No changes on WAW - Pack_19 Part II

[Pack_19]

Previous Thread - Cross Country Separation Part I

hi all,

I have spent the entire day feeling miserable after the interaction with W yesterday and how I stormed out after she told me I was punishing her by not being her friend. This afternoon I got a notification from my calendar, I had set a 6 months deadline to move on if I saw no change on her behaviour.

Well here we are, there has been no change, I still want to R, but I need to move on now. I guess considering myself divorced will help from this point. Do you have any recommendations for moving pass this kind of personal deadlines in a healthy way?

On a different topic, how can I deal with the sex drought? It has been many many months and I am 29 so my drive is quite strong. One of my goals as better man is to stop any kind of porn and my friends keep encouraging me to use tinder or similar (only one of them is married and the rest have the maturity of a teenager). do you guys have any recommendations here?

I have been out before and I feel interest from other women but I do not want to complicate or mess any chances at R yet I am a man and have my needs. Thanks a lot for reading and for your support!

love, Packs

[Traveler]

Hi Paco,

Sorry you're here. I'll admit I've only read bits of your situation.

I can proudly say I am all NC now.. Yesterday I dropped the kids with her and it was the first time when after enjoying some time with them together I was the first one to want to go,

Well, not exactly. Sounds like contact. My GF is NC with he ex-H. She doesn't see him during the exchange of kids. For years I limited contact with my ex-W to matters essential to the kids (quiet handoffs).

I read all this DB stories were Hs say the first step is to be friends again,

Interesting. In most situations I think we recommend the opposite--either because there's been a betrayal (poor friend material) or because it would be too hard or to allow for "missing" each other. With my partner I went from together to NC to romantically together again. I'm not sure "friends" would've worked.

"[T]he only one to shift the blame 100% on the other here was [you]."

I doubt blaming her 100% for being the only one to shift blame 100% (in front of the kids) will rate as either one of your best (or worst) moments in the marriage. You're human. Do better next time.

On a different topic, how can I deal with the sex drought? It has been many many months and I am 29 so my drive is quite strong. One of my goals as better man is to stop any kind of porn and my friends keep encouraging me to use tinder.. I do not want to complicate or mess any chances at R

Dating complicates reconciliation. Been there, done that, in case reconciliation is a goal. I've controversially noted here before If you're ready to move on, at least one study shows rebounds help, and I see no ethical issues if you're honest with everyone. I am curious why you believe self-satisfaction makes you a worse man than sleeping with random people on Tinder. If the issue is you consider porn unethical, consider whether erotic literature or some limited cross-section of porn is satisfying and fits your ethics.

[sandi2]

I can proudly say I am all NC now, I go to bed and have things to keep me busy or entertained, I wake up in the morning with new goals, plans and to-do lists and I will never ever beg her again for a simple coffee or dinner.

So..........all this NC came about since yesterday? Your resolve is usually the strongest when you are angry.

Yesterday I dropped the kids with her and it was the first time when after enjoying some time with them together I was the first one to want to go, I genuinely wanted to leave so I opened the door to her building and as I was saying goodbye she started crying and told me she could not bear anymore my accusations. She told me she was not happy either but she could not be with me, she had suffered for a long time and now she could not start clean.

As difficult as it may be at first, I think you really need to stop spending time together with the kids. Exchange them, but don't spend time together "with" them. Your W holds strong resentment, and this works against you and the children.

I told her I knew she had been banging her head against a wall and that I was sorry and would give her all time and space she needs. To that her reply was that I am stubborn, that I must accept we are separated and it is probable we are never together again. I got strength from inside and told her I had accepted it and she told me she does not understand why we cannot speak like friends and that it feels like I am punishing her. I told her I could happily talk about our children and the only one to shift the blame 100% on the other here was her and walked away (I am sorry but I just felt like I also have to set boundaries for me and her tears did not seem genuine, you cannot just cry and then say do not dare coming close to me in an angry tone)

By not spending time with her while enjoying the kids, it gives her much more space. Giving her space, in this case, means removing your attention, your presence, your time, conversation, etc. I think she's going to need a long stretch of time without seeing you or hearing your voice, before some of her anger subsides. I don't think she wants you to "fix" anything with her. Unfortunately, I've experienced some people like her, who had rather remain angry than find resolution. This is when there is nothing you can do to change her feelings, b/c she won't allow it. Therefore, the problem is no longer about you. She chooses to remain bitter and cold. The problem is within her heart, and she will have to find peace with it. Am I making sense?

