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may22 #2895115 05/16/20 07:12 AM
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may, I'm so happy for you that things are going well. In retrospect you realized your patience was worth it, so maybe it does not hurt to wait it out just a little bit more for the A talk. I think wounds do heal with time, maybe not completely, but it does make it easier to go back and examine the scars....as long as you are not sweeping things under the rug and continue being self-aware of your feelings about A, I think you are right that both of you will be in a stronger place to discuss about it in the future.

Enjoy the remaining quarantine time with your family, it sounds like you guys are having a wonderful time!! we can all use some happy stories these days. wink


BD: Sep 2019
D in progress
may22 #2895166 05/17/20 07:08 AM
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I’m so glad everything seems to be ticking over nicely, May. You sound stronger with every post, and there seem to be lots of really positive changes. It’s really encouraging to hear that you feel closer than you have for a long time. That’s a really solid foundation to have and all your emotional and physical connections should flourish from that. Enjoy all the time together!! Like you, I’m kind of enjoying lockdown (not so much the separation part), but the less frenetic lifestyle, and more time with the children. I don’t think mine will be going back to school until September. What about yours?


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020
Recon #2: since Nov 2020
may22 #2895369 05/19/20 08:53 PM
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Thanks, WF, Pommy, Wooba... you guys are the best.

So, of course, I couldn't help myself and poked the bear. Actually after I wrote this last post about not needing to think or talk about the A, I basically couldn't stop thinking about it and why we weren't talking about it. It still doesn't feel as painful to think about-- every once in awhile I get that stomach-turning feeling and then back off, but it is like a small fraction of the times it comes up for me-- but it is like picking at a scab and I just can't help it. What is wrong with me?

I asked him one night if he thought we'd just never talk about it since we are unlikely to be able to see our MC together alone for the entire summer at this point, since our school is doing virtual summer camp. He said he had been thinking about it too and didn't know the answer, but repeated that he doesn't think it is a good idea for us to have these painful conversations when we're stuck on lockdown.

I let it go but then ruminated on that for a few days, picked a couple of fights, told him I felt like he wanted to sweep everything under the rug and wasn't taking any responsibility for his cheating and lying. I finally riled him up yesterday morning to the point where he brought up the SSM again (I had emotionally starved him for years) and while what he did was worse than what I did, at least he had a reason (the SSM) whereas I was flailing around looking for excuses for my behavior.

I'm at such a crossroads on this particular point. I feel like I've taken responsibility for my part of the SSM and spent a lot of time and energy trying to figure out why I did it so that it won't happen again. I've committed for MYSELF that it won't happen again, and FWIW it has been more than a year since I have been actively committed to exploring this. I don't understand how in his head the factors that led to a SSM for me (motherhood, etc) are "excuses" and evidence of me avoiding responsibility, while for him the SSM is a "reason" he did what he did. He very clearly can't see the parallels. And while he's still stuck in this place, does talking even help, at least on our own without an MC?

The other thing he said in the fight was that he was so confused about why I was still so angry, I "got what I wanted." I blew up and said if he thought I wanted this sad sack who won't take responsibility for anything, he was wrong. Then I stormed out.

I spent most of the day quiet and working in the basement. To give him credit, he did a number of things to try to repair all day long that i basically rebuffed until the very last one-- he came to give me a hug, he said he was sorry, he made me lunch, he wrote me a note, he took care of the kids and cleaned up the whole kitchen, he helped me work on a financial/business plan (which is when I finally relented, as even though I was being a total b**ch about it he kept being calm and nice and supportive).

Also, I totally know I was in the wrong in picking this fight with him. I don't know why I couldn't control myself and get back to that zen "it will happen when it happens" place.

He also spoke to his IC in the middle of the day yesterday, and after the kids went to bed he told me we can talk about the A. That he had been thinking about it and talked to his IC about it, and while he was worried that I'd get into a really bad place if we had these difficult conversations, we can't put them off forever, the quarantine wasn't going anywhere, and I was pretty upset anyway so it wasn't like avoiding it was helping. He wasn't sure why now I was suddenly upset again (I said it had been brewing in me this whole time and I was just letting him see it).

I asked him about the "you got what you want" comment and said it really bothered me, that it implied he didn't get what he wanted. He said he didn't mean to imply that, it was complicated for him, but his main feeling was that words are words and actions should mean more and he felt that I wasn't appreciating his actions, he's here, trying to be the best dad and husband he can be. (He also said he was trying to explain how I felt to his IC, who was like, "I don't understand... you're THERE." I swear, sometimes I really question his IC.)

