Living in the Light - Part II

[bttrfly]

Tells me he loves me and values the time we spend together for as long as we have left. And there is the million dollar question... exactly how much time is that?

Do any of us know?
Seriously, I spent last night at a wake for a 16 year old kid who was killed by an 80+ year old woman who cut in front of him without a directional light. Kid was on a motorcycle. Had no where to go but the side of her car.
My point: nobody knows how long we've got. Carpe Diem sister.

Argh!!! I am such an idiot. I love him. I do. He has a lot of great qualities and he is honest and I know would not cheat on me. Like me, he says it is just not something he has ever done or could do.

I see no problems here

But the age difference is still a major factor and I’m not sure I can get past it. It is fine now...while I still look 40...but that isn’t going to last. And he hasn’t been married or had kids or done a lot of things I have done already. He could still find someone younger than him and do all that. And while he is perfectly happy to throw that away today, what about five years from now? He will be 44 and I will be 57.

I'm 55. I'm told all the time I don't look it. What do you think you're going to look like in your late 50s? You are fit, healthy, etc. Do you get where I'm going with that question?

This isn't Jack's problem. This is yours to resolve. I don't see you saying anywhere that Jack wants kids, or wants to get married or anything other than he wants to be with you.

Honey, love is a very precious gift. Could it be that you're scared to get hurt again, so you're manufacturing blocks to your relationship with someone you love who loves you? Think about it.

And then there is my family. My kids are not a problem. They just live in the moment and they like him. I asked them if it would be okay if he stayed with us for a bit and they said they would be totally fine with it. My other family, though, are not on the same page. They know the Jack from before and think he is completely wrong for me. I get it. If I were them, I would too. Jack and I did talk about his social anxiety. He says when he is in a group of people, he feels like his brain is in a wheelchair and he can’t think of what to say...is worried about being misunderstood or judged. Having said that, he came to my pool league last night and said hi to my friends and was a lot friendlier than he has been albeit still quiet. My sister gives him a hard time whenever she sees him and tells him to stop yelling. And then there is XH’s mom. I still have not told her Jack is staying with me for a couple weeks. I know she will not be happy. I am kind of hoping she doesn’t notice right away. She did say hi to him last Thursday when he first arrived but their paths haven’t crossed since. I know she will disapprove so I am avoiding.

I know you love your family and they love you. Put them aside while you figure out the other questions I asked you please.

Part of me says to just enjoy my time with Jack and the great sex and the way that he looks at me and live for the moment.

Listen to her.

The other part of me says I am playing with fire and one or both of us is just going to get hurt in the end.

That voice is the voice of fear. Do you want to give it an audience? Your choice.

Sigh...why is life so fricken complicated?!?

It's not. We tend to complicate things in an effort to stay 'safe' - which often equates with not living fully in the present.

putting down my 2x4 now. love you! xoxo

[DonH]

I guess I’m trying to figure out which is the real truth here among all if what you’ve said. You’ve been saying you knew it could never work, how bad you felt for hurting Jack. Then there was the fairytale with Brooke. Only a week ago you thought Jack was finally getting it and accepting the breakup and you were starting OLD again. Then poof, you and Jack are living together (for lack of a better word) for a few weeks and back together in his head and moving that way in yours.

You talk about the age difference but wow, this sounds like a story with college kids rather than a 50 something. Sorry that’s so harsh but I don’t think you at all know what you want. Jack didn’t turn into a different guy. That didn’t happen. I get it, it’s not easy but this all really seems so day to day, n a whim, “I think I’ll try this for awhile.”

And I once again find myself agreeing with ginger, how do you go from broken up and hoping he finally gets it, over to having him live with you for awhile. You’ve got to get honest with yourself here and decide what the real truth is along with what you really want - THEN start working towards it. Then again people like me like to have a destination, a route and hotel reservations while others rather just get in and drive, then say, oh look, I’m in Colorado.

