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Hi Gerda, thank you for your reply. I will do my best to respond to your questions smile


Originally Posted by Gerda
What judge signed off on this? It sounds very messy and not at all satisfactory as a final divorce decree. The whole point of the divorce is to settle all these questions.



State of Hawaii. Filed as uncontested, without a jury. I had a lawyer, had him served, I had it revoked. Emotions got the best of me. Stupid? Perhaps. We filed together, using his lawyer. I'm glad I did see a lawyer, so I was familiar with the paperwork. Stupid? Perhaps.

Originally Posted by Gerda

I also second what DnJ said about following the agreement but with an addendum -- GET YOUR FINANCES SEPARATED FROM THIS MAN ASAP. Why would you want to talk to him about money or share anything with him? Fly, Canbird, Fly!!!!!


xo I have been soring above all of this with such grace. I do have my own bank account. The only thing we have that ties us is the house, and the rental income. I don't know if I can manage the house on my own. I've only been at my new job a month. If the house gets sold, so be it. The mortgage & loan get paid, whatever the realtor gets etc etc... we split the rest, but I get a certain $ amount more than him, because I contributed more going into the purchase. Dang write I had that added!


Originally Posted by Gerda

Without knowing any of the details -- it sounds like you most definitely would qualify for alimony on top of child support.

I would suggesting taking the papers to three lawyers, as if you are vetting them to see if you would hire them. It's a consultation to get their take and how they would approach this.

Alternatively, do a web search for women's justice centers near you. You need expert advice.

I am quite sharp on business matters and somewhat sharp on division of property so if you want to give more details, I could try to give you better advice.


Division of property is pretty much 50/50. We both came into the marriage with nothing, but I got $$ to get the house and furnish it. That's in the agreement, that I get those funds back with the sales of the house. He worked, supported us for years... I contributed by taking care of the house, the rental and our daughter for the past 4 years, while he was away for half the year. Year after year... NEVER doing that kind of relationship again.


Originally Posted by Gerda

My advice without knowing anything, is that you immediately form an LLC that will be your rent collection entity. Do it as a single member LLC with you as the only member. All rents go into that account and all building maintenance expenses are paid from it. Build a history for that LLC. Do it fast, now, Dec 1 start date, so you can move all your books from 2020 into your books for this LLC.


I'm not business savy, so bare with me smile The rental has always been under XH state business license. We are required to have this license in order to have a "legal rental". In the past we've claimed it on our joint taxes. I have a business license as well. Got it years ago for work purposes, (independent contractor of sorts) but never used it. It's the same license XH has.

Our x's sound similar in the sense that mine also doesn't understand how to pay the taxes on the rental, I've always been the one to handle the money, pay the bills. He also pays no attention to the rental account we have jointly. He's got another account, at a different bank, that technically is joint, but I separated myself from it in March, after we signed our papers. I have checks for this account, and he's had me write payments out for the mortgage. Again, this comes out of HIS account. Hope that's not to confusing.... it's business.


Originally Posted by Gerda

I am still embroiled in divorce and joint ownership. So what I do with my LLC is that the LLC pays 75% of all rents to me and H. It goes into my joint account with H (he never accesses this and has no ability to understand anything about money except his delusion that I am stealing it). 25% stays in the company account to pay repairs and other expenses plus sales tax, etc. The 75% going into joint account all goes to mortgage. Right now it's not covering even a big fraction of mortgage but I am in forbearance too. But I am paying the interest at minimum so my debt numbers don't go up on my credit score; I want to be able to buy him out as soon as I can refinance.

Then you will have a history for your LLC and you can apply to buy him out by having your LLC buy the property. The total the LLC will have to pay is just whatever you owe him. A good deal!

Your rental income -- it's half yours and half his, but it's not the entire rents, some of that as I said above is going through your company along with expenses. When you do your taxes, you claim half the income that does hit your account and he must claim the other half. Likewise you each can claim half the mortgage interest. And as soon as possible, you buy him out and this is all yours to claim, via your business. Remember, you are building equity in a joint property. You have to get credit for that elsewhere if he is not contributing an equal amount to equity.