I said I felt like words were important too, understanding intentionality, what we're working on or building towards. And that the infection from the A and the disgust I feel about the AP and that she's slimed everything she touched is still there, and needs to be cleaned out. (Another change-- when I had previously spoken in a way that was denigrating towards AP, back around when he ended the A and a little after, he would get upset with me, like don't do that. He didn't say anything, just let me say what I said.)

UGH, I know none of this is DBing. (And as I type this out, a lot of my past DB failings are becoming clear too. If he only knew how much I held in!) I don't really know what I should be doing at this point. I spent the day deciding I needed to re-detach, focus on me, etc. etc. Now that he's opened the door to talking about the A-- which is what I wanted-- I'm kind of dreading it. Does anyone have any advice for me?

I told him last night there are some things that I simply never want to hear about again, ever, like how he felt or feels about her. That is damaging to me and I don't want to hear it. He nodded (again a change, since before he absolutely refused to talk about the A without emphasizing how he felt about her, I think because he had some thing in his head about it wasn't so bad because it was love-- in fact he said to me at one point wasn't it better that he only cheated because he was so emotionally attached rather than just for the sake of it?)

I said there were things I wanted to talk about and thing he probably wanted to talk about, and also things maybe neither of us were ready to talk about, and that was OK. We don't even necessarily have to talk about the A, we can talk about other things that could help us build our R up now. He said OK, he liked that. I also said there were things that we would need to talk about that probably would be really difficult and hard to hear, like I still have never heard exactly what happened when he went to her city to break up with her. I said it would probably dredge up a lot of stuff for me, and only he knows how bad it is going to be since I don't know. But I need to know those things before I can start to heal and move on. He nodded.

In my head (and in all the books) you don't really start piecing until the WS is totally transparent, remorseful, willing to do whatever it takes to help the LBS heal. In my case, I just can't say that he is there, because we haven't been talking about it at all. I do see his actions being consistent with being there for me, being a good H and dad, trying to make me feel better through acts of service (my primary LL). I do believe him that he's committed to the M, given the things he's said to me and his actions have been totally consistent with that for the last 3 plus months since he broke it off. And it is true, as I said earlier, that things are way better between us and we are probably closer than we've ever been... except for dealing with the A, which is of course a giant, giant trust gap that maybe isn't fixable.

All along I knew it would take time for him to let her go in his head, grieve the end of the A, and be ready to both deal with the aftermath and work on M2.0 with me. I just don't know where his head is right now and I'm a little scared to open up that door in case he isn't as far along the path as I'd like him to be. (As I type that I get it that I have expectations that I need to let go of as we move into this process.)

Sorry for the long post. Would love any advice anyone has for me.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2895404 05/20/20 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by may22

So, of course, I couldn't help myself and poked the bear. Actually after I wrote this last post about not needing to think or talk about the A, I basically couldn't stop thinking about it and why we weren't talking about it. It still doesn't feel as painful to think about-- every once in awhile I get that stomach-turning feeling and then back off, but it is like a small fraction of the times it comes up for me-- but it is like picking at a scab and I just can't help it. What is wrong with me?

Nothing is wrong with you! I think it's human nature to analyze and you are probably tired of mentally filling in the blanks or having a ton of questions and can't move on until those puzzle pieces are in place.

Quote


I asked him one night if he thought we'd just never talk about it since we are unlikely to be able to see our MC together alone for the entire summer at this point, since our school is doing virtual summer camp. He said he had been thinking about it too and didn't know the answer, but repeated that he doesn't think it is a good idea for us to have these painful conversations when we're stuck on lockdown.

I let it go but then ruminated on that for a few days, picked a couple of fights, told him I felt like he wanted to sweep everything under the rug and wasn't taking any responsibility for his cheating and lying. I finally riled him up yesterday morning to the point where he brought up the SSM again (I had emotionally starved him for years) and while what he did was worse than what I did, at least he had a reason (the SSM) whereas I was flailing around looking for excuses for my behavior.

I'm at such a crossroads on this particular point. I feel like I've taken responsibility for my part of the SSM and spent a lot of time and energy trying to figure out why I did it so that it won't happen again. I've committed for MYSELF that it won't happen again, and FWIW it has been more than a year since I have been actively committed to exploring this. I don't understand how in his head the factors that led to a SSM for me (motherhood, etc) are "excuses" and evidence of me avoiding responsibility, while for him the SSM is a "reason" he did what he did. He very clearly can't see the parallels. And while he's still stuck in this place, does talking even help, at least on our own without an MC?


