A typical Cliche

[Illidin]

If anyone wants to chime in not on what they discuss but the process with there therapist I would appreciate.

Hi Illidin,

Many therapists are trained in a few therapeutic approaches, just as massage therapists may be trained in Swedish or Deep Tissue. It's partly about your needs. I alternated between two modes with my therapist--

(1) Emotional Resilience - When I felt overwhelmed, I'd share my thoughts and feelings. She'd listen and help me see patterns triggering me or making me happy, raise options I hadn't considered, help me see the negatives and positives, slow down my decision-making. She'd never answer, "What choice should I make?"

(2) Life Progress - When I wasn't overwhelmed I'd work towards tangible progress in several areas of my life. In this role she was more assertive, checking in on areas I didn't mention, proposing solutions.

Approach #1 was more appropriate when my brain spun through thoughts and I couldn't take key actions the logical side of my brain identified as best. We focused on Approach #2 more as that dropped away.

Thanks CW I really appreciate the insight. I will admit I was always very sceptical of this treatment in general. So im trying to fully understand it.

[SteveLW]

The things that make obvious sense to me moving her out of the bedroom (which I haven't decided on yet. If it comes up again I won't stop as before.) Asking her to leave. I've already stated that I think this is not beneficial to me short or long term. Cutting her off finaincly. This actual isn't an option as there isn't a situation where I support her any more then she supports me. The bills are split and the extra I bring in goes to emergency accounts and vacation funds. I reviewed the budget where she would pay for her share and me mine and she would have even more money to herself as I wouldn't expect her to pay half of my car payment anymore. You have to understand that our budget has been based on a combined income not singular incomes our entire lives. We didn't live or work independently ever. I have already been working on accepting this and moving past some of my grief which I believe has to be the first step to detachment. I rarely even in our marriage tolerated complete disrespect as you mentioned but it hasn't been any issue at this time anyway. She is a complete joy to be around all the time unless I pursue and push her buttons. Then she simply withdraws from any conversation no mean words or anger. I could work on ignoring her text some assuming she ever sends me one that isn't just a typical courtesy text of I'm not coming back for dinner or I've arrived at my destination safely. I'm really not sure what else tough love could be I don't really believe it's disrespect so I can't just be mean or go around informing everyone about the affair so she can feel slut shamed or something. It already been made pretty clear I should keep the entire sitch as quiet as possible if I want to hope for reconcile.

Yep, your instincts are correct on tough love. Yes cutting her off financially would be one option, but every situation is different. We typically tell LBSs not to fund your WW's lifestyle, or pay them to cheat and leave you. But again, that is based on everyone situation. But you get the point. sandi may have some additional ideas. And the tough love thing is kind of controversial. Since sandi is a former WW I personally would listen to her, but there are others here that do no advocate tough love, at least some of the tactics we've discussed. And anyone reading this should understand that WWs are not the same as regular WAWs.

[sandi2]

Still don't know how the process works I'd say but I'm hoping we can start working on strategies to work on my problems soon.

I don't know how other religious sponsored therapy sessions may be conducted, but if you get the feeling he is trying to incorporate the belief system into your sessions, then you can decide if you want to continue or find an IC that's not paid by religious funding. I'm not trying to debate it, I just wanted you to know they aren't Christian.

If anyone wants to chime in not on what they discuss but the process with there therapist I would appreciate. Are you giving like homework, coping mechanisms, things to actually apply to life to help you change habits or is it just all self realization?

I have had little personal experience for myself. I put my daughter in counseling, to help her cope with the disease she had. It was horrible! The guy was later fired. From what I read about other's experience, it depends on the IC. If he knows you are there to find out how to heal, improve, fix, or whatever......then, hopefully, he will give you the how-to. Some IC's just listen, ask about your past, etc. That seems logical to me, but I agree with you.......give me something on paper. I don't think it would hurt to ask him, after all, why shouldn't you know the plan of operations?

I'm not sure what holes in particular your talking about but I have tried to be as honest as possible at least from my perspective.

Oh, no! As I told you, I didn't mean I thought you were lying. I apologize for using poor wording. I am guilty of trying to get a picture in my head about the LBS and what he's all about. Why did he interact with his W the way he did, and why the MR derailed. I only meant that I was having trouble finding the missing pieces to the puzzle.

Like I said I didn't take the time to walk into her job to give her things, every now and again I did but mostly I didn't.

