Caught in limbo

[SteveLW]

Firstly I need to stop expecting so much from my wife during these early days, I need to stop looking for validation from her and stop the needy behaviours, I need to go with the flow more and find a right balance between showing her love and getting on with my own things.

Expectations are bad, no doubt. However, what we have tried to get you to see is that her leaving for another man and then wanting to come back.....you rightfully SHOULD have expectations of her. Those expectations should have been clearly established. Letting you read and confirm the sending of the cease and desist message to OM. IC for her. IC for you. MC for you both, eventually. Full transparency. No secret phones, accounts, etc.

Stop acting like the problem here. She is in "poor me" victim mode. You aren't the one that left the marriage, and went and shacked up with someone else, she is. THis is the point sandi and I have been making to you. She should have had to earn her way back into the marriage. You greased the skids, let her slide back in, she doesn't value coming back as a result, and now you are struggling.

However.......

Last night as the phone thing had been bugging me so much I asked my wife straight out if there had been any contact been her and the OM and she said no and handed me her phone to have a look. I told her I was concerned that she had pulled back a little and that was the reason I was asking and I said to her that it would take time for me to fully trust again.

Where in any of the advice you received did you get the advice to confront her on the phone and speak to her about your concern she pulled back? sandi and I have both suggested you come to the board first before taking steps like this. We could have talked you down off the ledge. Told you to let it lie. To not make things worse. WHen your WAW/WW is "pulling back", the only way to make it worse is to pressure and pursue them. You spend time in this post talking about "finding the right balance", however this kind of move is not finding the right balance.

Have you read sandi's rules? Have you read DR? Or are you flailing around in the dark just going on instinct and feeling? Being reactive and too impulsive will not help your situation. At all.

I think Sandi2 has hit the nail on the head about how my wife is feeling right now and she is working through her conflicting feelings and the doubts she has about why she isn't feeling the way she wants to feel about me. She said that initially when she came back her feelings where really intense but have since calmed down a little and she has said her feelings right now are all over the place. She has been honest and said that she doesn't want to be with OM and wants to be with me but she did have feelings for OM and now that's over she is going through the motions of that ending. She has said that she does love me she knows that and the time she came back before she just was not ready as she still had a lot of anger towards me and the OM was still convincing her to be with him as they where still working together.

"She has been honest"

Has she? Really? Or did she panic when life with OM wasn't rainbows and unicorns, and then came waltzing back into the MR. And without doing the work necessary now has slipped back into the old comfort zone that led to OM to begin with! This is what I am trying to get you to see WMWB. Going back to "business as usual" will be setting you up for another BD!

Believe nothing she says and only half of what she does. WWs do not flip a switch from waywardness to not being wayward anymore. This is what sandi was trying to get you to see. If it seemed as easy as flipping a switch then it was not real and lasting.

I assured her that it was normal how she was feeling right now and yes we both have our doubts and insecurities but we need to try and stop putting so much pressure on ourselves. She said she just doesn't feel there yet but is optimistic we can get through this together and she believes she will get there and she just needs time and that she is committed to the process. My wife did say it hadn't helped that i've smothered her and she just wants some normality between us (this is where I need to find the right balance) and for me to give her a little space.

Stop assuring her. Stop asking her about your actions. what they should be or if they are too much. Stop making excuses for her. What should WMWB be doing?

1) Stop spending so much time with her. I think this is the basis of your problem. When you first posted you were told to go GAL. That should not have been temporary. That should have been a permanent new state. I started doing things in my sitch and still do them to this day! Your first post back you said right away you were spending a lot of time with her, and I knew that was a huge red flag. That is why I said stop spending so much time with her. Sitting there watching her on her phone every night is killing you. Get out and be busy!!

2) How are your 180s coming? What have you done to improve yourself? How are those going? What other opportunities to improve do you have? Surely you didn't just sit and wait for your W to come back? Surely you were trying to become the best WMWB could be? Because I can tell you that walking around on eggshells, worrying about her all the time, starting weak discussions about phone usage and pulling back isn't it. You need really start looking at self-improvements and stop being spineless when it comes to her.

