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K,

The good:
It’s a step in the right direction if she follows through with actions.

The bad:
I don’t like her using the word trying. Unless she is doing this because she wants to then you may be just delaying the outcome.

It’s going to take a lot of work and infinite patience.

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@kto626 -

Good luck. You have a kid, so I'm trying to not be as harsh, and rooting for you to succeed.

For reference, my WW / STBXW called me one night drunk crying and asking to R. She said she would quit her job, etc... since she works with OM. She called from OM's place, while she is living with OM, and was lying to me on the phone about it. She hid and lied about this fact for months thinking I'm stupid to know the facts. I didn't take the bait.

We also did the "trying" dance for 3 months, but everyday it was just me lies everyday until she finally moved out.

So believe actions, not words.

Last edited by LovingIt; 04/08/20 08:50 PM.
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So believe actions, not words.

So true!


Me: 34
Stbxw: 30
D:5 D:3
Mini bd: May/June 2019
Married: Aug 2019
BD: 6th Dec 2019
OM Confirmed: Feb 2020
March 2020: I filed for D
Waiting for D to be finalized and W to move out end of January 2021
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kto626 Offline OP
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LovingIt: I appreciate your support. My W was not drunk when she said this. But I do realize these are just words and not behaviors. So I have held my boundaries and have not contacted her since she told me she told the OM that's she going to focus on her family, herself, her work, and her D. She did she is going to draft a finality statement with her IC. I have no idea if that has happened and I'm not going to ask (right, I shouldn't ask???). Her behaviors are showing me she wants to focus on the family. But I know withdrawals are coming. She is not moving back into my house. I told her that. There is still too much work to be done. And right now, all she has done (supposedly) is tell him she's focusing on the family.

Am I doing the right thing by sitting back and waiting for her to tell me what is going on? I told her I need proof that NC has happened. I told her I will be looking through all of her social media accounts to make sure he is gone (I have friends and family who also have ways to see he is gone from social media).

I spoke to my IC and he said when we begin MC I can ask for more proof and set up expectations with her that allows me access to her phone/accounts. I know a lot of you say that happens first but I would prefer it done with the MC too. My hope is we start MC soon after she tells me contact is over.

So when she comes to me and says she's ended contact:
1. Prove it
2. Let me see your phone
3. Go to MC and set up expectations moving forward.
4. She continues IC (which she has now gone to a few weeks in a row).

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K,

This time is extremely important and as you have been following OS2’s thread you know that this could be a false start. You just need to hold your ground until you start seeing some actions from her. She has to drive the bus. I have a feeling by your post that this is going to be difficult and you are going to try to force it.

You really need to temper your expectations right now. In the early part of my situation my ex wanted to try again because she felt it was the right thing to do not because she wanted to. It just prolonged the inevitable.

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LH: I'm not going to force it. I told her what needs to happen so I'll just sit back and wait. I told her clearly NC. Nothing changes until then.

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Hi Kto626,

Just stopped by to say I'm rooting for you. You've been brave keeping (reasonable) terms front and center--if she wants to return, she needs to drop the OM, be transparent, and work on the relationship.

So many branch points--in another situation there was a pause between dropping OM/OW and being ready to work on the relationship, many where reconciliation was just "going through the motions", some where OM1 not being excited enough was simply followed by OM2, OM3, and OM4.

If she returns, a long road ahead. Keep that good head on your shoulders.

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Am I doing the right thing by sitting back and waiting for her to tell me what is going on? I told her I need proof that NC has happened. I told her I will be looking through all of her social media accounts to make sure he is gone (I have friends and family who also have ways to see he is gone from social media).


The thing to have done is tell her you need her to be transparent. You don't tell her you are going to be searching through social media, have family and friends on the lookout, etc. to see if OM is really gone. The burden of proof is on her. However, the transparency plan is your design. Make sense? She doesn't get to decide how much she reveals, or when or anything else. It's your plan.....your call. If she asks what kind of transparency you need, then you can tell her you need all her passwords to her accounts (email, SM, phone activity, etc.) . Now, remember, she is the cheater, not you. If she starts talking about it being an invasion of privacy, I want you to realize she's really talking about invasion of secrecy. Why should she need privacy from her H, unless she doesn't want him knowing something. The point of transparency is two fold, IMHO. She violated her wedding vows, and betrayed your trust......so you can't simply trust her at her word. We call it trust and verify, but that is basically following a transparency plan. Speaking as a former WW, transparency helped me stay on the straight & narrow road throughout my withdrawals. I knew my H was checking. I didn't know when......but I knew he was checking. If she is serious about committing to the MR, she should agree to it. She doesn't have to like it........just agree to do it.

