contempt - and even though these tantrums from him are much rarer than they used to be (I think the last time he was like this was about two weeks ago) I think there's still a really big part of me that thinks he's pathetic and isn't emotionally mature enough to control his anger or have a rational conversation when he feels offended. Now my contempt is fading too - and while I long for closeness and intimacy in my life, I am no longer at all certain I want it with someone with such entrenched behaviours and immature values.
I'm still a bit angry, still a bit sad, and just bloody bored of the whole cycle. I'll avoid him for a few days until he picks a fight with me or accuses me of sulking or not being able to take criticism, and I'll either pretend everything is fine or get upset or avoid him some more, or it will blow over, or I'll just quietly seethe with resentment until next time. If he's in a good mood he may do some acts of service that are supposed to stand in for an apology, and I'll either resentfully ignore them or reject them, or swallow my anger and pretend that someone bringing me a cup of tea is an adequate way of taking responsibility for nasty, bullying and hurtful behaviours. At some point I will be able to say some version of 'you treated me appallingly and it isn't acceptable' and he'll say 'it's your fault for doing something I don't like' and I'll say 'I don't accept that' and the stalemate we're at - where I don't accept responsibility for his shortcomings and behaviours and he doesn't either means that the only way we function as a couple is if we keep as emotionally separate from each other as possible.
Because I am bored of the cycle and because I am part of the cycle, I need to do something different this time. I have no idea what that might look like.
I have a busy work day tomorrow, and he's not on shift in the day as he's working overnight. Which means he will be around during the day. I plan to avoid / ignore / so I can work and enjoy my day, then spend the evening having a nice family Friday night with the kids while he's at work.
That's really rough. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. Yes, it is probably one of the most stressful times right now for just about every human being on the planet, so throw in some marital difficulties and it is truly unbearable.
I'm sure you have already thought about the various paths in front of you. It does sound from an outsider's perspective that your H needs to be in IC to deal with his issues. It is really not okay to treat people the way he is treating you, and to say the things he has said. Does he realize he has a problem?
I think I've told you before that my H used to have some similar issues to your H, though to a much lesser degree (he never would get into name-calling, but he can get unreasonably angry and mean about relatively small things). For years, this behavior was a big factor for me in the SSM (though he thinks the SSM also fed into it, a non-virtuous circle) and I thought it was our biggest problem/ HIS biggest problem. He had issues at work also with people thinking he was an a-hole. For the whole first year of the A, he was worse and worse and it was from my perspective why we finally went to counseling, because he was such a jerk. We spent a lot of time in counseling on this subject and finally the MC recommended that he see an IC, which he did about a year and a half ago. Again, I thought for his anger management issues, he wanted to use it to figure out WTF he was doing in an affair and what he was going to do about it.
All that being said-- he HAS worked on this in IC for the past year and a half, along with the lying and ambivalence about the A. Of course his IC is not responsible for helping him to do the "right thing" in terms of the A-- her primary goal is his mental health-- and TBH I think she is an echo chamber here reinforcing his fantasy with AP, saying things like she thinks his mental health would be better if he was with the person he really loved, and that she doesn't believe I would really stop being H's friend-- but she has consistently encouraged him to tell the truth, and also has worked with him quite a bit on his anger and how to manage it productively. I think between him working with her on this and my no longer pouring gasoline on the fire when he does get angry, those really mean outbursts hardly ever happen now. (I hadn't realized my own role in escalating these incidents until I tried as a 180 not to react... and was shocked how much better they got.) I also think to some extent it is a learned response-- he gets some stress relief out of it when it happens. Learning alternative methods of releasing that stress and finding it works can help to break those habits. But it is difficult and it takes time, and of course your H would need to recognize it as a problem and be willing to work on it.
One other probably stupid little thing I did if he went off the rails was pick up my cell phone and start recording a voice recording of our fight. It wasn't as frontal as taking a video, like I was trying to document HIM, but recording our conversation. In the moment it was not received well, nor, to be honest, was it meant well (I think I said something like I'm going to record this for MC to prove what an a-hole you are) but it really did make both of us think more about our words, and later on I could narrow my eyes and pick up my phone like I was going to do it again and he would stop and think about what he was about to say. I'm not sure you can do that in your sitch, as your H seems beyond the pale in terms of what he is saying to you and I don't know how he might be provoked with something like that. But, if you do decide to talk about it with him instead of ignore it, maybe, just maybe, it could be a tool you suggest to say maybe we can record one of our conversations to either listen to after the fact when we've calmed down and see where we each might have gone too far, or just the act of knowing you're being recorded can help us be more thoughtful about the words we choose. This might be a totally terrible suggestion. I just give it as it was a helpful weird little thing I tried.