3) You are already wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too attached again. Did you work on detachment at all during your situation? Or again, did you just sit and wait hoping she'd come back? You need to get to a good place individually, where you can be happy and flourish if she stays, if she leaves again, etc. Remember WMWB, we live in an imperfect world. There is always the chance a spouse decides to leave, but there is also accidents and disease, and malfeasance, that could take our spouse away from us at anytime!. If you are overly attached to another person it can make moving on in the event of the unspeakable nearly impossible. Look up "self-differentiation in marriage" for good information on what detachment and healthy differentiation looks like. Until you get your attachment under control you will continue to impulsively smother her. WASs can feel the slightest pressure and crack under it.

Please at least deeply consider the advice you get here. You seem to be extremely impulsive which you really need to get under control. But you've been given advice about IC for you both, and MC together for you both, and other things and seemed to have glossed over that. Trust me, having been through it twice, looking back with regrets (I should have done IC, insisted she did IC, that we did MC, etc) is not something that is fun. Make the decision that you will leave no stone unturned so you can look back, no matter what happens, without regrets. It would be terrible for her to leave again in 6 months and for you to look back and say "I should have done IC, insisted that she did too, and than required MC as well."

Finally, you really seem to be a bit lowly in all of this. Lowly doesn't command respect. For women, attraction is firmly attached to respect. Women are not attracted to men they do not respect. Go back and read your posts since you came back.......do you think you've been commanding respect? Or has she been leading in all of this, and kind of walking over you? Something to think about. Use knowledge as your power. Knowing that for women attraction follows respect works in your favor. (Make sure you are COMMANDING RESPECT rather than demanding respect. That means actions, not words.)

[SteveLW]

One last thing on the changing of jobs. You seem to be hanging your hat on her changing jobs as a sign that she was serious about coming back.

Or was it more that she was just upset with OM and didn't want to have to see him daily? In other words, did she change jobs to get away from OM for the good of the marriage? Or was it the good of herself?

My guess? She would have changed jobs to get away from OM even if you had told her to kick rocks.

[sandi2]

One of the most common mistakes in reconciliation I've observed, is when the couple tries to resume without a plan. Call it a blueprint, requirements, or a guide to follow..........you need direction. I don't know the details or what was said between the two of you when she decided to go home. Just returning back to the marital home without some critical agreements in place, is almost a guarantee the MR will not be fulfilling for the couple. If either spouse thinks their reconciliation/piecing will resemble a honeymoon, then they are at risk........IMO. There are a few exceptions where the couple have great sex for a while, but eventually, they learn there is a lot more to all of this reconciling/piecing. This is much more than "making up", and feelings for both spouses are going to be fragile.

For me, learning how affairs (even emotional affairs) work in the brain, was probably the key ingredient. It's like a feel good chemical, that's much like being "in love". I wasn't actually in love with the OM, but the A made me feel alive and excited. I wanted to be in love, b/c it was all a fantasy. When I read the science behind it, and how it works like a drug, that helped me understand and fight the cravings to contact the OM. It took me months to get through it, but understanding why I was experiencing all those feelings helped me. God, prayer, and the board gave me encouragement and strength.

Frankly, I had no desire to stay with my H. The board would ask me if I would commit to the M. The way I felt at the time, it sounded like a death sentence. You see, I had not felt remorse at that point, and I was very resentful, so it was a lot for me to say I was committed to my M. Finally, I decided I would do the right thing. That's how I was raised........to do the right thing. It's sounds crazy, considering I had become wayward, but in my soul I knew what I should do. Well, guess what? That decision did absolutely nothing for my feelings! You have to learn that emotions were never designed to make decisions. Making the decision is the first step. I made the decision based on my spiritual/moral beliefs, and eventually the right feelings caught up. The problem for your W at the moment, is her feelings want to be in control. Her feelings gauged everything. Affairs thrive on feelings, and she is craving the excitement it gave her. Her core values need to direct her actions.

Willingness is a must in a WW recovery. WW's are full of stubborn pride, until they actually have that come to Jesus moment. I decided I would behave respectfully toward my H, in spite of the fact I didn't feel respect right then. Disrespect and resentment are the seeds that start the whole wayward movement. Eventually, I felt respect for him, but I had to go through that process I talked about previously.