The reason I stress she agrees to transparency, is b/c it gives you free reign to look at her messages whenever you decide. Maybe I'm playing on words, but if she agrees, then it's not snooping.........it's verifying. And should she blow up about something you have to confront her about, you can remind her about the agreement. You don't verify every day, nor do you ask her to let you see..........unless she has her phone glued to her hip, then that may present a problem. (We can discuss this part more later, if you want.)

If she tries to make this transparency a two-way thing, saying you'll need to be transparent, also..........don't get pulled into that trap. I've seen too many LBH's so eager to get their cheater W back, that they put themselves in the same category as the WW......and that's the wrong move. "Okay honey, if will make you feel better, I'll show you all of my text messages, too". Noooooo! You would be taking away the work she needs to do to recover from her wayward behavior. The LBH can't make it too easy for her to come back, b/c if she doesn't do the work, he'll face this crisis again. So, don't agree to do the same work (transparency) as required of the cheating spouse. Your work and her work won't be exactly the same across the board. Ending all contact with OM and being transparent, is part of her work Don't forget that you must see everything from the viewpoint of getting respect from her. She's not going to respect you by putting you in wayward category alongside of her. Don't argue about it, if she protests. Those are a couple of your terms to reconciliation. She can take it or leave it. She doesn't get to call the shots about reconciliation. She has the right to agree or disagree, but she doesn't have the right to call the terms. All this other stuff, such as living a healthier lifestyle, is secondary, IMHO. She will try to distract you away from the primary issue, by bringing up her complaints about you/MR. None of that other stuff needs to be discussed, until she agrees to stop all forms of contact with OM. The other issues within the MR can be discussed later, maybe in MC.

As for your WW getting her IC to help her draft a letter to OM? Never heard of it! The betrayed H should be the one to help his cheating W draft a letter to the male predator. Wouldn't you agree?

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I spoke to my IC and he said when we begin MC I can ask for more proof and set up expectations with her that allows me access to her phone/accounts. I know a lot of you say that happens first but I would prefer it done with the MC too. My hope is we start MC soon after she tells me contact is over.


How can you have it both ways? It seems to me that you are really seeing the IC for MC. It's rare for any counselor to align with the advice you receive here. Therapists don't even agree with each other, as well as in any other profession. So, I guess you'll have to decide. However, I just have to ask.......how are you going to reconcile if your boundary was NC with OM? Is your IC saying you are suppose to trust the word of a liar and cheater? Seriously? That's the problem. She can't be trusted to NC with OM, especially right after ending things with him, b/c withdrawals begin immediately. That's why a plan has to be in place.

Frankly, I think you don't know what to do and just want MC to fix things. That's understandable......but let me share a personal experience I had with a highly recommended therapist in this area. So, I go into her office and tell her some of my very wayward behavior (to put it nicely) over the Internet with other men (yes, you heard me right). Know how she responded? "Oh, that's okay. You've done NOTHING WRONG! Don't beat yourself up about it". Now, I was wayward, but I wasn't stupid.......I knew I was doing plenty that was wrong. I knew I had lied, betrayed, cheated, disrespected my H/M, conducted myself very inappropriately, etc. And, this highly recommended therapist was telling me it was okay and I had done nothing wrong? Maybe she was trying to win my trust, IDK, but she was talking to a gal who had been raised on "thou shalt and shalt not". So anyway, I started telling her more juicy details, b/c she was validating everything that came out of my mouth. I wondered at what point she would stop acting as if we were a pair of teenage girls giggling over my latest escapades behind my H's back.......and start being real with me. I didn't need someone encouraging my fantasies. I needed someone to talk straight to me, and that's what I was getting on the DB board......straight, harsh truth. I was wayward, and knew I was wayward. I had enough sense to realize this therapist wasn't for me, and I left and didn't go back. The board became my therapy, and I was here every night until I couldn't hold my eyes open. I would go to work the next morning, then come right back to the board in the evenings. I'm not saying that would work for everyone. I'm saying that just b/c your WW is seeing an IC or decides to attend MC, doesn't mean it's going to fix her. Hopefully, it will help with whatever issues were caused in her past, if nothing else. I hope both of you will be helped, I really do. I encourage couples to find a good therapist who specializes in couples healing from an affair. You just have to know their title doesn't guarantee your success. And, sometimes, you have to shop around to find the right therapist. Anyway, I didn't mean to get so long winded on that subject.

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So when she comes to me and says she's ended contact:
1. Prove it
2. Let me see your phone
3. Go to MC and set up expectations moving forward.
4. She continues IC (which she has now gone to a few weeks in a row).


No, don't say #1 & #2 like that, b/c it sounds as if she will have to show you proof only once. Don't use the words "prove it". Don't tell her to show you her phone, like it's one time. Tell her you need her to agree to your transparency plan. Give all passwords, etc. Yes to #3 & #4, as long as the IC & MC aren't conflicting.