I'm not very business savy... I kind of understand what you're saying. I'll have to read over it again.


Originally Posted by Gerda

Child support is based on his income and should be done through the state. No discussion, no negotiation. The percentage the state requires is tied to his income and you don't have to check it, they will do that. You can also petition the family court for child support. This is the one thing the state is good at. Though I am remembering now that maybe you don't live in the US so maybe this isn't the case where you are, I always confuse your story with a few of the other "sophomores" here! : )


Yes, CS was figured out based on his income through the state. After I received my lovely divorce papers in the mail, I called CSEA (Child Support Enforcement Agency). XH lawyer should have filed CS form on his behalf, as stated in the agreement. XH lovely copy of divorce papers were mailed here, and a week later something else from his lawyer. (Probably a receipt). I asked where xh wanted his mail sent, and sent it. He is still at work, or just finishing up being at sea... remote... so might not have seen any paperwork yet. I made him aware of this CS form, days after I got the divorce papers, asked if he knew about it, and he was CLUELESS about it. DUH.... his lawyer prepared the agreement that mentions this form.. xh is CLUELESS to all of this..

Originally Posted by Gerda

You can be creative with solutions to get something equitable and cut all ties and give him some relief. He is pissed about your expenses but he's not totally wrong. It should be quantifiable, how you are getting paid spousal support by what numbers, even if it's via equity in the property as a lump sum. Everything should be quantifiable, you take this thing worth this much, he takes this thing worth the same. The only thing is that you get to have a place to live, even if you end up by offering a slow transfer -- e.g., you buy him out fully by 2025, and you have a staggered schedule of how that gets paid out. I can be more specific if you can.


Guess I can ask him to give me more details regarding what he meant by saying "You should buy the house. .."
My interpretation is, he suggesting I buy him out... I could ask, what he has in mind. Or just sell, was the other suggestion. Either way, something's got to happen. I know this.

Most important thing to take care of is D4. I can start transferring his portion of the rental income, if he's open to that. I don't see why he wouldn't be.

What else can I do? Besides seek the advice of a lawyer. Oh what fun divorce is,,, said no one.

I'm fine. Thankful that I can always find something to laugh about, most of the time.

smile


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Hi CanBird,

I just read your whole sitch and wanted to send positive vibes your way... this all is hard and you're doing so well.

I had a couple of questions/thoughts for you to take or leave. I also have to say if there is any way you could buy him out of the house, you should pursue it. I think you can count the rental income as income towards qualifying on the loan, since you've lived there for more than a year. And interest rates are so low right now, it might be at least worth looking into.

When my neighbor and his W divorced, he couldn't afford to buy her out right away so she stayed on the deed. But the equity in the home was capped at the appraised amount when they Dd so that he had a set amount to work towards and she wasn't gaining additional equity in the house. Did you guys do something like this?

And finally... you might consider, even if it is really tough for awhile, if you buy out your ex, to move you and D4 into your rental and rent out the bigger home. My friend did this in her D-- moved into the rental unit and rented out the main house-- which was emotionally difficult at first, but the rent on the main house nearly covers the mortgage of the full property. I'm not sure which island you're on, but once tourism comes back maybe you could look into AirBnB instead of a long-term rental, if it's legal and you're willing, for either house, you might be able to make significantly more $$ that way.

HUGS.


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So much thinking. The more I try to think of ways to save the house I live in, I wonder if it's really worth the stuggle.

It's a GREAT house, with a rental property on it (extra income) and a pool (lots of work, but love it).

IF I was to take on the house, I would take on the mortgage. Would I then be responsible for the home loan we also have? It's written in the agreement, that we are equally responsible for both.

Selling the house, paying off all debts, and then splitting the rest (with me getting $xxx,xxx more as written in the agreement) sounds like an easier less stressful plan to me.

Maybe if I'm lucky, someone will want to buy the house as is and furnished...lol... I'm not attached to any of the furniture.