When I speak of agreements, I am referring to important things you set up as a requirement to reconciling the MR. As the wayward spouse, your W really shouldn't be laying down any ground rules or conditions, b/c you are the betrayed and it should be up to you (as the leader) how the two of you will proceed. For instance, attending therapy should be a condition she should agree to. Transparency should be another condition. Since it's been a couple of months, it might not go over very well with her, IDK. But listen, when you read this post, don't go running to her to talk about all of this. You need to TALK TO US, not her. Not until you know what you are doing. There's no way we can get everything in a couple of posts, so that's why we tell you not to do anything before running it by the board first.

Here are a few things the WW needs to experience/process in order to fully recover. This is just to give you some idea.
(These are in no special order).

1.) Consequences! And taking a hit with hard, maybe a painful loss of some kind.
2). Realizing the connection between her decisions with the consequences/loss.
3). Accepting responsibility for her decisions...and for every loss, and every hurt she caused those she loves and who loves her.
4). Accepting and dealing with the consequences, without blaming anyone but herself.
5). Making a conscious choice to end her wayward direction and turn around.
6). Seeking guidance and/or spiritual counsel to guide her in how to cleanse her heart of the wrong attitudes, self-centeredness, resentment, rebellion.......whatever she carries that is unhealthy.
7). To be remorseful. If necessary, even seek spiritual help, pray, whatever......to feel remorse for the destruction her decisions and feelings has caused her H. She has to feel true remorse in order to emotionally reconcile and heal properly.
8). To completely forgive her H for everything in the past. To release the blame, anger, and hurt she held throughout their M.
9). To be wiling to do whatever it takes for the MR to heal.
10). To agree and cooperate with the H's choice of transparency plan (accountability), sending a NC letter, having any medical tests, ending any friendships out of his request, (and of course, any contact with OM), place of employment, giving him requested information, attending MC, or anything else the H may request in order to ensure the success of their reconciliation, and the safety of the MR.
11). Accept/agree, without resentment, that she is in no position to give her H any "conditions" to her going back into the MR. And, to accept without resentment, that the greatest level of work in piecing the M back together, must come from her.
12). To accept that it will take time for her healthy emotions to be restored. To realize and accept she cannot measure the success of their progress by her feelings.
13). To be informed, and accept, that she must go through withdrawals from her AP, and could experience depression. She needs to understand this is normal, and not a sign that she will have never have feelings for H.
13). And the hardest one of all.........learn to forgive herself.

Again, don't discuss any of this with her right now. Please ask questions about any of this you don't understand.

[WMWB]

Hello,

Thanks all so far for responding, I've pulled back a bit and I am trying to find the right balance between showing love and patience and having some time for myself. I have continued to do the things I was doing when my wife left such as walking more and reading more again, its hard to do anything else to be honest has Covid restrictions are in place currently.

So we've not had sex in a couple of weeks and when I initiated some contact my wife had said her libido was just so low right now so i've backed off on that front too. We do have a cuddle on the sofa and a we do still kiss but usually all of these things are initiated by me but quite honestly I feel like I should just stop because after I initiate it bothers me afterwards that its me initiating the affection all the time. My wife did say shes not 100% there right now which I am not quite sure I understand. I suspect the initial anger she had for the OM has wore off and as you've said Sandi she is now being hit with the withdrawals

Just feeling pretty down right now after that intense period we had where she seemed to be doing all the right things like apologising, recognising what she had done, initiating affection and saying ILY etc.

[SteveLW]

The general rule on sex and affection is that, unless she is in a PA, you can reciprocate IF she initiates, but you shouldn't be initiating yourself. You initiating is pressure and pursuit and you should be avoiding all pressure and pursuit right now. IF she is in a PA, or if you even suspect one, then all affection and sex should be turned down. Protect your own health.

[Ginger1]

She literally went from OM’s arms to yours. while she might have some regrets, her feelings for you or OM aren’t turned on and off by light switches .

Would you even want that? Because if she can’t turn her feelings back in so quickly, I’m sure she can turn them off quickly as well. And that’s not a good thing.

Unfortunately with you taking her from OM’s bed into yours, she is skipping a necessary healing and self work period. You’ll have to be patient while it unfolds in front of you

[WMWB]

The general rule on sex and affection is that, unless she is in a PA, you can reciprocate IF she initiates, but you shouldn't be initiating yourself. You initiating is pressure and pursuit and you should be avoiding all pressure and pursuit right now. IF she is in a PA, or if you even suspect one, then all affection and sex should be turned down. Protect your own health.

