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I have a lot to say. But I won’t say most of it.

But the point is, you can’t let her make decisions about your life without you. I find it completely disrespectful she didn’t ask you if it was OK to give notice on her apartment on April 1st. Especially when you expressed here that it was agreed upon sometime after the school year.

Like you said, she is a woman who is aggressive towards getting what she wants. And to be inconsiderate of others while she barrels towards it isn’t right.

You need to speak up Andrew. This is where it could be very detrimental to you and your son and all you have if you decide to be passive. You cannot let her drive the ship alone . You need to be ok with making decisions and being firm with them.

And I will say this, and it’s good for thought. When we date someone, we hear only their side of their story where things went wrong. Usually, the person we are with paints the picture of the victim, but if you speak to the other, you will find something very different.

Protect yourself and your home and your family. You need to stand up. It looks like you might be seeing where you do need to stand up for yourself. And how you do so will show a lot about what her true intentions are.

Take care, Andrew

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I will say that S asked multiple times if I was ok with her giving notice on April 1st, often within the context of "are you sure you want to get married". And I said yes even though I thought it an aggressive / optimistic timeline especially given my own need to have S25 safely launched first. So it's all on me.

I think fundamentally that this last thing goes around to, like many things in any relationship to a communication failure / managing expectations. She I am confident thought that spending as much time here as possible and making this her home base was what I was wanting in the short term and that matched her wishes. A certain amount of guess-work there I suppose.

On my part, I had presumed we'd be still going on dates, and just have the occasional overnight leading up to the official move-in.

I did get a lengthy message from her later in the day. I expect that she had to work her way up to what she wanted to day. She did tell me that she was disappointed and sad and that she will have a hard time explaining the delay to S13.

The old me would have apologized even more, back-tracked and tried to "make it all better". Instead I thanked her for her patience with me.

She also seems to have lost her engagement band. She'd thought it was here but I looked all over - even moving things - and couldn't find it. I'm pretty confident she had it on when she left and she said that she missed it when going to take it off before bed. I have seen it at her apartment sitting in various and odd places so hopefully it will turn up soon.

Day 13. Another day of being tough to get out of bed. I opened the curtains and lay there for quite a while listening to the latest episode of "Our Plague Year" while the rain fell gently outside. This is done by the same person who did one of my more favourite podcasts "Welcome To Nightvale". He started this project after abruptly canceling their current live tour. Some might disagree with my choice but despite it being a set of sad stories as the various commentators talked through their feelings and their fears, I found myself feeling better at the end. I think that sometimes, trying to feel "bucked up" when you are actually feeling a few letters farther down the alphabet doesn't help. It certainly doesn't help with me. Having a good wallow and then knowing that you can move on through the muck is how I've been able to deal with things.

My plans for today are fairly muted. Shortly I think I'm going to have a soak in the tub and read the book I bought from that same author as the podcast. His writing is just amazing. I bought the book earlier than I might have, his work is sometimes at the local library too, but each bit that I can do to help people who are hurting in this time is a good thing. I perhaps should have consulted with S on this but I also made a donation to MSF / Doctors Without Borders. I'm sure they can use a few bucks and I can certainly afford it given that my car has been largely just sitting in the garage. S and I have talked about both working together on budgets and financial planning starting in April.

I'd asked S yesterday if she wanted me to come by the apartment today for an hour or so and help out with things. She never responded but may have missed the offer. I'm not going to push it. She is a slow starter especially on weekends so might respond later. Even though I would only be in contact with her, the whole #stayhome thing is pretty important and I wouldn't be showing a good example to the community by driving around.

I have almost all the framing completed for the rabbit hutch and will probably finish that today. Next would be installing the top and both floors. I should have it all done in the next week or so I hope. It's been a fun project and has served as a reminder on how much I enjoy puttering down in the shop despite the bashing my head gets from the very low ceiling.

I have a ham in for dinner tonight. Not sure what I'll do for the starch / carb portion. I may give rice another try as S guided me to my first successful making of that the other day. No wine but I do have sparking juice from Ikea which S25 also likes. Before S moves in full time I need to be 99% alcohol free. I can still have a beer with friends after work but going through a 12 pack on the weekends will be ending. Tough to break habits of more than 30 years. I've been able to substitute ginger ale which gives me a similar kick without the buzz but that's a lot of sugar. I need to experiment around and find something that is both refreshing, easy to just have in the fridge and good for me.

Enough for now. Hope everyone has a nice peaceful and quiet day and isn't going too stir crazy. What times we live in indeed. We do still all have so very much to be grateful for. Friends chiefly among that list.


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Andrew,

Maybe it's time to step back and bit and give her some space. It's also time for you to have a bit of space to regroup and think about how you think things should be looking while moving forward. When the two of you get together again, at least you can have something down on paper or in your head as to how you think the relationship should be moving forward and she should do the same. It should not all fall on one person.

