Moving On

[SamCal]

Man this whole "must remain friends" is ridiculous. When he brings this up or pushes it, pls remember that "no" is a complete sentence. If he pushes further, say you're not interested [in remaining friends]. Does he think yall are friends right now? As good as I know it can feel to launch into the whys, I think itd be better to just not engage. If he hasnt figured out why you dont want to be friends right now, hes not going to - plus hes just using that as a way to scuttle off guilt free. Idk if you've ever read about dont JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain).

What part of moving out scares him? Admitting to himself that hes being a $hitty person? (My guess)

He seems so irrational and out of touch with reality. I think if you go as dark as you can thatd be best for you - you dont have to engage in this crazy making crap with him, and he then no longer has the benefit of releasing those crazy thoughts to you. Hopefully he then implodes or tells someone not directly involved and they smack some sense into him. But the real benefit is you having time to yourself to think about what you want and your plans instead of absorbing these insane ideas of his.

[may22]

Hi SamCal,

He's scared to MO because he is scared about hurting the kids, hurting me, losing the house, losing me as a friend, losing these month-long family vacations he had planned with the kids, scared of the financial issues, scared of the social blowback, scared of being the a$$hole, scared the R with AP won't work out after all and he'll end up sad and alone. The last one I think scares him the most, even more than hurting the children. I'm realizing that he really needs to feel loved and needed to be whole. He described it like a drug she gives him to fill this need that he didn't even realize he had. Sounds unhealthy to me.

It's been great to have time today without him in the house. I'm really coming around to the idea that this is not what I want for myself. That "trying" with him is a waste of time. Was it somewhere on the boards I read you can't clap with one hand? I've been trying to clap with my hand for a long time. He isn't willing to put his hand out there. So I need to move on.

I think I'm ready to implement those next levels of boundaries-- limited contact as much as I can. no friendly interactions. Just business. Absolutely no more discussion of the R or the A. I still think I'm not going to give him the gift of asking him to move out of the MB. And I'll spend this next week really considering my options and sitting with this feeling of maybe he isn't such a prize after all. That if we did go through all this rigamarole, is he really the person I want to be with aside from him being the father of my children? Am I willing to compromise on that? And he's been telling me over and over he can't fall in love with me again, he can never let her go, he's afraid he'll cheat on me again... okay. I remember BluWave telling me long, long ago to believe him. So I think I will. If I take what he is saying at face value... there is no hope for R so why bother even trying. And, if he is the kind of person who chooses his own sexual gratification over the well-being of his children... he isn't someone I ever really need to be around anyway, let alone married to. It is worth a lot of money and grief to extricate him from my life.

I'm thinking about strategy too-- I think he'll be willing to give me a lot if I do this nicely, and even if we don't D right away I'm thinking about a post-nup agreement on some of the financial terms that we can execute when the time comes. Something I can talk about to the attorney. I'm also trying to sit with my long-held belief that I don't want to be the one to make this decision -- I want it to be him-- and see how I feel about either taking on that decision for him in order to get what I want in a settlement or spare myself any more of this cr@p, and how that may make me feel down the line.

It took me awhile but I'm getting there, guys. Help me hang tough.

Oh and... it is crazy-making that now he is deciding to read these marriage and affair books at this late date. he read the first section of Shirley Glass and so since she says 100% transparency is critical, decided to tell me what happened when he broke it off in February. Yep, they did sleep together, that is why he never wanted to tell me the details. (When I asked why he told me that nothing had happened that I'd be upset about, or only a 4-5 on a scale of 1-10, he said he'd slept with her before so it wasn't like this was all that different. Yes. this is the man I have spent 17 years of my life with, had two children with, and am now entangled with for life because of those two girls who I love more than anything.) But, it is helpful knowledge as it is helping me detach at a very fast pace.

[curtis7]

Oh and... it is crazy-making that now he is deciding to read these marriage and affair books at this late date. he read the first section of Shirley Glass and so since she says 100% transparency is critical, decided to tell me what happened when he broke it off in February. Yep, they did sleep together, that is why he never wanted to tell me the details. (When I asked why he told me that nothing had happened that I'd be upset about, or only a 4-5 on a scale of 1-10, he said he'd slept with her before so it wasn't like this was all that different. Yes. this is the man I have spent 17 years of my life with, had two children with, and am now entangled with for life because of those two girls who I love more than anything.) But, it is helpful knowledge as it is helping me detach at a very fast pace.

Hi May, of course they slept together and of course he lied to you about it or was vague with the details. This is what they know and who they are during affairs. My WW started reading the Glass book in early March right after I gave her the D settlement documents to review. A week later is when she came to me in tears asking for another month. At the time she was only a third of the way through the book and asked me when it was going to tell her what to do. She said she wished someone (other than me) would just tell her whether to R or D. I don’t believe she has read any more of the book since.