Neither did my H, but I didn't want him coming to my job and giving me flowers or some gift. To me, it felt as if it was all for show. Having flowers delivered felt a little differently, but no, I didn't want him showing at work.

I did always hold her hand out in public, I talked about her with everyone I ever met, (Something I know for a fact she didn't do about me. Sometimes I met people she worked with for months who didn't know about me. Probably should have been a red flag.)

Everyone has different feelings about showing romantic gestures. Some women have a need for the H to give some signs of affection while in front of other people. I wasn't one who wanted it, but apparently, your W was. Did she initiate affection with you, while in front of others? Strange that she would not even mention she had a H, if she wanted flowers & gifts at work.

I was always affectionate with her, I always was trying to talk to her, to do things she wanted, to take her out. I bought gifts, I went out of my way to get things she wanted even in the middle of night and during storms. I filled her car with gas every week before she could even think about it.

Wow! Now you are sharing the more positive side of you, whereas, previously you were mostly showing the negative. Look, everyone has their own language of love. Have you ever read that book about the five love languages? If not, I think you might find very enlightening. I can clearly see where my H and I missed the mark, and were not doing the things that each other needed. My H is not a talker, and I craved for him to share his ideas, goals, desires, etc. I needed him to talk to me intimately, and feed my ego. That would have made me feel extremely close to him. I could probably count on one hand how many times it happened, and you would think he could see how I was so happy as a result of it. His love language is acts of service, which I didn't know until I read the LL book. It all made sense after I received a tiny bit of education in this area.

I believe it's very important, Illidin, to try to fill the emotional needs of our spouse, not as a way to change them over to what we want them to do, but we do it b/c we love them. For example, you probably didn't particularly want to get up in the middle of the night and go out into a storm to get something she wanted. I mean, who would? Doing it b/c you love her, is the right motive. Doing it b/c you want something from her in return, isn't the right motive. That's JMHO. In other words, if you expected her to have more sex with you b/c you are busting your chops doing things you believe she wants..........it may blow up in your face, if she thinks otherwise. It sounds logical, doesn't it? IDK, but I think there are a lot of H's who believe it is not only rational, but that's how it should work in MR.

If the W is unhappy b/c her emotional needs are not being met, and if those things you are doing is not her love language, or it does nothing to inspire her affection........then you may not see much change in the bedroom. She might appreciate what you did, but she doesn't see sex as a trade off, so to speak. Speaking from my experience, I resented him for thinking I should give him sex b/c he did something nice for me. I can have a healthier understanding about it now, but that wasn't the case when we were younger. The way you describe your W's shyness, make me think of myself the first several years of M. My H and I were each other's first, too. I went into M very uneducated about sex, and I didn't have a clue about men's needs, etc.

Some women start taking for granted her nice-guy H, who will get up in the middle of the night to get whatever she wants. Her appreciation meter fails to register. Like me, I knew my H was a nice-guy and if I asked, he would usually do it. Did he get any favors in return? He didn't get the ones he thought he should have (more sex), which may be completely normal for a man to see it that way. So, you can see the problem. It wasn't about who was to blame. Neither of us seem to understand the emotional needs of the other one. It seems simple looking back, but relationships are very complex.

Were there somethings that she disliked that I felt was core part of my being that until very recently I didn't really work on? Things like the fact that I have very limited tonal range. It rarely changes but that doesn't mean I'm not happy or excited. My wife constantly said she couldn't feel those things from me most of the time. And me telling her was never good enough. I still dont really know how to work on that, people who like or tolerate me say I'm very stoic and it took a long to learn how to not feel like I was mad or unhappy even when I was having happy conversations.

I have a relative who people quickly judge as being socially weird. Some think he is high level retarded. Some have asked me if he is autistic. Since his parents are closely related to me, I know how he was raised. One of his parents wasn't the idea role model for how one interacts socially, and the other parent didn't seem to know he needed to be taught. He really wasn't taught, IMHO, how to interact in any type of setting, to be honest. He appeared very immature, talked too much, sounded immature for his age, couldn't make eye contact, etc. His physical skills were delayed when he was a baby, which concerned me, but his parents refused to have him tested. I could go on & on, but I really don't know how much of his lack of social skills is the result of his own parents inability to teach/train him, and how much is a mental defect. Does that make sense? I have always thought his social awkwardness could improve drastically, if he knew what to change. Now for someone like myself, I always wonder why a person couldn't simply observe the behavior of others, but then I've never been in his shoes, nor your shoes. My mother taught her children how to interact with people, and how to behave in different settings (when to have fun and when to be serious). Like you, he had few friends, had very few girlfriends, etc. So, I may not really understand your situation. but I want you to know it really touches my heart, and I want to see you happy with who you are as a man.