The other thing that H was the one to actually bring up, not me, was that it was not healthy for the children to witness fights like this. And that was a huge motivator for him to stop, more so than anything else. Would your H be moved by that? That no matter how much he thinks he is justified in talking to you like this, no child should ever hear their father talking to their mother with those words?
I'm sorry, Alison. I hope you can take some time for yourself and recover from this.
I do agree that the only option to you in the moment is to disengage. You can't validate stuff like that. Maybe I can tell you are angry, I'm sorry I didn't take into consideration that you might have felt like we weren't being a team (or whatever you can say honestly in the moment) but I refuse to be spoken to like that and I'm leaving. I'm sure you al
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Sorry, Alison, I just had another thought. (Also I just realized I didn't actually finish my last post. I meant I'm sure you already do this to some degree, but wonder if you could put a tiny bit of responsibility on your end, as long as you feel it-- even though his behavior is NOT condoned by you-- just to set an example.)
If, and only if, you choose to bring this up with him, here's something else you might try. I know that with my H, I usually would say something along the lines of "It isn't acceptable for you to treat me that way" and he would feel like I was the parent chastising a child. It really got his goat and generally made him feel defensive and we didn't accomplish much, except for a sulky half-a$$ed apology and both of us still feeling badly. When I decided to try a 180 on this and approach it from my perspective-- hey, it really hurt me when you said those things. Do you really think XYZ? And it made all the difference-- he said I'm sorry. I know I shouldn't say those things to you. I don't mean it. I don't know why I do it. And then we could get into a conversation about how to prevent it. Still then, I had issues when he would say "well you shouldn't do X then I wouldn't get angry" so it wasn't like a magic bullet, but it really helped even open the discussion. And for the record, I've become OK with a single like primal yell to let off steam, as long as it wasn't aimed at anyone. Prior I thought he should just be able to swallow it like I could. And that just isn't him. So kind of a compromise.
The other thing we talked about was the Gottman experiment from the love lab where, when couples were fighting and their heart rates got too high, the experimenter would stop them and say "our recording equipment is malfunctioning-- can you please stop talking for a moment while we get it back online?" And then they would wait until their heart rates dropped down to a certain rate (I can't remember exactly what it was) and then let them keep going. And each time the argument was mightily defused. I shared this with my H, who thought it was pretty interesting too, and we have tried it-- saying "I need to take a break, I feel flooded" and then taking one. I bet honestly that would help him a LOT if he could do it.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Alison, you are so wise and capable of understanding the nuances in your relationships (H, your kids, even yourself!). And the advice you give to others is so incalculably lucid, loving and so true. You are the kind of woman I would be dear friends with IRL. So please take this as if I am a close friend challenging your worldview with the utmost love and respect for who you are, even if I don’t know you IRL.
Do you love your H? For who he is completely, f***ed up as he is right now, not just love in the past tense (all those good memories and shared history together), but in this moment? Is your love conditional on him behaving a certain way or meeting some expectations? And if it is a conditional love, are those expectations expressed to him? In a way or language he can understand? There are no wrong or right answers here.
If your love is conditional, what are you going to do if he can’t meet your expectations? You are in a cycle of wanting more, craving things he isn’t giving you. What’s the end game? Suffer this for the sake of your kids? Work on taking all of H’s poor behaviour on the chin until there’s a breaking point within you? Where will that leave you? What is your breaking point? When are you worth more than the suffering you are experiencing? You will be an amazing catch to anyone in this world if you were to move on. An amazing person will be worthy of you, whether it’s H or someone else.
And maybe there are enough good moments in between all the bad, not worthy of sharing because they are few and far between or negated by the contemptuous actions he takes, and those good moments keep you on the end of the hook because you ‘see’ glimpses of the ‘real’ H shining through from time to time? That’s OK too. I would keep fighting if that were the case in my sitch.
You mentioned something on my thread that I have been thinking about all day: something along the lines of not being an obstructionist in the face of piecing my M back together. Are there ways you are still being an obstructionist? Or has that boat sailed in your R?
You are so incredible and worthy. Take all those generous, moving words you share with others and hold some of it for yourself. You will be fine, with or without your H.
I agree he could use IC. He went for a while, then ended it over text. I don't know what they discussed and he won't go again. I met her, and she was a direct woman, and when I did meet her I told her that the way he treated me when he was angry (and I described it directly and honestly) was a massive issue for me. I don't know if she challenged him on it or not. I do know he really really didn't want me to go for a joint session with him.
He doesn't think he has a problem. When he's calm, he'll say what he needs to work on is standing up for himself more and making sure he has more time alone. He never says that he feels he needs to work on his anger or the way he speaks to me when he is angry. His general opinion is that if I behaved better, and I got Eldest to behave better, then he'd have no reason to be angry. This is abusers 101 and I know it.