Unless you physically behave in a pursuing manner, or make comments that reflect your feelings for her, or desiring to reconcile, then why does she immediately take issue against you? I think her wanting to be friends is a farce. When you are with her a short period, she quickly becomes very angry and hateful for no obvious reason......other than she holds unforgiveness in her heart. Unforgiveness works like a poison. You cannot be friends with a person of this disposition. She will have to work it out, herself, b/c she refuses to allow you to make amends. When she doesn't have you as a target to unleash her rage, maybe she will realize she is hurting herself by carrying this resentment. You can't heal her.

Also I dont know what to think about her tears, she has used them in the past to get her way and they come out of nowhere. A minute ago she is ignoring me and when I am going to leave she bursts into tears, what is she playing at?

I can't remember if I've asked this question previously. Was your W spoiled by her parents? When a little girl has a sense of entitlement, it often comes from parents who never tell her "no". Spoiled little girls are guilty of manipulating her parents to get whatever they want. However, she doesn't have to be spoiled, in order to use tears as a manipulation tool, for whatever reason. When they grow up, they can change.......but often times, they don't. It's not difficult for some women to shed tears at any given time. My guess is that used the tears to pull you back into her drama. She could have wanted to make you feel guilty (punish you) for hurting poor little her. It's too complicated for me to explain sufficiency. If you think the tears were fake, and I tend to agree, then don't beat yourself up.

I apologize if I have repeated anything from previous posts.



((hugs))

[Pack_19]

hi CWarrior, Sandi, thanks a lot for jumping in.

@ CWarrior, thanks for your post! I feel like I write such long ones only Sandi has the patience to answer me!
Yes I know is not the best NC but I have been stubbornly ignoring the good advice from Sandi for many months and for me being there and not thinking about asking W how she is is a little triumph.

I did have a weak moment there, I am getting back my confidence and self esteem and I hearing her say I was punishing her just reminds me of comments as "you cannot force me to be unhappy next to you for the rest of my life". I will do better next, validation and respect.

I dont have issues with porn, I just dont want to abuse it, when our R was dying I did use it as she would tell me things as we not being in a place where she would feel desire and it just reminds me of those days. I am all devoted to my career, children and myself but it is just hard. Good thing is now with summer lots of cold showers are coming!

@ Sandi, you always speak as clear as water. I will give her that kind of space, I will allow her to miss me and think differently and I wont even stop to play with the kids when I drop or pick them up. She also cried when she told me she had to be in Seville because she could not start over in Munich and despite I dont think she is spoiled, I do think she might have that ability to cry out of nowhere.

Quite a lot happened yesterday, let me tell you but I think I was not too bad.

She asked me to bring her bike when I pick up the children. I know a strong DBer would have told her, is here ready for pickup but I got it in the car and went pick up the kids. I have renewed my wardrobe, I had to because even things I bought last year are now too loose and I was very cheerful.

Her first comment was that I had a pump (implying I should have pumped her wheels up) to what I calmly replied it is inside a wardrobe upper shelf and I did not have the time to get it (no thanks nothing more). I picked up the kids, told them to kiss her goodbye, left immediately. While driving in the car she called me 3 times, I ignored the calls and got home where I had a new bike for my S6 as now we can go out with children 11 to 19pm. I finally called her and it went like this:

W: Hi, can you speak?
Me: Yes how can I help?
W: Why have you left so quickly? I almost couldnt say anything to you. Dont you want to know how your children are?
Me: Of course I want to, I will talk to S6 as we have done so far and catch up with them.
W: Oh so you are going to trust a boy who is 6?
Me: Look W, I dont like the way we have talked the last few occasions, I dont want our R to go that way.
W: But that is the ONE thing I want, to talk about the children. You dont understand.
Me: Well then call me some other day and when they are not here we meet and chat.
W: (babbles something in anger and hangs up)
Me: (wow I handled that so so)

How did I go there? I think I still can improve because I dont have the emotional strength to stop to thing what I want to say when she attacks me, I will get there.
Am I being to harsh by not even wanting to stop with her anymore? I am truly confuse with the friend thing. Some success stories here tell you "it was my claim for unconditional friendship that arose the first feelings back in my W", but to me it just does not come natural, I am still a pension and a visiting father in my own eyes, and she has done nothing to show me she regrets this situation (the other day she went as far as saying "I realised the only thing that did not fit in my life was you". She knows I want to change, improve and fight for our marriage, I have told her a million times and she does not care, her safety and happiness are no longer my problem and I need my own space and boundaries to heal.

I keep talking about exercise but now that I can go out to run it is even better. I renewed my wardrobe, slim pants, new shirts, new t-shirts, shoes... the whole pack and I have forced myself to put on an air of confidence and happiness despite the nights when I cannot sleep and memories destroy me.

I havent heard back from her, maybe she is to proud to ever admit she was wrong and our family is worth putting the effort. We never went to C, never lived appart before the separation, but it has been 6 months now living alone and I dont see a hint of a change in her, too bad because I spend less and less nights thinking about her side of the bed.

Thank you all for your support, please keep posting!

hugs, Packs

[sandi2]

Me: Look W, I dont like the way we have talked the last few occasions, I dont want our R to go that way.

You handled the conversation great. This ^^^^ statement was important, b/c it points to the reason for your hasty departure. Not that you were required to give her a reason, but I think you did very well. Next time, it won't be necessary to tell her.

Am I being to harsh by not even wanting to stop with her anymore? I am truly confuse with the friend thing.

No, I don't think you were harsh.

I think you need lay aside the thoughts of being her friend, or seeing it as a channel of restoring the relationship. How can you be a friend to someone who rejects you? Think about it. Have you ever pursued a person to be friends, when that person wanted nothing to do with you? You cannot be friends with someone who hates you and uses every opportunity to make digs and throw hurtful remarks in your face. You have to show self respect, and not follow her around when she's speaking badly, giving you the cold shoulder, etc. You tried being friendly, in times past, and she reacted even worse. Therefore, time & space is needed before she will be ready to conduct herself in a calm, respectable manner. If she heals from the bitterness she holds in her heart, then perhaps it will be possible to become friends, but I think it will take her a long time to let go of her anger.

I havent heard back from her, maybe she is to proud to ever admit she was wrong and our family is worth putting the effort. We never went to C, never lived appart before the separation, but it has been 6 months now living alone and I dont see a hint of a change in her, too bad because I spend less and less nights thinking about her side of the bed.

I don't think you'll see change in her for a couple of years, if she is not in therapy trying to heal. I realize 6 months feels forever to you, but by all accounts.....she is not processing her thoughts/feelings in a healthy way. She continues to verbally bash you, and it gets her nowhere. She may never get beyond this point with you, b/c she wants you to hurt and letting go of her anger would be like letting you escape pain free.

I keep talking about exercise but now that I can go out to run it is even better. I renewed my wardrobe, slim pants, new shirts, new t-shirts, shoes... the whole pack and I have forced myself to put on an air of confidence and happiness despite the nights when I cannot sleep and memories destroy me.

Great job!

[Pack_19]

hi all!
I need to ask for some help on the board today. Over the last 2 days with the children at home I have been extremely busy with work, exercise and the kids to the point that I almost do not pay attention to my phone. Everyday around 20pm W video calls to see the children but anytime she messages outside of that time I just take hours to see it and answer.

I got a pm today from W saying that I should try to look at the phone more often if possible. Before answering to her I wanted to check with the board, this is what I wanted to say.

"W, you know my position wrt our marriage are family, but while we are separated and independent I so not think you should tell me those things."