I think, as a society, we expect everyone to act a certain way (usually like us). The minute someone doesn't have the facial expressions, verbal response, and mannerisms we think are molded in every person........we tend to distant ourselves from that individual. Your W knows you better than anyone, and maybe she feels you could blend in better if you just tried harder, IDK. Maybe she sees you like I see my relative, and believes your parents failed in that department.

It was selfish but it use to really depress me that she couldn't understand me enough to love me and not a version of me. Now I realize that isn't true and its something I can change my habits on.

We women can be guilty of trying to get our H to change. I don't why, but we seem to feel he could improve. If he was good enough for us to marry, then why do we try to change him? If you find the answer, you could become a rich man!

You asked if anyone ever taught me about how to treat a women how to cherish them? I dont fully understand this, do you mean did someone actually sit down and talk to me? No, is that something people do with their sons? I thought people just learned those things over time through trial and error.

Sometimes we learn from our role models how to treat a spouse, whether it's negative or positive. Some fathers or older males in their life will occasionally talk to the younger one about women. I don't mean just sex talk, but tell them how women want to be treated, and what works in a MR and what doesn't. Some mothers teach their sons how to treat a woman well, lovingly, etc. I was determined if I ever had sons, I would teach them from the woman's point of view. It doesn't guarantee they will have successful relationships, but they can't say they went into it blind, not understanding what a woman needs. I know that everyone doesn't have those people who will have those type of talks that prepares a young man for life, much less about the emotional needs of a woman, and how to properly treat her. So, I'm not shooting you down. I'm just getting to know who you are.

Knowing that your home had parents with some mental illness issues, gives an explanation to some of the questions I had. When a person is raised very traditionally with healthy/loving parents, it's a little harder for them to identify with a person who didn't have the same atmosphere or conditions growing up. However, I try to empathize when I am enlightened from someone who has lived it.

I have heard my wife say I dont think like normal people a million times. I dont know why that is. I never entirely even understood it. I view the world very logically and from and I guess my viewpoint is wrong.

I wouldn't say your viewpoint is wrong. I've known people (especially men) who had stoic expressions, who seemed to be serious all time, and wouldn't lighten up and joke around like I did. They were often labeled as not having a friendly or outgoing personality. I've known them to be extremely logical in their thinking and approach to everything. It doesn't make them wrong, weird, or a misfit in life. In fact, there have been several that I highly respected, based on their character......not on their sunny personality.

I'm going to end here, since it's so long. But I'm going to continue on a new post. (I seem to be doing that a lot lately.)

[sandi2]

Part 2......... (Illidin, please read my previous post.)

I want you to know that the other board members (that I've seen) do not write like I do........which, you'll be glad to hear. I don't want you to think I'm trying to be some wannabe therapist, b/c that's not the case....even if you may think I sound it.

I realize that now even more than before as people here kind of treat me like a unique case, at least feel that way. Unfortunately I did always view it as a positive, I took pride in the fact that social norms didn't control me. That ive never really felt a lot pressure to do things I don't want to do because other people feelings towards me don't really affect me that strongly.

I want to touch on what you said here, b/c in my previous post I talked about some people appearing socially awkward and how people misjudge them as being weird. If your conduct, decision-making, etc., was based on your core values and moral integrity........then be proud. Nobody is saying you need to follow the crowd just so you feel like you fit somewhere. That's exactly what we try to teach children, right? Do what is right, not what is popular.

I haven't seen anyone here treating you differently. I'm just as blunt with you as I am with others.

After reading more from you, I can't help but wonder if you wouldn't have to figure out how to survive as a "loner", since you didn't have friends growing up. It takes courage to be alone, as most of us experience once we start school and see kids in groups, etc. For some reason, being physically alone today, causes you insecurity. I don't know how much that little boy had to make himself believe it didn't bother him what others thought. How many times you played that mental recording in your head. How much anger it might cased you to feel. Like I said, kids have to figure out a way to live with the cards they were dealt at the time. Something caused your fear, insecurity, and extreme negativity about everything. Something caused you to feel the need to control the one person who didn't reject you. If you don't know what that something is, then hopefully, the IC will help you find the source. In order to find a solution, you have to shine the light on the real source of your problems. You can't ignore it or bury it and think you can overcome it through shear inner strength and determination alone, IMHO. It will always come bleeding through in your actions. It's always there under the surface. If you already know what has caused you to live in fear and insecurity, but you don't know a solution and try to have the attitude that you can't change the past.......then the chances of life long improvements are lowered. It's true that we can't change what happened to us as children. We can't change the past, as early as yesterday. I get the feeling that you are searching for the solutions to save your MR. I hope you will also search for solutions that help the boy that was rejected and made to feel he was different.