[Yail]

You asked for 2x4s and you're getting a few. I also don't think it's what you were anticipating - I got the sense you thought we'd be saying "don't do it!"?. I'm seeing a lot of folks here say you need to figure out what YOU want. I'm on board with that message.

I do want to give my perspective though, as someone who was in a LTR with an age gap. You know my XW and I had 11 years between us. We got together when I was about 23, she was 34. Lasted until I was about 33, she was 44.

You know my story. You know I loved my XW fully and unapologetically and that I wish I had the rest of our lives together instead of the 10 we did have. But even after she left and my life was turned upside down I still do not for one SECOND regret any of our R. Not at all.

I made the decision at about 24 years old that I wasn't going to have children. This was because XW was clear and upfront with me that it wasn't for her, and she told me that if that mattered to me we needed to address it. I decided I would rather be with her than the off-chance I might want kids in some vague future.

So here I am, 35 years old without children and currently single. Do I want kids? Yes. I've always wanted kids. But I also am very comfortable with the fact that I won't be having them and I am okay with that. I made the decision for myself and even though part of me wants them I don't feel I *need* to have them to be happy. That would have been one way to live my life, and I chose another. There isn't one single path in which we are happy. I honestly think I would have been happy for the rest of my life if I was with XW. I also think I will be happy in this path.

I say this all because I'm the younger LBS, so in that sense I can relate to what you are projecting on to Jack.

BUT.

D.V.

(Here's the 2x4 part)

You are projecting. You are assigning him his wants vs needs, and deciding what his future should or shouldn't have. You are taking away his autonomy by pretending you know better than he does what his future should have. It's invalidating. He is a grown-*** man who can make his own thoughtful decisions, and you are not responsible for those outcomes.

Stop deciding for him, and start asking only what you want, and then be thoughtful, clear, and respectful in whatever that want is for you. Speak only for yourself.

And if you are undecided that's okay too. But be honest about it, and recognize that your own wants and needs might change. Stay authentic with yourself throughout and you'll be okay.


And regarding his personality with your family -

My XW was not always a "people person". She could be cranky, blunt, or just clear that she didn't want to be somewhere. I learned after a bit of time together that this improved greatly when I learned that it wasn't my deal. It was not my relationship to manage. Was she cranky with my family? Great - that's on all of them to work out. They can speak up if they feel a miscommunication or even some rudeness. The few times I tried to manage each side it got worse because I would inevitably mis-represent someone's intentions. Seriously, stay out of it. If your sis is ragging on him it's for Jack to speak up to her directly. If he's stand-offish it's for them to approach him. You are not his mother, and you are not your family's caretaker.

Do not manage other people's relationships. When I learned that my life became so much smoother. If a loved one comes to you with a complaint about your significant other the best response in my experience is a "Oh! Yes, you should say something to him directly that it affects you.". Let them have their own relationship separate of you and they'll respect each other more.

[bttrfly]

You asked for 2x4s and you're getting a few. I also don't think it's what you were anticipating - I got the sense you thought we'd be saying "don't do it!"?. I'm seeing a lot of folks here say you need to figure out what YOU want. I'm on board with that message.

I do want to give my perspective though, as someone who was in a LTR with an age gap. You know my XW and I had 11 years between us. We got together when I was about 23, she was 34. Lasted until I was about 33, she was 44.

You know my story. You know I loved my XW fully and unapologetically and that I wish I had the rest of our lives together instead of the 10 we did have. But even after she left and my life was turned upside down I still do not for one SECOND regret any of our R. Not at all.

I made the decision at about 24 years old that I wasn't going to have children. This was because XW was clear and upfront with me that it wasn't for her, and she told me that if that mattered to me we needed to address it. I decided I would rather be with her than the off-chance I might want kids in some vague future.

So here I am, 35 years old without children and currently single. Do I want kids? Yes. I've always wanted kids. But I also am very comfortable with the fact that I won't be having them and I am okay with that. I made the decision for myself and even though part of me wants them I don't feel I *need* to have them to be happy. That would have been one way to live my life, and I chose another. There isn't one single path in which we are happy. I honestly think I would have been happy for the rest of my life if I was with XW. I also think I will be happy in this path.