My WW was much like her H as she would show signs of considering R all the while the A was continuing. Many WAS won’t change or do anything different until they’re forced to. My WW was one of biggest cake eaters out there. She wanted the cozy, stable, and secure family life and the passion filled fantasy AP. Sound familiar?

May, you need to decide if your emotional well being can tolerate being in an open MR any longer. Your H’s A has been going on a long time. He’s still ambivalent and what’s worse is that he’s still in contact with his AP. Now, at least he’s being transparent with you and sharing his ambivalence. However, that doesn’t mean it’s okay for you to accept. I finally reached a point where I realized that I can do better. I was also sick of my kids being lied to about what was really going on. When I discovered the latest betrayal, I decided that moving forward with D was better than continuing to be part of a triangular relationship. My kids would be fine, would understand eventually, and would be better off with me removing myself from that misery. That was a tough decision that took me over a year to reach as you know how hard I fought to stand for my kids as it aligned with my values and the parental experience I wanted them to have growing up.

So, one thing that I think really hit her was when I told her at the beginning of this month that we need to move forward with the D as I am longer going to tolerate it and live this way. I also told her that we needed to tell the kids and that she would be the one to tell them that she was having an affair. I think this hit her right between the eyes with the reality of how devastating it would be for the kids to hear what she had chosen. Let me ask, do your daughters know about your H’s escapades? How do you think they would handle hearing that and how would it affect your H? Does he value their opinion of him?

May, as you know absolute NC is so vitally important. You need to find a catalyst for your H to get there or you may be in limbo for years. I think you were starting to reap some of the rewards of NC in the past few months. Although, once NC was broken, much of the progress was wiped away.

I tried to give my WW the choice time and time again. She refused to choose me. I finally decided to choose me. I don’t know if this latest round of NC will stick. What I do know is that without NC, I want nothing to do with my W. So, May, choose yourself and then you can see who your H really chooses. Wishing you the best!

[wayfarer]

Hey lady, just catching up on all the Mr. May drama. Dear lord, you have strength. I'd have been on the local news by now.

There's just a few things I want to say, post-nup thing sounds great to me. My legal S plan was always so I wouldn't be the one pulling the actual D trigger but be protected and provide my good insurance for D16. With LS in my state tax wise it's treated like a divorce, but you can file a reconciliation at any time and a unilateral divorce 12 months post decree date. My thought was always well I'll do this to protect me and show him I'm serious and if he really wants that D he can go do it himself. I didn't want it I'm not doing the leg work.

Next, as far as the bed goes if it isn't affecting your emotional well being I'm all for you being petty af for as long as possible and seeing if he'll wander to another room on his own with out your permission.

The friend thing is just p*ssing me off at this point. Do you y'all live like inside Disney Land by chance. Because the amount of imagination required for this little story line of his is on another level. I'm not asking that you reason with him but just in case you wanna throw some of these out there. Exes who are friends are friends long after the break up. No one wakes up one day and rolls over simultaneously with their partner and says "divorce and then friends?" and then they do it. Like this is absolute insanity. My baby daddy as I like to call him are cordial only because I choose to be. He's never not a hot a** mess. I actively choose to be kind to that loser for the sake of our daughter. That is the only reason we maintain the allusion of friendship. This lil friendship idea of his is entirely possible, but........Years and years and many glasses of wine and therapy sessions (professional and drunk friend style) down the road. He needs to get over it. But he's been pretty clear he can't get over anything every so....

I'm proud of you. You're dealing with this dumpster fire of a situation with a ton of grace and a whole lotta b@lls.

xoxo

[Traveler]

Hi May,

Wow--so even the R was built on a lie, that you'd have been okay with how he handled his breakup. Your situation sounds like you're walking through Dante's Inferno level by level, but you seem on your way out.

[AlisonUK]

Oh and... it is crazy-making that now he is deciding to read these marriage and affair books at this late date. he read the first section of Shirley Glass and so since she says 100% transparency is critical, decided to tell me what happened when he broke it off in February. Yep, they did sleep together, that is why he never wanted to tell me the details. (When I asked why he told me that nothing had happened that I'd be upset about, or only a 4-5 on a scale of 1-10, he said he'd slept with her before so it wasn't like this was all that different. Yes. this is the man I have spent 17 years of my life with, had two children with, and am now entangled with for life because of those two girls who I love more than anything.) But, it is helpful knowledge as it is helping me detach at a very fast pace.