I do think she was moving a bit too fast and building up the expectations of her son that is 13th. It's up to her to explain to him that moving in with Andrew isn't going to happen until summer and not before then. His comments, even though he is young, made me think that S may have filled his head w/hopes and dreams that he would take over your S25's bedroom after he moved out. I wonder how she would have felt if you had spoken to her about her son the way she did yours. I don't think she would have liked it one bit.

For now, leave her be and let her stew a bit. She's the one that was going to leave, packed her stuff up and wasn't going to talk to you about it. Give her the space she needs to settle herself down. When she realizes that you aren't going to apologize or bend over backwards and change your mind about things, she just might respect you a bit more than she has and come to realize that Andrew does have a very stiff/strong backbone and knows how to say no.

If she has truly lost her engagement band, do not offer to purchase another one. She should have been more responsible and put it in a safe place for safe keeping. I can't help but wonder if she tossed that out there to make you feel guilty because she packed her stuff up and went back to her apartment. Whatever the reason, you've looked and now the onus is her to find it or live w/o it.

Andrew, learn to DB her. You can do this. Stay strong, stay positive and above all else...stay true to yourself and do not allow her or anyone to manipulate you into doing something you aren't ready to do.

Last edited by job; 03/29/20 07:04 PM. Reason: edited a word

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Originally Posted by job
If she has truly lost her engagement band, do not offer to purchase another one. She should have been more responsible and put it in a safe place for safe keeping. I can't help but wonder if she tossed that out there to make you feel guilty because she packed her stuff up and went back to her apartment. Whatever the reason, you've looked and now the onus is her to find it or live w/o it.

Andrew, learn to DB her. You can do this. Stay strong, stay positive and above all else...stay true to yourself and do not allow her or anyone to manipulate you into doing something you aren't ready to do.


Sadly, the “lost” engagement ring scenario that job mentioned also popped into my head. It seems odd that she suddenly lost it when she was unable to run rough-shod over you and was just going to pack all her stuff and leave in a huff. Andrew, my dear, if these are not HUGE red flags, I don’t know what else would be. She is clearly trying to manipulate you and the entire situation and doesn’t even seem to be working too hard to hide it or deny it.

Please really think about the DB principles and try to employ them here. She is making some very serious power moves here to get her way and you are just making excuses for her. You say it was mostly on you that she wants to give notice on her apartment on April 1.....it seems, at least from an outside perspective with very little insight into her side of things, that she’s been pushing this agenda and to avoid conflict, you’ve adopted a go along to get along attitude without really voicing what YOU want.

As far as her comments about your son, you know I’ve been one of the most vocal about moving him along because he is a grown man and needs to act and live like one. That is easy for me to say from the outside looking in. But, you are the one who keeps saying you will be hands off in dealing with her kids and yet she is ballsy enough to basically tell you to throw your son out to make room for her kids. Really?????? I disagree to an extent that your adult kids should be involved in your romantic decisions and I really don’t think younger kids should be involved in such matters, but you can’t be hands off with her kids (especially when they live in your house and you are responsible for the lion’s share of their financial support) and then let her be so vocal about how you deal with your son.

Andrew, I want you to be happy. Sometimes you sound happy with S and sometimes it seems that you are just more happy with having someone to spend time with and fuss over and it could be anyone. I certainly don’t expect you to share all the details and fine points of your interactions but sometimes I, sadly, picture you as one of those beleaguered sitcom dads who just throws his hands up and goes “whatever you want dear” while his significant other and children walk all over him.

You are clearly a kind, gentle, caring man with a lot of love to give and I think having a girlfriend/fiancé/wife gives you a sense of purpose. It’s too late to say it now since the train is barreling at full speed toward the edge of the cliff, but be careful. Pay attention to the red flags that are waving vigorously right in your face. And do NOT let her use her last relationship experiences to guilt you into things you don’t want or aren’t ready for.

Last edited by job; 03/29/20 07:04 PM. Reason: edited a word

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Thanks job/Dawn.

I just got back from dropping off a clothing donation of some wool pants that will never fit me again. I shrunk them a year or so ago and kept hoping that they'd fit. It looks like pretty much the whole village was out walking in the sudden burst of sunshine and warm weather we got on an otherwise rainy day. I wasn't able to go through our lovely park today though as it has been closed. People generally seemed to be doing well. A couple of groups from our village Baptist congregation were out dropping off flyers offering to assist anyone who needs it. With the general store closed and a good number of elderly people who find it difficult to manage at the best of times, that was nice to see.

I was surprised to get a message from S as I was walking asking how my walk was. She must have been checking the location sharing app we have. She asked what was being cooked for Sunday Supper (a ham) and if she was expecting an invitation I ignored that. She's still hunting for her ring and I expressed confidence in her ability to find it. The keys to her locker were lost for 2 months after she set them down somewhere safe - always a mistake.