Did he say what specifically he had been thinking about other than that it isn't good to talk about in lockdown? Did he say why not talking about it in lockdown was not good? Maybe if you offer to schedule a time for it so it has a concrete beginning and end, or have a list of questions and ask him to answer them when he feels like it, one at a time?

Quote


The other thing he said in the fight was that he was so confused about why I was still so angry, I "got what I wanted." I blew up and said if he thought I wanted this sad sack who won't take responsibility for anything, he was wrong. Then I stormed out.

I spent most of the day quiet and working in the basement. To give him credit, he did a number of things to try to repair all day long that i basically rebuffed until the very last one-- he came to give me a hug, he said he was sorry, he made me lunch, he wrote me a note, he took care of the kids and cleaned up the whole kitchen, he helped me work on a financial/business plan (which is when I finally relented, as even though I was being a total b**ch about it he kept being calm and nice and supportive).

Also, I totally know I was in the wrong in picking this fight with him. I don't know why I couldn't control myself and get back to that zen "it will happen when it happens" place.


It is strange that he has this blind spot about how you got 'what you wanted' but isn't seeing that you received a puzzle that has missing pieces, and how technically yeah you wanted the puzzle, but can't solve without the missing parts.
Quote


He also spoke to his IC in the middle of the day yesterday, and after the kids went to bed he told me we can talk about the A. That he had been thinking about it and talked to his IC about it, and while he was worried that I'd get into a really bad place if we had these difficult conversations, we can't put them off forever, the quarantine wasn't going anywhere, and I was pretty upset anyway so it wasn't like avoiding it was helping. He wasn't sure why now I was suddenly upset again (I said it had been brewing in me this whole time and I was just letting him see it).

I asked him about the "you got what you want" comment and said it really bothered me, that it implied he didn't get what he wanted. He said he didn't mean to imply that, it was complicated for him, but his main feeling was that words are words and actions should mean more and he felt that I wasn't appreciating his actions, he's here, trying to be the best dad and husband he can be. (He also said he was trying to explain how I felt to his IC, who was like, "I don't understand... you're THERE." I swear, sometimes I really question his IC.)

I said I felt like words were important too, understanding intentionality, what we're working on or building towards. And that the infection from the A and the disgust I feel about the AP and that she's slimed everything she touched is still there, and needs to be cleaned out. (Another change-- when I had previously spoken in a way that was denigrating towards AP, back around when he ended the A and a little after, he would get upset with me, like don't do that. He didn't say anything, just let me say what I said.)


I think it helps support his actions if he is saying them out loud to you. Do you think this is a love languages difference, or that he is actively avoiding talking about it for a variety of reasons? (guilt, shame, etc)
Quote


UGH, I know none of this is DBing. (And as I type this out, a lot of my past DB failings are becoming clear too. If he only knew how much I held in!) I don't really know what I should be doing at this point. I spent the day deciding I needed to re-detach, focus on me, etc. etc. Now that he's opened the door to talking about the A-- which is what I wanted-- I'm kind of dreading it. Does anyone have any advice for me?

I told him last night there are some things that I simply never want to hear about again, ever, like how he felt or feels about her. That is damaging to me and I don't want to hear it. He nodded (again a change, since before he absolutely refused to talk about the A without emphasizing how he felt about her, I think because he had some thing in his head about it wasn't so bad because it was love-- in fact he said to me at one point wasn't it better that he only cheated because he was so emotionally attached rather than just for the sake of it?)

I said there were things I wanted to talk about and thing he probably wanted to talk about, and also things maybe neither of us were ready to talk about, and that was OK. We don't even necessarily have to talk about the A, we can talk about other things that could help us build our R up now. He said OK, he liked that. I also said there were things that we would need to talk about that probably would be really difficult and hard to hear, like I still have never heard exactly what happened when he went to her city to break up with her. I said it would probably dredge up a lot of stuff for me, and only he knows how bad it is going to be since I don't know. But I need to know those things before I can start to heal and move on. He nodded.

In my head (and in all the books) you don't really start piecing until the WS is totally transparent, remorseful, willing to do whatever it takes to help the LBS heal. In my case, I just can't say that he is there, because we haven't been talking about it at all. I do see his actions being consistent with being there for me, being a good H and dad, trying to make me feel better through acts of service (my primary LL). I do believe him that he's committed to the M, given the things he's said to me and his actions have been totally consistent with that for the last 3 plus months since he broke it off. And it is true, as I said earlier, that things are way better between us and we are probably closer than we've ever been... except for dealing with the A, which is of course a giant, giant trust gap that maybe isn't fixable.