Recently though I just want to feel normal. Now more than ever as it has cost something I can't really replace. I mean even if I changed and found a new life and a new family, even if I was happier in that regard then now. I still lost someone so very important to me. I think that will haunt me forever.

I want you to feel good about being you. Get help for those inner nightmares that plaque you.

Quote
Oh goodness! You summed it up pretty well, with only a few words. smile My story is way too long to read.

I meant no disrespect, I'm not sure if you felt I kinda understood or your being sarcastic in the first line

Sorry, it's my brand of humor. I'm always making fun of myself for writing novels to explain something, while most of the LBH's here can say just as much in a couple of sentences.

I think maybe I understand better now. Your husband basically got lucky. That you found your own path back and the tough love you got essential came from this forum.

Exactly! In fact, I was going to explain in this post how the board gave me that tough love. Usually, it's the LBS who comes here looking for help, so they are the ones getting the tools. When it's a wayward spouse who signs up, it's different. I mean, the DB books are more geared for the spouse who wants to save the M, which is not the norm joining the board. So, when I read the book, I didn't feel it was speaking directly to me, but it wasn't useless. I was the lucky one, b/c I had some great mentors. One gal was just about as blunt and straight shooting as I am, and that's what's I needed. So wow......you are beginning to understand me, which is a talent b/c my mind runs faster than I type and some people may think I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. If it ever see sounds that way to you, just ask and I will do my best to clean up my mess.

I get that your years here have really pointed to tough love being what helps people cheating hit bottom and yes I can look it up. But I am here for support and help, you have no obligation to answer, but you have some understanding my life right now. I

One reason I stress tough love is b/c the majority of LBH's who come to the board are men with NGS (nice guy syndrome). I have observed it for years, and it's amazing, but it makes sense to me b/c I know the mindset of the WW. These nice-guy LBH's don't understand tough love, and are scared to try it. It's a foreign concept to them, b/c it feels opposite to what they think should work to get her back. That's why I wrote that little bit in my signature line. It's not what he thinks should work. The WW is not logical. She disrespects him, resents him, and is rebelling against him and their M. So, it's about what works to get the right results. There have been very few WW's to show up on the board, but those that have fully support the message I try to give LBH's. I don't even think WW's and WH's are exactly the same, b/c they are wired differently. So, I mostly stick to posting LBH's who have a WW. Occasionally, I will talk to the LBW's.

I would love to hear what you would do in regards to tough love. Im not asking to be told what to do just what you think might have worked best for you in my situation.

I tell you what. I would love to tell you about tough love, b/c it may or may not be anything like you perceive. I will try to tell give you some idea of the mindset of a WW. In fact, I have several threads on the subject. I'll copy & paste the links. Now, I'll warn you, I had several people posting and asking questions about their own personal sitch, so don't let that distract you. Also, I had a couple of friends (who are rock stars in the DB hall of fame) to give their input.

Here's you some homework to read:

First thread
For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1

Second thread
For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490#Post2548490

Third thread
For the LBH who has a WW Part 3
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551039#Post2551039

4th thread
Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551811#Post2551811

5th thread
Help for LBH who has a WW (new thread)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post2593214



If you run out, I can give you a couple more, but these threads will hopefully give you a picture of the WW.

When you read these threads and if nothing said reminds you of your W......let me know, okay?

One more thing. When you read that first thread, don't jump into something before first discussing it here. Just want to make sure you aren't doing it to be doing "something", and I want you to know what it is you are doing, first.