I'm figuring that it will be a couple of days before we see each other again. She has an online doctor's appointment with S13 tomorrow so will need to fetch him from is Dad's place.

I told her that I have a fresh pot of tea and doing some office-work this afternoon which I should get back to. Got a virtual smooch in return.

I agree completely that I need to work harder on controlling and enunciating my own agenda and not just "go along". The standard DB principles of self-respect and being respected, not minimizing my own needs and not losing myself in the needs of others certainly apply.


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Originally Posted by JujuB


There’s an old article in The NY Times magazine you might be able to google that talks about how the best predictors for successful relationships is knowing how to fight fair. That this is more important then compatibility. Look at how she argues with you.

this is entirely true, in my experience. my exh hasn't a clue how to fight fair, it's either stonewall or eviscerate. this was even brought up by our marriage counselor. it's an essential ingredient to a successful relationship, romantic or otherwise. I've often wondered where we might be if he'd bothered to hone that skill.


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Originally Posted by AndrewP
I will say that S asked multiple times if I was ok with her giving notice on April 1st, often within the context of "are you sure you want to get married". And I said yes even though I thought it an aggressive / optimistic timeline especially given my own need to have S25 safely launched first. So it's all on me.


Andrew forgive me, I feel like I'm being obtuse in this question but I've read this a few times and I'm still not clear on why the 4/1 deadline is coupled with 'are you sure you want to get married' ...

maybe I'm missing something but I think it's possible to want to get married in the future and live separately in the present?

Originally Posted by AndrewP


I did get a lengthy message from her later in the day. I expect that she had to work her way up to what she wanted to day. She did tell me that she was disappointed and sad and that she will have a hard time explaining the delay to S13.


and why is this your problem? this is her son, she's mismanaged his expectations then it's her responsibility to fix that. not fair to use that in any argument.

Originally Posted by AndrewP

The old me would have apologized even more, back-tracked and tried to "make it all better". Instead I thanked her for her patience with me.




Bravo, Andrew!! Good job not buying into this.

Originally Posted by AndrewP

She also seems to have lost her engagement band. She'd thought it was here but I looked all over - even moving things - and couldn't find it. I'm pretty confident she had it on when she left and she said that she missed it when going to take it off before bed. I have seen it at her apartment sitting in various and odd places so hopefully it will turn up soon.


She's a big girl. this is her responsibility.


Originally Posted by AnrewP
I perhaps should have consulted with S on this but I also made a donation to MSF / Doctors Without Borders. I'm sure they can use a few bucks and I can certainly afford it given that my car has been largely just sitting in the garage. S and I have talked about both working together on budgets and financial planning starting in April.


It's lovely that you feel that you should include S in your current financial decisions. That shows that you are thinking like one half of a committed pair. Current reality is that these are your resources, and you are under no obligation, direct or implied, to consult with anyone on how and where you spend your resources, and can spend however you deem appropriate. Doctors without Borders is a great way to try to help mitigate the current situation on our planet and I suspect helped you to feel like you were a bit less powerless in the face of this. Don't feel bad about spending your hard-earned coin in any way you need or want to spend it.


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Originally Posted by AndrewP
Thanks job/Dawn.



I was surprised to get a message from S as I was walking asking how my walk was. She must have been checking the location sharing app we have. She asked what was being cooked for Sunday Supper (a ham) and if she was expecting an invitation I ignored that. She's still hunting for her ring and I expressed confidence in her ability to find it. The keys to her locker were lost for 2 months after she set them down somewhere safe - always a mistake.


Hunh. I'd have been surprised too.. Glad you ignored the expected invitation. Good job! Good job not getting sucked in re: the missing ring.

Originally Posted by AmdrewP

I told her that I have a fresh pot of tea and doing some office-work this afternoon which I should get back to. Got a virtual smooch in return.

Well done here as well.

Originally Posted by AndrewP


I agree completely that I need to work harder on controlling and enunciating my own agenda and not just "go along". The standard DB principles of self-respect and being respected, not minimizing my own needs and not losing myself in the needs of others certainly apply.


Good job Andrew. I like that you are putting yourself into this equation in a way that is respectful and fair to both sides.


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Day 14 of ???

Thanks bttrfly for the encouragement. This stuff isn't easy.

S messaged me in the late afternoon that she'd found her ring. Phew. Even though I treated it as "no big deal" it is something very symbolic to me and I believe to her as well. I just made sure that she knew that I had complete confidence in her being able to find it. She is a "Mom" after all and has been finding things that nobody else can find for decades.