Ok thanks.

She literally went from OM’s arms to yours. while she might have some regrets, her feelings for you or OM aren’t turned on and off by light switches .

Would you even want that? Because if she can’t turn her feelings back in so quickly, I’m sure she can turn them off quickly as well. And that’s not a good thing.

Unfortunately with you taking her from OM’s bed into yours, she is skipping a necessary healing and self work period. You’ll have to be patient while it unfolds in front of you

I understand that this is going to take time and that she needs time and is grieving the relationship with the OM. It hard that I still have all of this love inside that I can't express right now (certainly not in the way I want to) as I don't want to smother her especially since she has told me that's what its doing.

[ovrrnbw]

WMWB,

I was in your shoes last year and went through a lot of false starts. The biggest thing you're going to have to do is detach. You are so emotionally invested in her. You watch her every move and analyze and drive yourself nuts. It's crazy, but it is kinda normal so don't get real worried about that. You need to be doing your own thing and focusing on yourself. She isn't all the way in this yet.

I wouldn't be her shoulder to cry on about the OM. I wouldn't listen to it at all personally. If you don't trust her, pull up the phone records online and you can see who she texted if it isn't Whatsapp or Snapchat or something. As for trusting her, this will take time. Don't get caught up in every little thing. Time will tell, so give it time. And start using the meantime more productively.

I also wouldn't worry about sex right now. You want sex? Go to the gym 5 days a week, accomplish chores around the house, crush it at work, save money, read and learn things, stand up tall and smile - and then you will be the most self confident guy in the world and you'll have women's attention.

So, what are YOU doing?

[WMWB]

Hello,

After my wife left I had thought about the things I had let slide for me (not just in the marriage) and I decided to get fit again and started walking and swimming and I am still doing both on a regular basis, making a conscious effort to get more sleep and to eat healthier which again I continue to do. I wasn't much of a reader but started to read some non-fiction books which I am enjoying. I've paid a lot of the debt we had (around 95%) and have started saving and I have a 5 year plan for that.

I am not a shoulder to cry on when it comes to the OM and she knows that, we do not talk about him and what her current feelings for him are but she has mentioned that her feelings are mixed up and she is trying to work through them. At this point I honestly don't know if she is in contact with the OM she does leave her phone down now and again and I have the pin but it would likely be pointless to check it as the messages would probably be deleted anyway and its imessages so doesn't show up on phone bill.

Its true I am hyper vigilant right now and I do watch what she does and I need to learn to get that under control and not to focus so much on the small things. I guess with all of the crap she was saying the months she was away and now the backsliding its left me feeling as if she is really committed but at the same time she says if she wasn't she'd just move out again.

[SteveLW]

Hello,

After my wife left I had thought about the things I had let slide for me (not just in the marriage) and I decided to get fit again and started walking and swimming and I am still doing both on a regular basis, making a conscious effort to get more sleep and to eat healthier which again I continue to do. I wasn't much of a reader but started to read some non-fiction books which I am enjoying. I've paid a lot of the debt we had (around 95%) and have started saving and I have a 5 year plan for that.

I am not a shoulder to cry on when it comes to the OM and she knows that, we do not talk about him and what her current feelings for him are but she has mentioned that her feelings are mixed up and she is trying to work through them. At this point I honestly don't know if she is in contact with the OM she does leave her phone down now and again and I have the pin but it would likely be pointless to check it as the messages would probably be deleted anyway and its imessages so doesn't show up on phone bill.

Its true I am hyper vigilant right now and I do watch what she does and I need to learn to get that under control and not to focus so much on the small things. I guess with all of the crap she was saying the months she was away and now the backsliding its left me feeling as if she is really committed but at the same time she says if she wasn't she'd just move out again.

You've heard the saying: A watched pot never boils? Well a watched WAS never returns. Watching them makes them realize that they could have you back at anytime, and that security and satisfaction is all the WAS is looking for right now. You are Plan B. And as long as Plan B, their safety net, is in place then they feel they can just continue doing what they are doing and always come back later. This is the huge mistake so many LBSs make. Making it clear that through their lying, cheating, emotionally abusing, etc, that they can always just waltz back to the LBS anytime they decide to makes them MORE of a walkaway then kicking them to the curb. People want what they can't have, as long as they can have you, they won't want you.