I'm going to close this post and continue on another one. blush


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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CWarrior: Thank you for your kind words and support.

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If she returns, a long road ahead. Keep that good head on your shoulders.


Even if she ends contact, continues IC and MC, I have decided she will not be moving back in for a while. She is going to have to earn that. However, if she does the work we all agree on, then I will spend time with her. Hell, I want to spend time with her and you all know that. I just want to redraw my boundaries a bit. I won't pursue but I will be available to her (if that makes sense)?

But she still needs to go NC. Just because she is saying she will doesn't mean anything. I will say she is no longer blaming me or angry with me. Sandi mentioned that being a sign and I have to agree. My W has a totally different temperament, although, the only interaction has been about our D. But even that led to fighting before.

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Here I go again. smile But first, I wanted to ask how your grandmother is doing. This self-quarantine business has been hard on so many people. I feel so sorry for families who can't work from home and don't know how they will survive b/c their jobs have shut down.....or they have no place to stay. When we look at the people around the world who are suffering more than us......it helps put things in perspective. My grandmother use to say, "I was sad I didn't have any shoes, until I saw a man who didn't have any feet."


So, getting back to a previous post I wanted to address.

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Trying to give up OM.......? What does that mean? She used to text him XXXX times per day, but has cut back to XXX? That's not good enough. She has to go cold turkey. She can't taper off an addiction.


I realize that. And that is why when she came over to take the dog for a walk and asked if I wanted her to work over at my house to help with our D, I said no, you know where I stand on that. She knows I will not accept contact with the OM.


Okay, but you had just asked in a previous post at what point can she come over for a few hours "as a family". You can't have it both ways. She doesn't get to come over and play happy family for an hour or two......as long as she's still contacting OM. You seem to go back & forth on this.

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I just validated and said I can appreciate the fact that it is.



tired You men and your NGS! This is not the time to get soft. In her wayward mindset, that's how she'll see it.


What should I have said?


Okay, let's talk about validating a wayward W. As Wonka points out in her thread on validation, it is a "learned skill". To be very honest, I get frustrated with some LBH's who want to validate everything the WW says......but they don't want to stand up to her, or call her out when she's disrespecting him. I'm not saying you haven't stood up to your WW, I'm speaking in general terms. Naturally, most LBH's of WW's want to validate........b/c the majority of them have NGS, and it's the nice-guy thing to do! At least, that's how I believe he appears to his WW. (It's another one of the differences in how to approach a WAW and how to address the WW. In most cases I've read, the LBH of a WAW is usually not the nice-guy type we see in WW cases.)

It's hard to get most of the H's here to actually say how they validated. They say, "I just validated her". When it comes to WW's, I think the safest route in validating, is to make eye contact, and (at best) nod your head to indicate you are listening......not that you are agreeing, if that makes sense. Wonka has given many good examples to use, but obviously, people read it through different eyes.

I suppose most everyone wants to be heard and have their feelings validated. The problem lies in the WW's mindset toward her LBH. She doesn't respect him as her H, and she's not sexually attracted to him. In many cases, she feels they are like blood relatives......or roommates. She doesn't want to hurt him, but she finds the OM more exciting. You get my point.

Due to the wayward mindset she has developed, the LBH has to be very careful about the words he chooses to validate his WW. Like I remind you, she has to see him from a point of respect. So, if you sound as if you are being emphatic with her wayward feelings, conduct, or mindset.........she's going to zap you into the friend zone so fast it will make your head spin. That means she isn't interested in being intimate with you. Validation doesn't mean you agree with her........but let me give an example. Let's say she is having a pity party over how hard it is to give up OM, and you say you can appreciate how hard it is. It's not so much your response, as it is about how she receives it.

I think it was OS2's thread where this subject came up and his WW was amazed how "understanding he was" as she told him about her strong desire for another man. He was rather proud of how calmly he conducted himself, b/c he was focused on validating her. And, this focus on validating a WW seems to be where many H's stumble. OS2 didn't seem to understand that's why she tells him that they make better friends than spouses......and she's not interested in being intimate with him. In the meantime, she playing the distant & pursuit game with him, while keeps contact with OM. It's b/c she received his validation as if he was her BFF......which is not a typical response from a husband who is hearing his W talk about her strong desire for another guy. Am I making sense? As I told him, she was expecting him to react like a husband, not some friend. I'm just trying to prevent you from making the same mistake.

I'm sure there are some who don't agree with me, and would say I don't understand validation. I think it's the nice-guy LBH's who don't understand how and when they should/shouldn't validate a WW. Wonka talks about this in the validation thread.

I hope you won't feel like I'm knocking you down every time you stand up. I think you've done better than most newcomer LBH's with a WW after only a couple of months. This is a critical point in your M, and I am pulling for you two to make it. ((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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