I say this all because I'm the younger LBS, so in that sense I can relate to what you are projecting on to Jack.

BUT.

D.V.

(Here's the 2x4 part)

You are projecting. You are assigning him his wants vs needs, and deciding what his future should or shouldn't have. You are taking away his autonomy by pretending you know better than he does what his future should have. It's invalidating. He is a grown-*** man who can make his own thoughtful decisions, and you are not responsible for those outcomes.

Stop deciding for him, and start asking only what you want, and then be thoughtful, clear, and respectful in whatever that want is for you. Speak only for yourself.

And if you are undecided that's okay too. But be honest about it, and recognize that your own wants and needs might change. Stay authentic with yourself throughout and you'll be okay.


And regarding his personality with your family -

My XW was not always a "people person". She could be cranky, blunt, or just clear that she didn't want to be somewhere. I learned after a bit of time together that this improved greatly when I learned that it wasn't my deal. It was not my relationship to manage. Was she cranky with my family? Great - that's on all of them to work out. They can speak up if they feel a miscommunication or even some rudeness. The few times I tried to manage each side it got worse because I would inevitably mis-represent someone's intentions. Seriously, stay out of it. If your sis is ragging on him it's for Jack to speak up to her directly. If he's stand-offish it's for them to approach him. You are not his mother, and you are not your family's caretaker.

Do not manage other people's relationships. When I learned that my life became so much smoother. If a loved one comes to you with a complaint about your significant other the best response in my experience is a "Oh! Yes, you should say something to him directly that it affects you.". Let them have their own relationship separate of you and they'll respect each other more.

So much yes!

[DejaVu6]

Thanks everyone. Figuring out what I want. That really is the thing, isn’t it. I want to be happy. Period. End of story. But I keep changing my mind on what it is I need to be that way. I know that I am happiest in a relationship and am not a serial dater. I want someone who loves me without reservation and someone I love the same way. I want someone who forces me to grow and vice versa. I want someone who appreciates me for the good qualities I possess and someone who accepts the rest. Is that Jack? I don’t know. Yes Don...he is the same person...but he is also different. I can’t explain it but the walls he had up before are just gone...like he has decided he doesn’t have anything to lose so he is just putting it all out there. The guy that I broke up with is not this guy. Will it last? I don’t know that either. He did say that he feels a lot better no matter what happens between us and loves me enough to let me go if that is what I want. I think I am going to enjoy the next week and then ponder it when I am in Vegas and away from my life.

Bttrfly - So much of what you say makes sense. It does. I’m just trying to figure out if I love him or I love the way he makes me feel. The “old” Jack was a bit mysterious...I was never sure how he felt about me. And while that can be intriguing in the beginning, it gets old fast when you feel like you are putting yourself out there and the other person isn’t. I did that dance with Jack and ultimately, I let him go. And I was good with my decision. And then this Jack shows up. The opposite of the first. Now he’s the one putting himself out there and telling me he loves me and I am beautiful. But is he doing this out of love or out of fear? He did say that I have raised the bar for him and that he can see himself being alone for a long time waiting for someone younger who is like me to come along. Is his fear that he might never find that person what is making him want to be with me? I agree that love is hard to find and when you find it, you shouldn’t just throw it away. But, as we all know, love is a feeling and feelings can change over time.

Yail - Such great advice about not managing other people’s relationships. I did that ALL of the time with XH...with my family but in particular, with his daughter. I made excuses for him and sometimes just outright lied so that other people wouldn’t think badly of him. It became a really bad habit and, ironically, the person I lied to the most about him was me. I don’t want to make excuses or lie anymore which is why I think I am agonizing about this so much.

Time to get ready for work. (((HUGS))) to all.

[DnJ]

Good Morning DV

What an interesting week for you.