((hugs))

[Illidin]

Sandi- I read through your threads before but I read through them again. I do sometimes see aspects of my wife in those threads and myself as well in some your lists about things that destroy a marriage. I still don't really know what to do though. The only thing I can really do based on what you and a lot people seem to think is ask her to leave, which she has no obligation to do and I don't know if she would. Or leave myself which is of course something I don't want to do either. As ive mentioned before. There isnt much else. We already dont do laundry together, her decision after moving out of the bedroom this last weekend. She already pays her own bills and phone. I won't take care of her car or anything but it's not like shes not capable I just always felt like that was something a man should do for his wife. Honestly even if she left or I did I'm not sure I have any kind hope she would even realize she misses anything about us. Unlike a lot of what I read on here my wife is not having an affair with a single person. Its not something where she wants any kind of commitment or plan. She wants independence and as a part of that she wants to be able to have whatever fun she wants to have with whomever. So there isn't going to be a falling out that breaks her, she has already fallen out with multiple people since this started. Her net grows everyday the Facebook group feels like this almost meaningless harmless website in comparison to her actively searching people out with the close location finders shes using now. I feel like your definition of a wayward wife is more about being lost in the fantasy of what this new life with a different partner can be like but maybe I'm just reading into it. I just can't imagine what kinda bottom this could have for her. She has an entire lifetime to re-live that she missed out on because of me. I feel like thats what she wants to reclaim. The time so many people spend trying to learn whats important in a relationship, in sexual preference, in hobbies, friends etc.The men are just one byproduct of that. Along with her new vape and drinking. Constant late nights and traveling on a whim. None of this is based on seeing someone in particular. I know that because I see the pictures and speak to the family shes with.

As far as how the last week as more or less gone well I can't say its too much different than before. My wife is gone most days of week. Somehow the friends that never seem to have time for her before have all the time in world recently, maybe because everyone is stuck at home. Sometimes she tells me about it but rarely. I had couple of days I felt like I had a lot of calm of acceptance of the situation I wasn't being bothered by much and was able to enjoy some of my time again. That was fine until I was helping her do some math and was looking at her phone and she get snapchat form some new guy I've never seen. I spiraled again and things went of the rail. That put me back in a depression the next day. On Saturday we moved the bedrooms. That was a very bad day. It was a whole lot to take and it became a lot worse as the day went on. We had to make decision about various things in the house and hearing talk about stuff was terrible. In the guest bedroom we keep some kids stuff, a rocking horse thats a dinosaur, and a toy chest full of clothes and toys that we have bought or my wife made going all the back to when we were 13 years old. I asked what she wanted to do with it and she said I don't know we'll just sell the stuff. No emotion at all. This stuff use to be the most important things to her, they have survived her being kicked out of her parents house, and 5 moves over the course of 13 years and just like they don't even matter to her to keep for herself. When I asked about it she said she didn't care about those goals anymore those were about a life she had where she thought she would have this great family and husband with me. There were many things like that, photos, cards, mementos, the entirety of our life together and what I always perceived as her identity no longer matters. She talked about selling basically all of her collectibles and what not as well. Lots of them are gifts from me but a lot of those hobbies predate even me being with her. It was all too much for me. We talked a lot of the over years about what would happened if ever broke up. About how you can't just erase history like ours. These memories would always be important to us even if something came between us. But apparently we were wrong. None of it means anything to her anymore. I spent most of the day talking about our past and trying to understand how all of these things just don't matter anymore. By the end of the day I was anger I demanded more information about how this happened, about what was going on now. Why she insisted on staying with me. How she truly can be so done with me but sit there and watch me literally rot from the inside out wanting to be with her. As usual I got no answers just complacent attitude about how its not my business.

Strangely I've been in an overall better place since then. I'm still not doing great but overall I don't feel as empty. On mothers day she refused to go to my parents even after my mother asking her specifically if she was coming just a couple days before and her telling her we were coming to keep face. We just lied and said both of our mothers made plans at the same time and she went there. Mind you in 13 years that has never happened, she always chose my parents first and then we would go to hers after even if the event was over. My mother was odd all day. She knows our behavior recently has been very different. She mentioned how skinny I looked and I gladly agreed I had lost a good amount. I've lost about 20 pounds in 2 months. Its not for the right reasons but I'm not really unhappy about it. I felt pretty lonely and on edge but overall it was a nice day. I left after a couple hours and went to my sisters to deliver a trashcan I had for her. Spent some time there and just unwinded. After that I decided I would go to my in laws, I wasn't fully decided all day and after the fight the night before I wasn't sure my wife would even let me. But again she was completely unconcerned if I wanted to come then fine otherwise it didn't matter. I don't how much more time I'll get to spend with them so I don't want to miss some time to spend with them. My wife just more or less ignored me as if I was another person in the room nothing special. Spoke to me some in relation to the conversation, rarely looked at me, never touched me. Rolled off any comment about us as a couple that was made. I'm glad I went though, I made a point not be reserved, to be open and have conversation with everyone in a way I rarely do. It was nice, I had fun being apart of the group. Some conversations were awkward. My wife is planning another trip to Vegas in June for our godsons 5th birthday. Apparently she was planning on taking our little sister, she hadn't told me that. That kicked off the whole rest of the family planning to go though so now everyone is going. This conversation was happening when I got there halfway through, Bill her grandfather, asked me so your not going right? So my wife most have already excused me form the trip prior to me arriving. I just said I wasn't sure, I would like too but I'm not sure what happening with work yet. Over all I left with a big smile on my face. In the driveway though any amount of act to be happy around me went straight out the window and she just bye. I grabbed some dinner and gas and went home, I saw her for a minute before she went to her room and that was it. Before her moving rooms I at least saw her regularly and we talked somewhat normally. Now hardly at all.