All along I knew it would take time for him to let her go in his head, grieve the end of the A, and be ready to both deal with the aftermath and work on M2.0 with me. I just don't know where his head is right now and I'm a little scared to open up that door in case he isn't as far along the path as I'd like him to be. (As I type that I get it that I have expectations that I need to let go of as we move into this process.)

Sorry for the long post. Would love any advice anyone has for me.


I know you've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and now the opportunity is there, and it is daunting. I took time to really think about each question that I asked, and if it was helpful for me to know, and not just hurtful. I have asked questions for months, and some of them are totally random. Reading books together has helped. Maybe if you make a list? And be honest that you are scared. I think you are dead on re: don't have expectations, and who knows, maybe he will surprise you? Or you will have more direction once you know where he is at. I know I can be thrown off if my H is quiet or I think he is avoiding a topic, and fill in the blanks with all kinds of creative (and INACCURATE) things. And I guess, what good is knowing some of the things you want to ask? Or maybe explain why? H and I sometimes scheduled times to talk, or we would gchat during the day so we can both thoughtfully think out answers (and then I can refer to them later in text if I am forgetting details). I have more to say and will be back tomorrow.

may22 #2895429 05/20/20 02:15 PM
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I have a few things I'd like to say in regards to hashing this out sans MC. Just food for thought really. I think before you do a deep dive with H on the A and your feelings, and the things you "need" to know, you should probably hash out with your IC what it is that you really NEED to know vs think you want to know. This is coming from a place of being a WW once upon a time. Once you know things you can't unknow them. Once it's out there there is no going back. You really need to be sure you are getting exactly what you need, and that you are prepared to hear things you don't want to with zero buffer and zero mediation. Next I'd suggest carving out time to talk about the A and the MR and that's it. You get a 2 hour block on Wednesday night and you aren't talking about it again until next Wednesday. The one thing about working this stuff out though MC is that there is a designated time and place to feel like absolute crap. And then you leave the office. And maybe there's some carry over on the drive home, but then you're home with the kids and it's time to pretend everything is fine while you both process in your heads alone. You'll need to create that same dynamic or you two will be miserable. I'd also suggest maybe looking at Esther Perel's questions to ask after an affair. There's a list of like 100 questions. Most are for the LBS, but there are a chunk for the WS. It might be good for both of you to review those and see what it is that both of you NEED to know to move forward. I think the idea of sprinkling in way to repair and move forward in the MR excluding the A stuff is going to be a good balance to this.

Next on the 100% remorseful. You are a good person. My exH was human hot garbage. So I can't really compare my time as WW to this. However, now as an LBS I hope my H isn't 100% remorseful. He needed to know how things would work out of he took a chance on OW. He got his answer. Now there isn't any more linger questions on her. If he hadn't brought a train wreck into the middle of our lives I don't know how much longer I would've just kept chugging along on my slow train to recovery from my depression. Years? And then it would've been me destroying our MR and him and myself slowly. Regardless of how this turns out for us, and regardless of there being better ways to get us here, we learned things about our selves, and about each other through this. Honestly at one point I told him I was kinda of glad this happened. It forced me to reevaluate everything in my life. It forced me to find me again. There are lessons to be learned here. You can't be remorseful for learning something about yourself. Just make sure you keep you expectations to something reasonable here. He needs to be remorseful for putting you and the kids, and anyone in your periphery effected by his crappy choices. But he doesn't need to be remorseful that he did it in it's entirety. You can't control his take away from all this any more than he can control how you feel when he say's you got what you wanted.

I know you have a game plan. I'm sure one you've been thinking about for weeks. I just want you to remember that you aren't the only one healing, or hurting. H is a jerkface for what he did,...lol, but now it isn't you two against each other any more. It's you two against the problem, try to keep that in mind going forward.

may22 #2895507 05/21/20 02:21 AM
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Hi May,

My brain has very little capacity, so here's what I've got.

You have been at this for 3 months. Take a step back and remind yourself of that often.

I read a lot of threads on this forum in my early days, and the reconciled threads it took so much longer than this. I know you want to do active work. But maybe your H's work needs to be a little more silent right now. Remember, HE needs to do some work too, he can't just jump into working with you on this.