I love him. I do. He has a lot of great qualities and he is honest and I know would not cheat on me. Like me, he says it is just not something he has ever done or could do.

Yes, Jack has many great qualities. It even sounds like he upped his communication style - which was a problem before.

But the age difference is still a major factor and I’m not sure I can get past it.

This has haunted you since you met him, and it still persists. Way back at the beginning of your relationship with Jack I suggested letting the age thing go. And the mind reading of what Jack is wanting or is unknowingly throwing away. But I’ll get to that later.

DV, you frame the problem correctly - I’m not sure I can get passed it.

You have an irrational/subconscious concern with the age difference. It includes how you see it - and how you imagine Jack sees it, your kids, your family, your XMIL, and others see it. The roots of your concern are rooted in your own head.

Let’s unravel this and explore a bit.

The way to overcome an irrational problem or fear is to rationalize it.

You say you really love Jack, but the age disparity is affecting you (in a kind of unknown way). You are 52 and Jack is 39. If Jack was 50, then what? Would that change things? Pretty sure it would be - Yeah! So, the relationship is really good, you just are hung up on age. So let’s defuse and uncouple that irrational connection of age and relationship disaster.

There is a rule of age for dating. A creepiness factor for how young of a person can you date. It is not scientific. However, it is wildly accepted. It does have much evidence of increased relationship problems when the limit is breached. And societally, through surveys, it does fit with what people generally as a whole see as appropriate. It is the rule of seven.

Regardless of gender do not date anyone less than half your age plus seven.

In your case your lower limit is (52/2)+7 = 33.

I encourage you to search this. There are many articles, charts, graphs, etc. Lots of rational material and accepted viewpoints. Rationally accept the material, and think about it. Allow the evidence and your thoughts to alter your irrational emotions and change your beliefs.

Some interesting extrapolation from this rule turn out to be rather obvious which also leads to increase it’s credibility. As one gets older the age gap get bigger. And towards the other end of the spectrum one shouldn’t start dating until they are 14.

Working out the upper limit for dating is also interesting. How old a man could you date?

(X/2)+7=52

X=90.

At first that seems like wow! Remember this is just a rough socially acceptable range guideline. Jacks range is 27 to 64.

Numbers, equations, graphs - nothing rationalizes like that. So, with all this rational confirmation - focus on the chemistry of your relationship and see where things go.

It is fine now...while I still look 40...but that isn’t going to last. And he hasn’t been married or had kids or done a lot of things I have done already. He could still find someone younger than him and do all that. And while he is perfectly happy to throw that away today, what about five years from now? He will be 44 and I will be 57.

All relationships face challenges. There are many things that can go wrong. And there are many things that can go right. Leave the unknown future to reveal itself as it will.

Your mind reading about Jack’s attraction and desires is just that, mind reading. Five years from now. 20 years from now. Leave it in the future. Jack will still find you gorgeous when you are 95.

And quit focusing on what you think he is throwing away. Listen to him. Instead see what he is embracing. That’s you by the way.

And then there is my family. My kids are not a problem. They just live in the moment and they like him. I asked them if it would be okay if he stayed with us for a bit and they said they would be totally fine with it. My other family, though, are not on the same page. They know the Jack from before and think he is completely wrong for me. I get it. If I were them, I would too. Jack and I did talk about his social anxiety. He says when he is in a group of people, he feels like his brain is in a wheelchair and he can’t think of what to say...is worried about being misunderstood or judged. Having said that, he came to my pool league last night and said hi to my friends and was a lot friendlier than he has been albeit still quiet. My sister gives him a hard time whenever she sees him and tells him to stop yelling. And then there is XH’s mom. I still have not told her Jack is staying with me for a couple weeks. I know she will not be happy. I am kind of hoping she doesn’t notice right away. She did say hi to him last Thursday when he first arrived but their paths haven’t crossed since. I know she will disapprove so I am avoiding.

There is a far bit of mind reading here. Projecting your irrational beliefs upon others.

Your kids do not have a problem with Jack’s age or Jack the person. You do not have a problem with Jack either.