I am struggling to put this down to words but I want to convey the message that she chose to separate, even ask me repeatedly for a divorce and she simply cannot even comment on how often I look at the phone, she has lost that right. Am I right? how do I put this into words on a respectful and loving way? again, as time goes by and I gain confidence, I have realized I also need my boundaries.

Thanks a lot for your support and help! Here still GALing like a madman!

[HrtHsbnd]

I think you need lay aside the thoughts of being her friend, or seeing it as a channel of restoring the relationship. How can you be a friend to someone who rejects you? Think about it. Have you ever pursued a person to be friends, when that person wanted nothing to do with you? You cannot be friends with someone who hates you and uses every opportunity to make digs and throw hurtful remarks in your face. You have to show self respect, and not follow her around when she's speaking badly, giving you the cold shoulder, etc. You tried being friendly, in times past, and she reacted even worse. Therefore, time & space is needed before she will be ready to conduct herself in a calm, respectable manner. If she heals from the bitterness she holds in her heart, then perhaps it will be possible to become friends, but I think it will take her a long time to let go of her anger.

I don't think you'll see change in her for a couple of years, if she is not in therapy trying to heal. I realize 6 months feels forever to you, but by all accounts.....she is not processing her thoughts/feelings in a healthy way. She continues to verbally bash you, and it gets her nowhere. She may never get beyond this point with you, b/c she wants you to hurt and letting go of her anger would be like letting you escape pain free.

Sandi,

What do you mean by this? Can you explain it in more detail?

[HrtHsbnd]

I would ignore it and go on. You cannot please her with any response you give.

hi all!
I need to ask for some help on the board today. Over the last 2 days with the children at home I have been extremely busy with work, exercise and the kids to the point that I almost do not pay attention to my phone. Everyday around 20pm W video calls to see the children but anytime she messages outside of that time I just take hours to see it and answer.

I got a pm today from W saying that I should try to look at the phone more often if possible. Before answering to her I wanted to check with the board, this is what I wanted to say.

"W, you know my position wrt our marriage are family, but while we are separated and independent I so not think you should tell me those things."

I am struggling to put this down to words but I want to convey the message that she chose to separate, even ask me repeatedly for a divorce and she simply cannot even comment on how often I look at the phone, she has lost that right. Am I right? how do I put this into words on a respectful and loving way? again, as time goes by and I gain confidence, I have realized I also need my boundaries.

Thanks a lot for your support and help! Here still GALing like a madman!

[Pack_19]

hi HrtHsbnd! thanks for the comment, I was now going to bed and I am thinking the same, no matter what I say it will not bring me closer to the goal I have. I will come back tomorrow and answer to the other comments. Thanks a lot! I saved my old me another stupid pm to W.

[sandi2]

Originally Posted by sandi2


I think you need lay aside the thoughts of being her friend, or seeing it as a channel of restoring the relationship. How can you be a friend to someone who rejects you? Think about it. Have you ever pursued a person to be friends, when that person wanted nothing to do with you? You cannot be friends with someone who hates you and uses every opportunity to make digs and throw hurtful remarks in your face. You have to show self respect, and not follow her around when she's speaking badly, giving you the cold shoulder, etc. You tried being friendly, in times past, and she reacted even worse. Therefore, time & space is needed before she will be ready to conduct herself in a calm, respectable manner. If she heals from the bitterness she holds in her heart, then perhaps it will be possible to become friends, but I think it will take her a long time to let go of her anger.

I don't think you'll see change in her for a couple of years, if she is not in therapy trying to heal. I realize 6 months feels forever to you, but by all accounts.....she is not processing her thoughts/feelings in a healthy way. She continues to verbally bash you, and it gets her nowhere. She may never get beyond this point with you, b/c she wants you to hurt and letting go of her anger would be like letting you escape pain free.

Sandi,

What do you mean by this? Can you explain it in more detail?