The last 2 days have been up and down. I feel okay for the most part. but things set me off occasionally. Yesterday it came to my attention that my wife is now a moderator on the facebook group. That hurt alot. I spent a couple hours thinking through a lot of emotions after that. I really just want to talk to her to try to get her to help to understand again. I just want to know what exactly it is she wants in life. What about all of this makes her life so much better. I also feel like I don't know how much of our life together might have been a lie. I just want honesty, more than anything right now I want the truth about what was maybe not said or what else happened in the past behind my back. My sister just happened to text at that moment and said her bf was asking about me and if I was coming by today. Thinking about it now I hope Im not being a burden but at the time it really made me feel good to be thought about. I went by and had dinner. I had a really good time overall. Had some actually conversation not about me. I'm trying really hard to be better at interacting socially. My sister got herself a little drunk on accident so we called it a night a little early. My wife took off with a friend after work so I didn't see her until about midnight. We talked for a minute and I complimented the new jacket she bought and she went to bed.

Right this second I feel kinda okay overall. But I didn't work today and ended up sleeping until noon so I know I'm not doing great. I would normally get up early and at least find things do around the house or take care of errands. But I did things like that because I took pride in our home and wanted to have time to spend with my wife. That no longer really matters though so I just have no drive to do any of it. My yard is atrocious, I normally take a lot of pride in it. Wife said she probably wouldn't come home again until late since her and her friend didn't get to go everywhere they planned yesterday. so I guess it will be another empty house day. The emptiness of this master bedroom is disheartening. I rarely sleep longer than an hour before I wake up tossing. I did the same thing any time she was gone before. I had some weird dreams last night. One where she was just blatantly mean to me about other men. One where I bonded with my little brother on her side. and one where things were normal again. Of course the last one hurt the worse. I do feel like I'm starting to come to terms with what is happening though. That the grief isn't as strong anymore. It lets me be able to think through my actions more reasonably. Maybe I really needed to let the anger boil on Saturday. I have had lots of thoughts as you can see but for the last 2 days I haven't said anything to my wife outside of general chit chat. I'm not sure when the last time she even asked about how my day was or even what I did.

[Illidin]

My wife just came home for a second after to work to start laundry before heading back out. Her actions right now have been something that's been bothering me as well that I keep forgetting to talk about. It's just something that I guess I don't see get brought up much elsewhere. Normally it feels like other sitchs are dealing with manipulation of crumb droppings in these regards but not me. So first off she came home to start laundry normally she would just ask me to do it in fact this the first week in years I haven't been doing all the laundry. It's just something I've always done cause she use to work weekends. When she moved into the bedroom she took our spare hamper and said she'd deal with her own stuff I figured well good cause I should stop anyway. When she was in Vegas I didn't get to check the car before. So I texted her uncle and had him checkn it there. It was in fact low on coolant and he took care of it. When she got back complained for min about me not taking better care of it but quickly changed her point to she wanted to be taught what she needed to keep an eye on and how to do it and I should at least be able to do that. That she had been asking to be shown forever, which I've actually shown her various things before and talked to her about watching her gas, walking her tires, occasionally checking the oil and coolant. And of course watching her milage for oil changes. She rarely remembers to even check her gas let alone rememberdms the things we've talked about but now she wants to taught again. That led into a conversation about knowing how to pay her bills online, her student loans, credit card etc. Mind you she created or was there when they were created but had just never really bothered to learn because I take of it. In a strange way she kinda doesn't know how to be an adult but would only ask about the things in passing usually while we were out and if tell her okay tell me when we get home and we sit down and go through everything. But she never did and j would forget. Even this time I told we could look at but she wanted to take shower first and then went to bed. So today she was getting light bulb but she couldn't reach she instantly asked me for help and then said nevermind and got the step stool I bought for her 3 years ago and used it. I think this is the 1st time she's ever used it. Basically my wife has no interest in getting help from me anymore. She wants to be independent even in the little things like reaching a cupboard. I guess I just don't see that behavior too often from the other people posting. It's usually a weird limbo vs hard decision.