Starting fresh sounds like a lovely thing and I feel like I'm leaning towards that, as I don't think I can afford to do the latter.


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CanBirderino -- I did not know you live in paradise. A house with a pool in Hawaii? Girl, you can MAKE money on that, not just pay your mortgage. Gosh I wish we could talk about this on the phone!!!

I need to go through your post in detail and will do that later but just to put this out there --

The house is a great investment. It is already I assume paying for itself. You are living there for free.

What if you moved to the rental portion, I assume that's smaller, and AirB'd the bigger house? Or keep renting out the rental and create a beautiful room for guests in your house and rent that out on AirB also? You can do this til you can buy him out.

That is the business I am in. One of them. And I am running on fumes. My H pays for nothing. Literally nothing. But I have held on to it all this way. One day I hope to buy him out and keep running my business. I am even thinking of taking all I learned and start flipping houses when my nightmare is over.

I am so sick and tired of women giving up on a viable business because a man is bullying them. Look up Laura Munson and her place Haven Home, see if you can find the column she wrote on figuring out a way to keep the house she loved.

I still don't understand all the loose ends of your agreement where you are still so tied together and so much vagueness about ownership and funds.

I have a great spreadsheet for calculating this stuff, if only I could give it to you!

But maybe I will make a sample one for you to show you how you can quantify all this and buy him out.

My advice is to buy him out, move to the rental or put a tiny house on your property, and start your vacation rentals!

Also this license stuff may be what you need for rentals in Hawaii but I am talking about taxes and accounting stuff. I am talking about quantifying what goes in and out and what is and isn't equity. I will try to write a sample for you to show you what I mean when I have a minute.


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Hi Gerda, Thanks for your reply. I'll do my best answer your questions.


Originally Posted by Gerda
CanBirderino -- I did not know you live in paradise. A house with a pool in Hawaii? Girl, you can MAKE money on that, not just pay your mortgage. Gosh I wish we could talk about this on the phone!!!

The house is a great investment. It is already I assume paying for itself. You are living there for free.
"
What if you moved to the rental portion, I assume that's smaller, and AirB'd the bigger house? Or keep renting out the rental and create a beautiful room for guests in your house and rent that out on AirB also? You can do this til you can buy him out.


We had planned on making our rental into a "Vacation Rental", and our very strict state made an addendum that prevented certain residential properties from doing such. We we're crushed. So yes, we could have, that was our intention. But with COVID, we are actually lucky we didn't have a vacation rental, because tourism came to a grinding halt for months. SO many restrictions in place that many of these places ended up going back to being landlords or have to sell.

The rental is small. I don't think I could fit all my personal stuff in there, let alone my daughters stuff. I'm not even sure if we could legally do it. It's been mentioned to me before. I'd go mental.


Originally Posted by Gerda

I am so sick and tired of women giving up on a viable business because a man is bullying them. Look up Laura Munson and her place Haven Home, see if you can find the column she wrote on figuring out a way to keep the house she loved.


I'd love nothing more than to keep the house. The cost of living in paradise is expensive. Now that my status has changed, I am applying for whatever assistance I qualify for. Every bit helps. Keeping my fingers crossed for assistance with childcare. And whatever we have to do to cut down on costs we are willing to do.

Originally Posted by Gerda

I still don't understand all the loose ends of your agreement where you are still so tied together and so much vagueness about ownership and funds.


Although we are legally divorce, 1 month, we have not really split anything up, other than the vehicles, because he has been away at sea for the season since April. He's finishing up, so things are unraveling at a slower than normal pace. While he's been away, D4 and I have been living in the home. Because of Covid, and because he was gone away for months, we didn't do anything, left everything the same.

We own the house together, and the property also has a tiny house on it that we rent out. Rental income goes into a joint account we have. A portion of that income goes toward a loan we have. Because of Covid, and because he was gone away for months, we didn't do anything, left everything the same.