Things I have tried - other than just getting out of the room:
Telling him it hurts me and makes me feel unloved. His response when angry is to mock me and laugh. When he's calm, he'll say well he feels unloved when I don't do what he wants me to do, that I don't give him enough time alone, that I bring it on myself.
Recording him. I did try this May! He became very odd, and started 'performing' into the phone, outlining for an imaginary audience everything he thought was wrong with me (I'm damaged, I'm messed up, etc etc.) I deleted the recording unlistened to because I couldn't bear to put myself through it again.
Asking him, in calm moments, if he would consider seeing a doctor for stress and anxiety (which felt like less confrontational ways of saying 'anger management issues'). His response: he wouldn't be stressed if I didn't do the things he didn't want me to do.
Trying logic. 'If you're not responsible for your behaviour when you're angry because I make you angry, does that not also apply to Eldest and to me? When Eldest speaks disrespectfully and slams doors, do we allow him to blame his behaviour on you or me or Youngest because he's angry with us? If I act badly, does that suddenly become okay because you've made me angry? Are you the only one who gets a carte blanche on this?'
Also, along the same lines, asking him to get control of himself when he's ranting. He'll tell me he is perfectly in control, and I say well then you need to choose better and be responsible for your choices. Then he'll say I'm making him do it. I say if I have that power, I'd now like to 'make' you speak to me with respect and in a solution focussed way, and he'll laugh at me. I don't bother trying to be rational with him when he's ranting any more. It's like trying to reason with a three year old.
Telling him I struggle to respect him or feel love for him, and struggle to want to be intimate with him, when I have all the ways he's treated me in anger and the fact that he's perfectly okay with treating me that way, and holds me responsible for both causing it and stopping it. He shrugs and tells me he's perfectly okay with keeping himself to himself. I am not saying I with-hold sex - I'm the HD partner - but I do tell him that when he initiates, all I can think about is his angry face. He tells me fine, he won't initiate then, and he generally doesn't.
Challenging him. When he's given me a compliment and seems in a good mood I have tried responding with 'no, you don't think I'm a good mum. You think I've damaged our children and you believe I'm just like my violent and abusive father, despite the fact I don't shout at them and have never laid a hand on them in my life,' or 'no, you don't admire my success at work. You think I'm a failure and that I'm brain-dead.' He will generally roll his eyes and claim I am picking a fight and the discussion then becomes about my inability to take a compliment and experience love because of how messed up I am, rather than the way his nasty words sit around in our marriage and he is unwilling to take them back or apologise for them.
Threatening to leave him if it happens again. He's told me to go ahead, and nobody is making me stay in the house. Asking him if he'd consider going back to the flat he rented while we were S. He says he's not being separated from Youngest and his home because I can't cope with him having opinions.
I've told him he's hurting the children. He says he only gets angry when I am in the room, and if I leave there's nothing for the children to see. (This is true and I do this most of the time.) I've said he's trashed his relationship with Eldest and as the parent and the adult he needs to show some love to start mending bridges. He says he's not doing that until and unless Eldest gives a full and detailed apology for all of his behaviour starting in year 7. It is a ridiculous thing to want and makes me feel contempt for him.
I've asked him if we can have a solution focussed conversation about the issues that are important to him (laying aside anything I want or feel about his angry behaviour.) I've told him it is important to me that he feels respected and that he gets what he needs in our marriage. Even if I come to him calmly and when he is calm, he will generally roll his eyes, get sarcastic, tell me I am taking too long to say what I am trying to say, time me using his mobile phone ('you get three minutes of my time, talk quickly...') or say he isn't engaging with me to solve it because then I will use that to expect a similar response to any issues I have, and that it is manipulative behaviour.
Addressing it - for four years now - with an IC. Working on super tight boundaries. Looking at what is left between us when I do keep these boundaries. Asking myself if the remnants of a marriage like this is enough. Learning it is not.
Sage - I need to sit with your question. I think in the end the answer is no. I am furious with him today and I am out of ideas. I don't feel trapped but I also have no wish to try anything I've tried before, nor do the work of being his emotional punch bag. I'm mainly angry with myself for sitting there and taking it - I think talking on here about boundaries and realising that my boundaries were so high they were probably acting as an obstruction to the intimacy I wanted made me drop it a little with him, and sit in the room when ordinarily I wouldn't have done. I don't think he feels listened to, and I wanted to give him some room to be listened to as a first step. It was a terrible idea and kind of underlined to me that I need those super-high boundaries of mine. That he is not a person who deserves to have my heart.
Today, I feel like I am pretty much done. What that might look like right now in terms of concrete action in a lockdown I do not know.