[Illidin]

Woke up with the heart attack feeling of anxiety today. So much for having some calm. But at least my wife came home today, I know that I'm making no progress while my emotions are still tied to her. I think we can all agree that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't, at least with the way my mind runs away. Since I knew she was home I cooked dinner while she did homework or at least said she did. Know that she has her room she does everything in there. Years and years she complained about how she couldn't sit on that bed and thats why she would stay in the living room when I wanted to lay down for a little while, I have a rough back so every now and again I just need to stretch it out while I'm relaxing vs sitting.I brought it up jokingly today and she said this bed was fine its the cal king in the bedroom she cant sit in. We only got the cal king last year before that we had the queen in the bedroom for 5 years or so, whatever I guess. Later she was complaining about being tired but knowing she would have a second wind. Of course I made the mistake of trying to fix. Told her if she didn't play on her phone before sleeping when she laid down and maybe went for a walk after dinner she would be good. We fixed it that way years ago when she had a really early job and it only got messed up again in the last couple years. She got an attitude and told me not to try and fix her. After that we had a nice dinner watched a couple hours of tv and then she went to her bedroom. I'm calm now I guess no pain or anxiety. I hate everything about whats going on but there isn't any pain right now. I really don't know how much hope I have anymore, still looking for a positive outcome though. Doing my best to keep my mouth shut even though I want to talk so badly.

On another note of what feels like failure I worked up the courage to finally talk to a mutual friend of ours. I know I know clean pavement but I've been wanting to ask her about this for a long time now and It kinda helped with my perspective even if it was exactly what I thought I would hear. She and her guy had a falling out years ago, he was cheating on her and she had had enough moved back to her parents for a bit but was also quickly seeing another guy. The story it turns was more complicated than that she had been cheating first and then he started and they lived that way for a bit and then she finally decided she couldn't take it anymore and left so she could sort herself out and let him be with the other girl. He fought back for there relationship though and she started hooking up with their room mate to push him away. In the end they both decided to move past the cheating and work on each other. I had never got the full story before now, even after all these years. Me and the wife treated her guy with a lot of disrespect over the years, that he didn't really deserve it turns out, made our friendship with them very strained in fact. We trusted her decision but we were bothered by his actions. But there story made sense. I asked her since you both loved each other the whole time in your minds but simply found the needs that were missing elsewhere did you ever not feel remorse at the time for it? She said she felt bad the whole time. I guess thats the rub huh. Affairs happen all the time and lots of couples move forward but a lot probably happen as a band aid that they recognize is wrong. Not as a deep emotional disconnect like in my sitch. I wanted to know how she forgave but it wasn't that hard I'm sure. The truth is I love my wife and I forgive her right now for what happened. The problem is she doesn't believe it was a bad thing. She already didn't care about me at all. Forgiveness is easy because of how much I care, trust is the hard part. But none of those matters cause of where we are. Its so silly but I truly needed this wake up call. I would never have truly faced myself and the problems that have held me back forever without it. I wish she had just had a fling that tore her up inside because she loved me years ago because the shock would have woke me up. We would have had a long time sorting that as well but I was never ready to admit my problems before now. The words she said in anger the times she threatened to leave and I made empty promises to change knowing that I would forget them when the dust settled. More of my coping mechanisms in play if you say something to me shouting or in a fight it will almost always be forgotten. But these things didn't come up in the calm moments, the happy moments. At least not that I can remember.

I don't know what the future holds at his point at all. I do know that I want that future to include my wife but I honestly can't say I trust that it will. I don't know what that means for me. Most days I would rather just be done with all of this forever. I'm not sure if I'll really grasp this DBing well enough at all but I think that will be the plan ahead. I'm not even certain if that plan is in fact the right course but its the only one I seem to have.

[SteveLW]

Yeah....way too much focus on her. Where is your GAL? 180s? What are you doing to work on detachment?

The emotional roller-coaster is real and won't stop until you focus on you, not her.

[sandi2]

Honestly even if she left or I did I'm not sure I have any kind hope she would even realize she misses anything about us.