Originally Posted by Gerda

My advice is to buy him out, move to the rental or put a tiny house on your property, and start your vacation rentals!


Forgive my ignorance here, but to buy him out, I need money. I've only been working at my new job a month, and as much as I'd love to make things work for D4 and I, I'm feeling at a loss when it comes to how to buy him out. Not sure a bank would qualify me for any loans. I'm not yet a us citizen (not yet... very soon) and I'm low income.

Originally Posted by Gerda

Also this license stuff may be what you need for rentals in Hawaii but I am talking about taxes and accounting stuff. I am talking about quantifying what goes in and out and what is and isn't equity. I will try to write a sample for you to show you what I mean when I have a minute.


Yes, please explain it to me as if you're talking to a six year old. I do want to understand how to make it work.

Today I sign up for my own auto insurance. Next is my cell phone plan.


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Ps-Gerda... I read the article you suggested. What I got out of it was to brainstorm and come up with ways for extra income. Well, I'm trying to sell things. Every little bit helps.


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I'm still waiting for CS. Waiting for it to come as intended, as stated in the agreement. I should not have to wait.

I've asked, in the nicest way, trying to keep it business.

CanBird: "Hi, Just so there's no troubles for either of us, C.S. should be followed by what's in the agreement we signed."
...(I then provided auto trans details, I went onto another topic & ended with small talk & well wishes)

XH: "Don't understand what you mean by troubles"

I can't believe he just can't say OKAY. or Will do.

I understand his thinking, and don't agree with it. He thinks I should use the rental income towards D4s CS.
Do I HAVE to spell it out for him? That's not in the agreement AND after making other payments for the rental (a loan and bills) there isn't enough money for her full CS. I do not want to rely on that income for her CS. I don't want to use part of it and have to ask him to cover the rest.

I don't think it is wise to dip into the rental funds for something he should be paying from his account. If he wants me transfer his portion of the rental funds (after payments have been applied) I will GLADLEY do so. As for now, the income sits in our joint account. That's got to change. SOMEthing has to change...


PS- Yesterday I got myself set up for auto insurance & today I got set up for my own phone plan.
I made sure to let XH know.

Last edited by CanBird; 11/28/20 09:11 PM.

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Can, I looked up your state. Hawaii has the same child support enforcement set up as my state. Do not talk to H about it anymore. Give them the whole file. They will set up an account and take the money out of his paycheck and put it in your account for you to access for D4. No discussion with him needed. Keep records of every time he does not pay. Your agreement says to pay child support. You are not making a new agreement with the rental income. Keep everything very clear and separate.

I still don't understand why your D agreement didn't specify if you get to stay in the house til D is 18 and then split the sale or if you have to sell it now, etc. Why would a judge leave you with all those loose ends? It's not even an equitable set up, and if you were the homemaker all these years, YOU GET ALIMONY.

If you don't want to go after that for peace reasons, I get it. But it seems like you got a little shafted, except for getting to stay in the house. But that should have been quantified as part of the deal.

But if you want to just start from where you are --

Let's suppose your house appraises for $100,000 (I know it's way more, this is just for simple math) and there is $30,000 of mortgage and $20,000 of your other house loan on it.

So the equity is $50,000, $25,000 is yours and $25,000 is H's.

The ability of the property to earn money is just part of the appraisal value. You don't have to think about that for the deal with H.

So H is owed $25,000.
But of that $25,000, you get a credit of $5,000 for the money you put in to buy it.
So H is owed $20,000.

I think from what you said above, there is no other deductions you can take.

You are not currently in a position to refinance the property for the $50,000 of loans plus the $20,000 for H.

But you might be able to get a modification of the loans. EVERYONE is modifying loans right now. If it's a Freddy or Fannie Mac, they have an automatic modification that will lower your monthly payments.

Either way, you only need to come up with the $20,000 for H. It might be a lot for you right now but it's something that is possible. It will buy you time and allow you to cut ties with H. Then if you have to sell even six months from now, you can do it on your own, your own way.