I'm not saying to let him off the hook, or ignore things. Just keep your perspective that 1) it has been 3 months. That's so incredibly short 2) Look at what he has done in 3 months to turn himself around and walk the walk. As an outsider, I am impressed 3) I think he is working on it. Trust him to work a little bit in his own way.

I know your SSM and his A are not equal and they are not the same thing. But, each of you had your own motivations that you were not conscious of. Both of you had some deep down stuff you likely didn't realize was happening. But the result was the same in that you both hurt each other. In his own way, I think your H is going to want an apology as well, along with talking about it a bit more.

I don't think now is the time for either. Little bits here and there on both sides seems to be a good route?

I'm wondering - if you were to think back to your early days with your H, how long until you fell in love with him? Like REALLY fell in love with him because you knew him inside-out and all his many gifts and flaws? I'm guessing it was longer than 3 months. So be okay with the timeline.

I'm sorry it's so hard.

may22 #2895625 05/22/20 09:22 AM
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SamCal, WF, Yail... thanks for checking in.

It's funny... I actually relaxed and feel way better about all of it, now that he's just told me he's open to talking about it. I don't actually feel the pressure to dive in the same way I did, just knowing that it is possible. It does feel like a major shift, somehow.

Originally Posted by SamCal
Did he say what specifically he had been thinking about other than that it isn't good to talk about in lockdown? Did he say why not talking about it in lockdown was not good?

He’s been saying he thinks it is too stressful for both of us. The conversations we had before we so difficult and I definitely spun out for a few days after the BDs, not sleeping, barely speaking to him, etc. (Also, I had a some pretty spectacular DB fails right in the middle of everything that I know he’s referring to as well.) I think we both think the lockdown has been going surprisingly well and he’s afraid to throw a wrench into it, because on the flip side it could be so, so bad if we were really upset with one another and stuck at home with the kids 24/7. We definitely know how to push each other’s buttons if we want.

Originally Posted by SamCal
I think it helps support his actions if he is saying them out loud to you. Do you think this is a love languages difference, or that he is actively avoiding talking about it for a variety of reasons? (guilt, shame, etc)

I think he hasn’t felt ready. He’s been pretty stuck in the why he did it (his pat story for himself of me not wanting to have sex with him => me not loving him => he was hurting/vulnerable => met someone who thought he was amazing=>whoops! found himself in an affair) and I still think not ready to face what he did. it is so out of alignment with how he pictures himself, which was a part of his stress and unhappiness through the whole A.

In the final limbo time when his parents visited right after BD#3, he told his mom what was going on, and she ended up telling him she was very ashamed of him. That really, really struck him hard. I was flabbergasted he was surprised she’d think that but I think it shows just how far along in the fantasy he was— he thought his mom would be disappointed but would understand. The fact that she was not happy for him was shocking to him. I think he’s still coming back from that deep, deep fantastical denial and hasn’t really confronted it. Or, if he has, I don’t know about it since we haven’t talked about it.

Originally Posted by SamCal
And I guess, what good is knowing some of the things you want to ask? Or maybe explain why?

I’ve been thinking I might write out a few things I want to say, like the questions I want to ask, the boundaries I have about what I do not want to hear, and sharing those with them written so he can think them over. I feel I’ve dialed it back to what i really need to know and no more. No feelings. Just some of the bare-bones facts so I can re-calibrate the last two years of my life.


Originally Posted by Wayfarer
I have a few things I'd like to say in regards to hashing this out sans MC. Just food for thought really. I think before you do a deep dive with H on the A and your feelings, and the things you "need" to know, you should probably hash out with your IC what it is that you really NEED to know vs think you want to know. This is coming from a place of being a WW once upon a time. Once you know things you can't unknow them. Once it's out there there is no going back. You really need to be sure you are getting exactly what you need, and that you are prepared to hear things you don't want to with zero buffer and zero mediation.

I did go over the questions I want to ask in a private session with the MC, and he generally seemed to think they were fine. The big thing he was advocating against was any sexual detail, which I’ve read as well. He agreed with me that I don’t need to hear any more about the “love” part. I’m actually not sure H can do this— we’ve talked about it before together and I talked about it with the MC, this weird need H has had to not share any factual details without really twisting the knife on the feelings. H said it was because the facts were only relevant because of the feelings. I was like OK, I get it, I never need to hear it again. But of course, it’s been a couple of months now since we’ve talked about any of this.