According to "math" we've been dating either 6 or 7 months depending on how you count it. Limerence is largely a memory for me although I do go gooey from time to time still. I hope that I can approach things fairly objectively. As has been suggested, there is a real possibility that S is a variety of love addict. She certainly gives the impression of feeling things very strongly. She self-identifies as a "highly sensitive person" and that is one of the traits. Despite some outside perspective she doesn't jump from person to person and has at least in recent years had long gaps between relationships.

I can't be completely sure how S is feeling about everything. I'm sure she was upset and disappointed as she said. I honestly can't recall suggesting that she not continue to stay over before she left in her huff last Friday afternoon. Perhaps it was all in her head (?). I do know that she was frustrated by the fact that even though we were both in the same house that I spent all my time during working hours doing - you know - work. Then after work it's cleaning, cooking, taking the dog for a walk and all the usual household stuff. I suppose she could have been doing some of that but I'm not going to push her in to a domestic role and I enjoy doing the domestic stuff so why push someone else to do what I like doing other than to make more time for the two of us. I had maybe asked about what was up with the boys and if she was going to get S13 from his Dad and that got interpreted as wanting her out? There's no winning on trying to figure out that sort of stuff.

I think part of the issue we are having is that I've been very vague on what moving in actually looks like and the timelines. S had asked me at one point some months ago to make a list which I did and we talked about. She didn't do a list. Mine had things like doing redecorating and getting her dog registered with the township etc but no specific dates. It didn't have anything for her side of the process as that was "her side" and for her to take care of. S is very much a "list" sort of gal though. I think we need to talk and work together on a list with timelines and such. That will also help the boys I think so that they can see concrete information on where and when things will be happening.

Her S17 might not be moving in after-all. He has an offer from a buddy to move in with him and S is in favour of it. Buddy's parents travel a lot and are absent for months at a time (????) and they have I believe a loft apartment that S17 would be in. Not my kid and S seems perfectly comfortable with this idea. Given though that plans have changed a couple of times in the last few months I won't be shocked if they change yet again.

S25 and I had a chat over dinner last night (ham, mashed potatoes, veg with cheese sauce. Sparkling juice for accompaniment). He commented on how when he was a student with room-mates that girlfriends seemed to always be just moving in absent invitation. He was saying that they had a perfectly reasonable house just a few doors down but for some reason wanted to be in the over-crowded guy unit. Perhaps this is a thing? Women moving in unilaterally? It more or less happened to me with my ex when as soon as I signed the lease on a new apartment for me after we'd been dating for a few months started packing her own stuff.

He's really looking forward to being on his own. He said that work is going well and that the heated forklift (which he now is certified to run) isn't worth it as part of you gets slightly warm and the rest freezes even more. He expects to pass through his probation period without issue especially since they've already completed the paperwork. He's seen several people churn through the warehouse since he started making him not the most junior. Most of them are young people marking time before they move on to "something better". S25 is happy with a steady pay-cheque and the fact that he'll have benefits in just a week or so. He said that he expects to be working there for the indefinate future and that he works with guys who've been there 20 years and made a good life out of it.

Not sure what his mother thinks of all of this but I've certainly been supportive of this attitude. Not everyone needs to wear a bow tie every day and take conference calls. There's no reason why he can't have a very good blue collar life. His mother used to always push the kids for "more" and to look for that next brass ring to grab.

I think my vacation coming up is going to be both a challenge and opportunity. There is so very much to do around the house and maybe I'll even do it. I have a huge stack of books both physical and electronic that I can read as well. The framing of the rabbit hutch is now done and it needs probably another 4 or 5 hours of work to finish. I sent a picture of it to S last night and she and S17 are very excited. It's bloody huge. S25 and I leaned on it and held a beer and debated if it would fit out of the cellar door. I made reference to the one time his mother helped me carry a small sailboat I'd built out of the door and how proud she was that she hit her head (she's 4' 11"). I'm finding it easier to talk about her and the past with him.

I checked and we are more than welcome to wander around the farm whenever we like. It will be good to show S (and I suggested the boys too) around. The place is nothing like the working farm I grew up on. The barn is gone, the old house is ready to fall over on it's own, there's a new house, sheds and the place is more like a park than a farm. My SIL had been marketing it as a nature retreat with some success before "all this".

Well - I have a procedure checklist to go through, at least 2 memos to write and a conference call after lunch. Should be a busy day.

Stay safe all.


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She gets upset when you have a full- time job which needs to be worked at home? And if she wants to move in why wouldn’t she have a domestic role around the house? What does she do all day? She can’t go out , she shouldn’t be going out and she doesn’t work . And that can’t fall on you because you have to work. You have a career. And I think you might be making some excuses for her again.

Her expectations seem to be very unilateral.

And no, women don’t move into to a guys house unilaterally. Especially with their children and pets. That is not a thing, nor should it ever be a thing.

You were standing up for yourself a bit more and I think you would benefit from that rather than falling back into the habit of being passive and letting her drive the ship. You can do it.

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