It's not so much about finding something to cause her to miss you, as it is about her facing consequences for her choices. The LBH has to stand up for what he believes is right. I’m not talking about controlling the WW. He cannot force her to change, but he doesn’t have to allow disrespect under his own roof. He is the leader in his family/home. He has to live his life based on his core values, integrity, principles, etc. If he is being the very best man he knows how to be…….. does that change if his W does not respond the way he hoped? I think not. Why would he stop being the best he can be?

Unlike a lot of what I read on here my wife is not having an affair with a single person. Its not something where she wants any kind of commitment or plan.

As I've stated previously, she doesn't have to be in one affair with one man. She doesn't even have to be in an affair at all. It's just that it's so common in the cases we read on the board. I want you to get your head out of this idea your W isn't wayward b/c she's not limiting herself to one particular man, and/or is not seeking a commitment. That may be what you've interpreted in some stories here, but I've read about women who never have a PA, but have an EA. Sometimes the OM doesn't even know he is the object of her fantasy, and other times, he does. On the other hand, I’ve read plenty of cases where the WW went wild and tried to sleep with everything that walked. I'm not sure if you are trying to find a loophole or if you really misunderstand what you've read. (I hope I don’t sound offensive by that statement.) If I've learned one thing since I've been on the board, is that some LBH’s had rather his W be anything other than a WW.......including her having a mental illness, which I think is pretty sad. Men will jump at diagnosing their W with MLC......but just don't pin that wayward label on her. To me, that says a lot about ego, plus, they don't understand the cornerstone of the WW mindset......all they see is their W's rejection and giving her time & attention (and maybe affection) elsewhere. Well, guess what? From what I've seen, so do the MLC crowd, and MLC usually lasts a lot longer, generally speaking.

She wants independence and as a part of that she wants to be able to have whatever fun she wants to have with whomever. So there isn't going to be a falling out that breaks her, she has already fallen out with multiple people since this started.

Her wanting independence, is just a nice way of her saying she wants to be free of you, and like you stated, she wants to be able to have whatever fun she wants with whomever.

Would you clarify what you mean by, “She is going to be falling out that breaks her”.

I feel like your definition of a wayward wife is more about being lost in the fantasy of what this new life with a different partner can be like but maybe I'm just reading into it.

It's not the definition, but I'd say her fantasy is definitely a driving force. Her fantasy shifts into high gear and that's usually when she starts acting like a woman her H doesn't recognize. Waywardness starts in the mind/heart. That's why I've tried to tell people that the W doesn't have to be in an affair to be identified as a wayward wife. It starts with her mindset. Over a period of time in the relationship, there's been unresolved issues, resentments, disappointments, bitterness, unforgiveness, etc., that she's attached to her H. Those feelings can cause a woman to slowly lose respect for her H. Her feelings of being "in love" and her desire/attraction is tied to her level of respect for her H. Eventually she begins to act out in some form of rebellion. At first, it might be something so small he just shrugs it off.

By the time you came to the board, she was probably engaging in some type of inappropriate behavior. Currently, you can see your W acting out in rebellion. Waywardness is about disrespect, resentfulness, selfishness, and rebellion. Rebellion can take on many forms. You can see it in kids, teenagers, young adults, and old people. Waywardness has no age limit.

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Okay, so let's look at you. You don't have to do anything we suggest, of course, but we do hope you'll consider some solutions. I often encourage the newcomer to think about his values and belief system, b/c that is essential in finding what works for him in any situation. Then, I strongly suggest you set goals. The goals are about you, and for you. Some people set wide range goals and break those down into smaller ones. You need a plan in how to get there. In other words, to say "My goal is to be a better man" is not specific. Break it down into smaller goals that build you into being the man you want to become. Does that make sense?

Some men make goals like, "My W will kiss me by the end of the month". Well, IMHO, the goal is about her. You may really desire her to kiss you........but I think it causes a H to subconsciously pursue her, trying to get that kiss. In cases such as yours, I believe you need to work on yourself, first. Before you jump off into broad goals of "being a better H", I suggest you set smaller, reachable goals of becoming a better man. You may be surprised to see how becoming a better man, is the solution to other problems.

I've seen some newcomers take on too many hard things at one time. For instance, they decide to go cold turkey on drinking, smoking, porn, sugar, and any other addictive hold in their life. It's too much to bite off together. Start small, and remember that we all reach our personal goals one day at time.

[sandi2]

Hope your anxiety has eased and we hear from you soon.