I do know that when I finally let him just blab it all out about how deeply he felt for AP, listened, stopped telling him it was a fantasy, that I believed him, but it still didn’t change my stance— I wouldn’t work on our R with a third party in the mix and I wouldn’t be friends with him if we split—that he finally started to turn the corner and made the decision to stay and break off the A. I don’t know how much my actually listening and believing/validating him on this had to do with his decision, but the timing was correlated.

Originally Posted by Wayfarer
Next I'd suggest carving out time to talk about the A and the MR and that's it. You get a 2 hour block on Wednesday night and you aren't talking about it again until next Wednesday. The one thing about working this stuff out though MC is that there is a designated time and place to feel like absolute crap. And then you leave the office. And maybe there's some carry over on the drive home, but then you're home with the kids and it's time to pretend everything is fine while you both process in your heads alone. You'll need to create that same dynamic or you two will be miserable. I'd also suggest maybe looking at Esther Perel's questions to ask after an affair. There's a list of like 100 questions. Most are for the LBS, but there are a chunk for the WS. It might be good for both of you to review those and see what it is that both of you NEED to know to move forward. I think the idea of sprinkling in way to repair and move forward in the MR excluding the A stuff is going to be a good balance to this.

All true, and good ideas. I need to dig back into my affair healing literature. I kind of left it all when we went into quarantine.

Originally Posted by Wayfarer
Next on the 100% remorseful. You are a good person. My exH was human hot garbage. So I can't really compare my time as WW to this. However, now as an LBS I hope my H isn't 100% remorseful….There are lessons to be learned here. You can't be remorseful for learning something about yourself. Just make sure you keep you expectations to something reasonable here. He needs to be remorseful for putting you and the kids, and anyone in your periphery effected by his crappy choices. But he doesn't need to be remorseful that he did it in it's entirety. You can't control his take away from all this any more than he can control how you feel when he say's you got what you wanted.

I know you’re right on this. And your H got a big fat X from his AP while mine might always wonder what might have been if he’d gone in that direction, but I know I can’t control that either. I definitely went into this whole thing with the Esther Perel attitude on M2.0, that even though this all $ucked thank god it happened because things are so much better on the other side. And deep down I do really believe that. I don’t know that I ever would have gotten the wake-up call about the SSM if I hadn’t gotten BD1, and I know definitively I am a more fulfilled person because I have left that asexual mom persona behind. I do more for myself now, I am happier and more fulfilled on my own. I lost the guilt I used to feel when I spent time or money just on me. Those have nothing to do with my H but are all major benefits of DBing and probably would not have happened without the A. And I see a lot of positivity in our R already that would probably not have happened without the giant shake-up of the A.

Maybe it is partially reading over and over here that your WS isn’t ready to piece until they’re totally transparent and remorseful. I see it again and again, and worry/wonder that my H is not fitting that mold. Three months ago when we talked about it last, H was still like I can’t be sorry for something that was life-giving for me. Intellectually, I get all that and feel it is something we can move past. Emotionally, there is a part of me that wants him begging for forgiveness and sobbing that he made the biggest mistake of his life, etc. I guess I just have to get beyond that. It is the same side of me that wants to call AP on the phone and tell her karma’s an f-ing b**ch and I hope ten years from now a 30 year old slut comes along and Fs her husband. But of course I won’t really do that, and I don’t really need my H to beg for forgiveness. (He won’t. That isn’t him.) But it is a nice fantasy.

Originally Posted by Wayfarer
I just want you to remember that you aren't the only one healing, or hurting. H is a jerkface for what he did,...lol, but now it isn't you two against each other any more. It's you two against the problem, try to keep that in mind going forward.

You’re right. I hope we can keep that feeling going when we have these conversations. It is actually the most important thing in all of this to me— to feel like we’re partners in this together even if we’re slogging through some pretty difficult garbage. That is my biggest fear with opening these conversations— that we’ll lose that feeling we’ve been cultivating of partnership and it will dissolve back into the anger/hurt of the aftermath of the A.

Originally Posted by Yail
You have been at this for 3 months. Take a step back and remind yourself of that often.

I read a lot of threads on this forum in my early days, and the reconciled threads it took so much longer than this. I know you want to do active work. But maybe your H's work needs to be a little more silent right now. Remember, HE needs to do some work too, he can't just jump into working with you on this.

I know. Patience has never been my strong suit and then I’m in this situation that has required more patience than I ever thought was remotely possible for me. I guess I just would like to see him understanding that maybe my work needs to have some conversation, even if his doesn’t, and that he has some responsibility in helping me in my work rather than just me flexing around his needs. Which is part of the reason I think I feel better and haven’t initiated any conversations since he said we could… just knowing he is open to it, understanding it is something I need, even if it is difficult for him is helpful and maybe all I need right at this very moment.