If you have no way to pay him that 20K, you can offer a payment plan, where you give him something down, whatever you can borrow from family or something, and the rest you can pay monthly or yearly, to pay him off over the next three years, or five or one, whatever you need.

Now about the house.

I think you need to rethink that. You have the chance to own a valuable property in HAWAII by yourself. You can decide in a year if you want to sell it or not. For now, it's an investment opportunity.

Watch a bunch of tiny house videos on youtube. See how other people do it. Put stuff in storage or purge it. Move to the tiny house. Make your daughter the cutest little fairy bedroom ever in the loft. Build a huge deck so you have tons of outdoor space added to your living space. Rent out the big house to someone for one year and use the money to pay H off for his share of the equity.

(It could even be worth taking a partner -- e.g., if someone gives you $20,000 for H, they would be a 20% owner in the property, not a 50% owner. Bank as partner is better, you can pay them off and be done, 20% owner would get 20% when you sell. But it's still better than 50% owned by H!)

Create an LLC to collect rents, do that now. Let's say your tenant pays $10. You pay $8 of that to the joint account as rental income and leave the other $2 to use for rental expenses, repairs, etc. On your taxes, your rental income is $8, not $10. It really will help.

And you need that half of his rental income to show as his income, as it will be part of the child support calculation!

Also you need the child support earmarked as a specific payment, separate from anything else, because you can declare it as income when you refinance or get a new mortgage.

I hope this is not too much info.

Last edited by Gerda; 11/28/20 11:32 PM.

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5 txt msgs.... of course my anxiety escalated. And then I pulled up my big girl pants and read what he had to say.

He responded to me getting my own phone plan... A sentence broken up in 4 msgs,

And the 5th msg.... WOW!

XH: Work on the bank stuff later

Has there been a breakthrough? I LOVE how vague this msg is. WHAT does that mean? I can only give my interpretation, which is he's actually thinking about the situation, rather than just reacting.

Who knows what he'll come up with. I can only look ahead, and not look back at the things I "should of/could of" done differently.

Fingers crossed that THIS plan is followed out as it was meant to happen. He knows that I'm all about sticking to the rules, so perhaps he has finally look at things from my perspective, and realized that it's not only what I want it's what we ARGREED to do.

Faith Over Fear


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Let’s do the math. The property is an asset worth the sales price (minus realtors fees) minus what is owed on the mortgage (and on the second loan if it is secured by the property.)

So - let’s throw out some sample numbers and see how the math might work. Adjust by putting in your real numbers.

Assume:
Property worth 600k
Mortgage of 400k
Equity of 200k (minus maybe $40k in realtor fees/repairs etc if sold)
Rental income from small unit of $1,000 a month
Rental income potential of house $2500 a month

To buy him out (pay him $100k or, if he’ll accept your argument that realtors fees would eat 6% of that if the house was sold, get him to agree to $94k)
Get help from a parent to refi - if they could co-sign - and have a mortgage of $500k with a PITI payment on a 30 year fixed mortgage of around $2600 (or more depending on your property taxes ) .

At that payment, you could live in the small rental and pay the mortgage expenses from renting the house, with only repairs and maintenance for your housing costs. OR you could stay in the house and after rental income your cost to live in the house would be $1600 a month plus repairs/maintenance. If you could get a roommate for one bedroom in the house, you could cut your expenses even more.

Now I realize that unless you are in a very low cost area of Hawaii, all these numbers are likely much higher, probably double.

I echo what Gerda has to say about considering living in the small rental if you really want to keep the house. People live in tiny houses, it’s different but doable - and if it

Another alternative, if you really cannot afford to stay, is to sell, and take your share of the equity to move to a much lower cost area. If you stay in the US, don’t forget about health insurance costs in your calculations. My medical assistant just moved to Florida to be near her elderly parents, and bought a nice 2 bedroom 1400 s.f. Condo for about $210k. (Florida isn’t my cup of tea but if you want warm weather and a lower cost of living...)


Plug your numbers into all of this. It may or may not make sense to keep it.

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