May, you are doing brilliantly here and your anger is your friend. I don't know what the end of the story looks like for you, and what the best course of action is right now for you and your children. But I do know that anger helps you take action, that it stops you living in denial, and that boundaries are your friend both in separation and divorce and in building healthy marriages or co-parenting relationships.

A couple of tiny 2x4s. Of course he slept with her. I think you always knew that, didn't you?

And he didn't decide to read the Shirley Glass book. You said you saw him reading the Gottman book and you recommended the Glass book instead. That's smothering and controlling behaviour. It isn't off the charts - I'm not saying you're being abusive - but I am saying you are still in his business. Leave his reading and thinking alone. Leave his healing and decision making process alone. You have got to get out of his head and his heart and let him make his own decisions in his own time, no matter how awful the process is for you. You have no obligation to wait for him, to like his decisions or approve of his thinking process. You can end this whenever you want, but you can't manipulate it to work out the way you want it to. It's awful, I know.

My 2x4 is back in the box.

I do think you're doing so well, you know. He has engineered a situation that makes you into the bad guy no matter what you do (in his eyes) because that's preferable to him looking at himself and making some painful decisions and living the consequences of them. And the only possible thing you can do it step right back, let him lie in his bed and feel the consequences of it for as long as it takes. You're not going to talk him out of blaming you for his his pain and confusion, but it also does not mean you are to blame. You aren't. I love the plans you're making for your business and your future. These are good things, with or without him. Are there other things like that you can fill your time and headspace with?

[scout12]

He's scared to MO because he is scared about hurting the kids, hurting me, losing the house, losing me as a friend, losing these month-long family vacations he had planned with the kids, scared of the financial issues, scared of the social blowback, scared of being the a$$hole, scared the R with AP won't work out after all and he'll end up sad and alone. The last one I think scares him the most, even more than hurting the children.

What if the only thing he’s scared about is being exposed for what he is: a man who betrayed, destroyed, and abandoned his family? The betrayal and destruction and abandonment has already happened, May. He weighed the risks three years ago when he started the affair and judged that losing it all was an acceptable risk. That was the moment to be scared, not now that he’s been caught and consequences are closing in. What if everything that’s happening now is damage control on his end? What if he’s only hanging around because he’s desperately trying to figure out how he can come out of this smelling like roses?

I would never, ever suggest to involve your kids more than they need to be involved. But have you thought about what the best course of action is to inform them of what’s going on, if anything, and when? If H moves to the basement, then what? What degree of honesty is appropriate? You have heaps of options but if you block out the noise about how H feels and how you feel, what do you believe they deserve to know? If their world is going to be rocked regardless, can there be a silver lining with a teachable moment about love and fidelity and honesty?

I actually think Curtis has some kind of point here:

I also told her that we needed to tell the kids and that she would be the one to tell them that she was having an affair. I think this hit her right between the eyes with the reality of how devastating it would be for the kids to hear what she had chosen. Let me ask, do your daughters know about your H’s escapades? How do you think they would handle hearing that and how would it affect your H? Does he value their opinion of him?

This doesn’t have to be a shared decision. If you think your kids deserve to know the truth, you can tell them. If they are old enough to handle an explanation, even though it will be hard for you and your H will throw a fit, is it their right to know? Do they deserve to have the information required to make some sense out of an incomprehensible situation? Especially considering you mentioned they were so far unaware of any marital problems. What’s the alternative lesson they might learn in the absence of a concrete explanation? I liked CL’s response to this dilemma:

I think it is important that children realize that there are deal breakers in life, monumental mistakes that lead to consequences like divorce. And that it is okay to have deal breakers and enforce boundaries, even though it is very painful. These are essential life lessons, and if you can do your best to navigate this with grace, you are doing your kids a real service.

I believe that knowledge about what happened (not all the gory details, but the basic why) is better than letting them live with the nebulous sense that “people fall out of love.” Like it’s a scary cloud that randomly descends upon your life and takes away your love. No, people DO things that allow themselves to fall out of love with each other (they cheat). And we don’t get to control other people (I cannot not make him cheat) — we only control our reactions (I can divorce).

I don’t think you need to ask or force or threaten your spouse to say anything. I would never advocate telling the kids anything with the goal of affecting H’s behaviour (as Curtis seemed to be suggesting?) either. They either need to know or they don’t, and that’s a decision for you to make on your own. Obviously once it’s out there, you can’t take it back.

Just some questions to sit with while you are pondering your next step. You’ve got this!

[FlySolo]

Hi May

I hear NC being banded a lot in your thread and I just wanted to say it is d@mn hard emotionally and physically to maintain a NC position when you have to interact with someone, much more so when you are in the same physical space. It's doable when they live elsewhere. It's doable when you don't have children. But it isn't so easy when you are in the same space.