Originally Posted by Yail
I'm not saying to let him off the hook, or ignore things. Just keep your perspective that 1) it has been 3 months. That's so incredibly short 2) Look at what he has done in 3 months to turn himself around and walk the walk. As an outsider, I am impressed 3) I think he is working on it. Trust him to work a little bit in his own way.

LOL and here I am feeling like, three months! It’s been so long! (Then I look at a piecing thread and think this is something we’ll need to continue to work on for our whole lives. And get angry all over again that he did this.) It is weird to start to go through the year now remembering what was happening at this same time last year, or the year before. I agree he’s come a long way/ we have come a long way in the last three months. I just need to breathe, focus on what I can control, and be grateful for what has happened so far.

Originally Posted by Yail
I know your SSM and his A are not equal and they are not the same thing. But, each of you had your own motivations that you were not conscious of. Both of you had some deep down stuff you likely didn't realize was happening. But the result was the same in that you both hurt each other. In his own way, I think your H is going to want an apology as well, along with talking about it a bit more.

Yes, he wants an apology. He has gotten one several times, but I don’t think he is ready to really hear it yet. I can’t tell if he is still really hurting over it or if he is clinging onto it as the excuse for his A. (I find it hard to believe it is still currently painful since we’ve been sleeping together fairly regularly now since January, and I have been explicit in my desire for him for 15 months.)

Here’s where I am on the SSM— I am truly sorry for how it hurt him. I have spent now 15 months digging into why and how and how to move past it in my own mind. I also truly forgave him for the resentments I’d been holding onto for years as my own excuses for the SSM— like truly let those feelings go, to the extent that I can’t even really explain how I felt back then very well. And I’m 100% committed for MYSELF to never be that person again, and doing everything I can to make sure it never happens again.

I’m willing to dig in and talk about it as long as he wants, any and all aspects— why I think it happened, how things are different now, how I feel, how he can help… whatever. I am sorry for the past but I can’t change it. But I will do whatever it takes to help him get over it and build M2.0 with sex as a healthy part of our R. However, at some point I do need him to understand it is OVER. it is in the past and he needs to let it go as the excuse for his A and start to talk about the A and what led to it without always being in the shadow of the SSM (which to date has not been possible). And what I’d like from him on the A is basically what I’m trying to give him on the SSM— why it happened, what is different now, how we will both work to make sure it never happens again.

In the past, pretty much every time we talked about the SSM he feels like the factors that led to it for me are “excuses” and it makes him angry. There is also some undercurrent of “oh now you want to have sex” and a frustration that if I had only understood some of that earlier, none of this would have happened. But that still is H not taking responsibility for his own actions, like it is some inevitable giant waterslide that goes from SSM to A, so sorry, not my fault.

I definitely get and see his actions in the day-to-day are everything I would want to see. He is committed. He is here. He is working at our R. He has made tons of small and big changes (I know I have too) and as a result we are getting along very well. If I didn’t know he had had an A, I would be so happy right now— he’s been the perfect H. maybe a part of me doesn’t want to get too comfortable here without doing SOME of the hard work… but Yail, you’re right, there is also work that doesn’t require talking, just requires time and healing and compassion for ourselves and each other, and I can’t discount the importance of that work as well.

Thanks guys. This was really helpful. xx


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
may22 #2895631 05/22/20 12:51 PM
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I think you've had some really great suggestions here, May.

I am not sure if you want to talk about the A because you are fearful there are more details you don't yet know about, and knowing those details, while painful, might take away that fear.

Or if it is because the details of the affair are less important than hearing your H tell you that he takes responsibility, that it was wrong, that he regrets it, feels remorse, and that your actions around the SSM are not an adequate excuse for it in his mind.

Is it both?

My H and I do not talk about his EA any more. It was a more minor matter than the behaviour of your H, so perhaps not directly comparable, but I did want all the details in one go, and he did answer my questions at the time. When more came out in the months afterwards, I felt very betrayed and it look me a long time to understand that actually, he hadn't told me this one or two particular details not to hide things from me, but because it was genuinely irrelevant to him. It wasn't irrelevant to me and he was able to validate that feeling. I have been able to accept that I will never KNOW every single little thing, and that the important thing is that it is not happening now, and he had been faithful to me since it ended. He is very transparent now.