IMHO, whenever there is a case where the other spouse is extremely angry and uses every opportunity to bash the LBS, there needs to be a period of cooling off. It may take months, years, or never, b/c the other spouse refuses to let go of their anger or seek help in healing. This cooling off period applies for the spouse who blows up over the least thing, and the LBS never knows what temperament is going to show up. The LBS is the one on the receiving end as the other spouse unleashes their rage. There seems to be nothing the LBS can do to change the other spouse's angry outbursts. To me, it seems very illogical for the LBS to believe they can be the other spouse's BFF under these conditions.......and I have to ask why would anyone want to be friends with someone who treats them so badly.

I've stated my opinion about this many times. I think couples mess up by thinking of their MR as if it were a friendship. When I accepted my H's proposal of M, I was not seeking a new friend. I already had many friends. However, I was not in love with any of my friends. My future H was in a unique category that only one person could fill. Now, to be fair, I think I understand what people mean by saying they are trying to be friends with the spouse who wants out of the M. But I have a big problem with the LBS trying to be the other spouse's friend, while accepting a trashcan full of bad treatment in return. It goes against human nature. Human beings don't want to be a real friend to someone they can kick around, b/c they have no respect for that person. See what I mean? They may let that person hang around from time to time, and they will use that person whenever they want them to do something.......but it is not a true friendship.

After there has been a cooling off period, the stormy waters have ceased......and the other spouse has ceased their attack, the LBS may be able to conduct themselves in a friend-ly manner whenever there is a legit reason to have contact. Depending on the circumstances of the sitch, a level of "friendship" may begin to develop. I think the problem many LBH's have, is his definition of being his W's friend is quite different than her definition......especially while her treatment toward him is so bad. As long as she lashes out in anger, verbally disrespects, tries to manipulate, etc.........I think he should resign himself to a civil approach, rather than trying to be her buddy. Does that make sense? The bottom line is respect. The LBS must demonstrate self-respect, in order for the other spouse to respect them.

So how does a LBS cope with the other spouse who won't interact civilly? The LBS must have effective boundaries in place, based on their core values. The LBS must stop being available 24/7, and drop the emotional rope they have tied to the other spouse. All contact with/from the other spouse, should be on a business level. Don't respond to texts/emails/calls from the other spouse. I use to say the exception is when it's about the kids, but I've learned that LBS's abuse that exception to death!! If it is a true emergency, a text indicating an emergency isn't that hard.

When children are involved, there needs to be a calendar or set schedule indicating when the children will be in the care of each spouse. I don't know if it's called child/parent visitation (that term doesn't sound right to me) or whatever the modern term is, but you know what I mean, right? There should also be a regular set time for the other spouse to contact the children when they are in the care of the LBS. The other spouse should not text the LBS wanting photos of the kids, asking the LBS if the kids are okay (as if the LBS is incapable of taking care of them). The LBS should not respond to any photos or funnies the other spouse sends. This may feel too rigged for some newcomers, but once the other spouse stops dumping garbage on the LBS and consistently acts civil, then the LBS can always lighten up a little........so to speak.

I want something understood here. This is not to be seen as a punishment or tit-for-tat. It's about the LBS detaching from a highly emotional person who continues to disrespect them. We often say that you can't nice them back. That's referring to a spouse who wants out of the MR without justified caused (abuse, imprisonment, no support, etc.). The other spouse has no selfish hidden agenda, no third party is in the picture, no behaving like GGW, etc. IMHO, the only way the LBS could work toward being a friend with the other spouse, is when the LBS is obviously the offender, instead of the offended party. Make sense? The majority of cases on the board, are about betrayed LBS.......who are being treated awful by the other spouse. When this is the case, I don't recommend trying to act like their BFF, b/c of the lack of respect factor. The LBS should set guidelines and boundaries.....so that s/he is not constantly ambushed by the other spouse. Give the other spouse time and space to cool off. The problem for most LBS is they see a few days as time & space, and unfortunately, it's nothing close to what is needed. So, don't lower your standards and self-respect in order to be a buddy of the other spouse, when they are treating you terribly.

I don't know if I explained myself much better in this post, but I hope I did.