May, the beauty of you is that you are so full of compassion and empathy. You care. Don't let his whims turn you into an empty vessel spouting yes and no answers with a soul-less voice. I don't mean you should return to being his sounding board. His best friend is gone. He needs to feel that. Actions not words.

Him: "May - I'm feeling confused"
You: "I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope you can work through whatever it is that is happening".

Him: "You're not the same person"
You": "I am sorry I come through that way. It is not my intention".

Him: "You're a blah blah blah"
You" "I will not listen to this"

Then leave it at that.

In the meantime, turn that compassion and empathy inwards. You have a huge heart. Do not let him turn it into stone. It is time to start learning some self-love.

If he talks about moving out/moving to another room, just simply let it be. He wants a reaction (begging/pleading/negotiating/long drawn out conversations). Don't give him one. If he is reading self-help books, then let him. It has nothing to do with you.

You do you. Warm, compassionate, intelligent, beautiful you.

[Pommy99]

May I’m so sorry you are going through this painful experience. Your H has reached a new low in lies and deceit. Of course he knew that sleeping with her in Feb was a 10 for you. You had the STD screening and then he slept with her again without telling you? That’s such a disrespectful thing to do?

Your H is acting in a very cowardly manner. He’s pushing you to breaking point, he’s relying on you to crack so that you make the decisions for him. There is no hiding this from the children unfortunately. Without telling them a thing they will now pick up on the animosity or lack of communication and affection between you, or the fact he’s moved to the basement, and it will be destabilising for them. He needs to understand this. No he can’t be forced to leave the FAMILY and MARITAL home, but if he stays, at what cost to his children?

And what’s with all this BS from AP, thinking about getting back with her ex (what- is that from 2+ years ago)? How is it these WAH don’t see the manipulation being dealt out from the AP, but when it comes from the LBS it’s controlling? Ugh why is it so hard for H to see through these tactics from AP - I slept with someone else, I’m moving on , I’m getting back with my ex and we’re going to quarantine (aka F) for 2 weeks . I would be running a mile if someone tried to manipulate me like that!

Keep strong May, you deserve so much more than this half-wit of a H. {{Hugs}}

[SteveLW]

May, it is with mixed emotions that I write this post. First, I am still so sorry for what you are going through. I really wish I could have a magic wand and make all WASs/WSs wake up to the pain and anguish they are causing, and actually care more about that than their own selfish wants. But on the other hand I love that YOU have had an awakening and that you realize that this flawed human-being is not the man you married, and that he has morphed into a lying cheater than can't think past his own desires.

One of the reasons I try to get LBWs in particular in situations like yours to understand that they are now dealing with a lying cheater is because denial really paralyzes them. There is a tendency to dwell on how wonderful the cheater is/was and to gloss over the fact that he has been acting like a complete putz for quite some time. So I am happy to see you at least realizing that this guy is not worthy of your time and attention.

However, I hesitate to celebrate because I am sure your roller-coaster of emotions will swing back from anger to fear once again. And that you are more reacting to your recent R than really ready to move on with your life. This is why we tell LBHs to not make decisions rashly based on emotions. Let yourself have some time to not only process, but also to really understand how you feel. Most of us as LBSs go into R talks hoping to hear what we want. And when we don't we spin or get angry or get sad and hurt, or get fearful. So what I can tell you is to continue working on your detachment. If after an R talk like this you still get angry, then you aren't there yet. You need to avoid the tendency to overreact to his words and actions, even if that overreaction moves you in the right direction.

Many LBSs have lashed out and demanded the WAS/WS move out after an ill advised R talk, only to regret that their S moved out afterward. This is why we always say to take time before making a big decision. You are angry., and you should be, but make choice and decisions out of a good place rather than reacting to the feeling you are feeling at the moment.

Also, be careful in dealing with this creature. There is rarely a more cowardly being than a cheating husband that refuses to let go of his W for his AP, or his AP for his W. He is looking to you to make that decision because he wants to be the victim. "I didn't move out, she kicked me out." Etc. I say be careful not because of him, but because your goal is to move onward and upward without regrets. He IS going to try to be the victim in all of this. You have to be at a place where you do not care what he or anyone else thinks because you know the truth. So many LBSs struggle with what the kids will think, what friends will think, what church will think, what family will think. You need to get to a place where you realize you can't control any of that, and that you knowing the truth is good enough.

So follow the course of action you ended your post with, but take time to really consider what you want. If you ask him to leave please do it out of a place of really being ready to move on with your life....not as a way, even if only really deep down, of trying to give him one last wake up call.