I wish he could say 'that was totally wrong and I regret it, and you didn't deserve it no matter how our marriage was at the time.' He has said some version of that, but he will also talk about his own position - that he felt burdened and lonely and unappreciated and controlled. I have chosen to hear this as him wanting me to know where he was at the time - wanting me to understand his heart - rather than him wanting to make excuses or put some of the blame for his actions on me and my part in our struggling marriage. I have also told him I take full responsibility for my part in the marriage and for how awful it was for both of us, but I don't take any responsibility at all for his behaviour, his infidelity and verbal abuse, and that he is always responsible for his own actions. He still struggles with this and is apt, if he gets grumpy and rude, to say that he'd have been gentler or kinder if only x hadn't done y. I've told him I find that kind of talk immature and unattractive and whether he believes or accepts it or not, he is still responsible for himself. It's an aspect of his character I find difficult. But I leave it with him. I don't poke at it. I just put responsibility back on him when he tries to hand it to me.

It is not perfect and I suspect my H has been willing to be more transparent verbally and give a clearer account of himself verbally than yours has. I also think H's in this position will have to - over a number of very many years - take gradual responsibility for who they are. All you need to do is keep to your boundaries. They may not want to pick up their own mess, but it doesn't mean it falls on you.

may22 #2895634 05/22/20 01:33 PM
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I also have another question that just hit me.

I understand why you want to ask your H questions about his affair. I can also understand why he might not want to, or be fearful about it.

But putting that to one side for a second, for the survival of your marriage, it is probably more important that he starts to ask himself questions about why he had the affair. And given that he still blames you for it, it sounds like he really really doesn't want to do that.

I wonder if your H is using up his energy thinking about your questions, and delaying them, as a way of keeping the focus on you and what you want. Do you think this dynamic protects him from the more important and necessary work of looking hard at himself? He can have this silent dispute with you, and string it out as long as he wants, and that's where the focus is - May wants to know and I don't want to tell her or I want to be in control of when I tell her - rather than 'I wonder why I did this terrible thing to a woman I am now claiming to want to commit to again? What is it about me that made me choose to respond to the pain in our marriage in that way? How can I make sure I don't respond in that way again?'

I am just trying to imagine what is keeping him so motivated in refusing you something entirely normal.

may22 #2895667 05/22/20 06:06 PM
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You have such great comments here that are really useful to me as well.

I don't know if this helps, but something my coach said to me has come up in my thoughts a lot. She said our ego is like a thermostat. It is set at a certain "temperature." Think about your thermostat in your house: when it gets too cold, it warms up to bring it down. When it gets too warm, it kicks in to bring it up.

Likewise, we are used to being at a certain level. When we venture out of our comfort zone, our ego wigs out a bit and wants to bring us to normal, even if normal is not healthy or productive. As a personal example relating to your situation, as crazy as it sounds, when we would do better, my subconscious would actually begin to operate out of fear, even though doing better was supposed to be what I wanted! It was still out of my comfort zone. I was scared to to trust enough that things could be better because I was so afraid I would be hurt again if i allowed that. So i would pick a fight, or bring up the A. I had to work to be okay with being uncomfortable, and to create a new comfort zone. Sometimes I think this is why DBing can be so hard...it goes against our instincts and normal behavior we have a habit of doing.

What seems to help me the most, is that when I feel that discomfort, that panic, that trigger, I go off by myself, usually in the bathroom or my room, or for a drive alone if possible. If we are out, I excuse myself to the bathroom. I sit with the feeling for a bit. I ask myself what is going on? What is my need here? Do I really need something from him or am I just frightened? Can I soothe myself? With a lot of work, nine times out of ten I can soothe myself. I can remind myself of my goals and that I will be okay no matter what. Sometimes i call my sister and have her remind me I will be okay. I have noticed my comfort temperature zone has changed about two degrees. It's not where I want it yet, but it's moving.

When there is a huge fallout like what you experience, I am better at pinpointing what happened. The huge plus I see in your story is that your H is interested in repair. That is a really positive thing!

I often wish we were able to have a text group so when we get that 911 feeling we have someone who can talk us through it and help us learn to practice soothing ourselves. I realize now I have been so reliant on him and our progress to make me feel better. I've got to learn how to feel better on my own. I don't know if any of this made sense at all!


me: 46 h: 49
m: 24 T: 27
DD1:20 DD2:17 DS:12
BD1: PA for 2 yrs 08/2016
BD2: OW is one of my closest friends 12/2016
BD3: H wants a D 11/2019
Now: He is in the same house, but has filed for divorce.
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