To be a little more blunt. XH’s Mom, family, and others - it’s not their life, it’s yours. It’s your choice. They do not get to berate Jack or you. DV, you are 52, you live in the light - you need not avoid this. You have nothing to pussyfoot around here.

Figuring out what I want. That really is the thing, isn’t it. I want to be happy. Period. End of story. But I keep changing my mind on what it is I need to be that way. I know that I am happiest in a relationship and am not a serial dater.

Know thy self.

You are not a serial dater. You want a relationship. You want to be happy.

Good. Now go from there.

But I keep changing my mind on what it is I need to be that way.

Happiness and joy comes from within. Period. End of story.

Your first, best, and forever relationship is with you.

This is your life, your story. Kids, Jack, family, friends, work, etc. are big parts of your life, but they are not your life. They are all extras, you are the main character in your story.

DV, you have a wonderful happy life. Embrace all the extra parts which add more richness and happiness to your life, not define your life.

To return to your present concern, age difference. Uncouple it from the imagined future doom you have flitting about. In that uncoupling, age gap will become normalized and with nothing to latch onto the worried future will wither and flit away.

DnJ

[DejaVu6]

Ah DnJ… you always have such thoughtful posts. I really am in awe of the time you take to help people who are pretty much strangers to you. The equation you shared definitely makes me feel better...lol. Jack has become more of a fixture in my life these last couple of weeks. The reservations I had (have) are slowly starting to fade into the background. I am going to park my brain while I go on holidays and see where I am at when I return. And, just as importantly, see where he is at. The last couple of weeks have been really, really good... I was super busy with work and other things last night and he brought my kids dinner. He then texted me to ask me if there was anything else I wanted him to do which isn't something he has ever asked me before. The thing is... I know that this change has a lot to do with the fact that he missed me when we were apart and also because he didn't think I would ever give him a second chance...so he is trying really hard. But will happen when we start to get really used to each other again??? Of course, I guess that is the million dollar question for anyone in a new relationship. Why does life have to be so complicated? Why don't people just come with labels that tell you the longterm feasibility of being in a relationship with them...lol??

[bttrfly]

sending you something. check your PM ... xo

[Ginger1]

Nope, we don’t know the future. You seem happy, that’s great. I hope jack keeps up being the great partner he is being to you right now.

Enjoy your vacation and tournament! Is it still on?

[DejaVu6]

Well...this has been quite the couple of weeks. Still in disbelief about how this is all playing out. I was in Vegas when it basically shut down. Had been in touch with Airmiles for a couple of days and managed to get a flight back home the morning after Nevada’s governor shut the state down. Surreal to be walking through a quiet casino with only a few people around. Only the singles portion of the tournament happened as they cancelled the teams part due to the pandemic. Both my sister and I got into the money...she finished 5/6 and I finished 13-16. Played people from all over the place...Florida, Hawaii, Kentucky, etc... It was a lot of fun but, in hindsight, I wished I had stayed home. Had I known that teams were going to be cancelled, I would have but I didn’t want to be the person who let the team down by not showing up. Seems stupid now I didn’t fully grasp the situation at the time I needed to make it unfortunately.

Anyway... I arrived back home on Wednesday and started my 14 day isolation. Had an argument with XH just prior to going home. He wanted me to move out of my home for two weeks to stay with my sister despite the fact that her husband hadn’t travelled and needed to be able to go to the store and run their businesses. He tried to make it seem like it was out of concern for his mom but since she doesn’t live with me and has a separate suite that she lives in, it was complete BS. He just wanted to be able to dump the kids off on her and knew they would be accessing my part of the house if he did. Uh no... I spent years single parenting...now it’s your turn. Suck it up. Haven’t spoken to him since.

SD20 is having a rough time of it. She had two jobs and now has no job. So...after my 14-day quarantine is over, she will be moving in. Still not talking to her dad so he’s not going to be helping her at all. Not really wanting to add a third “child” to my house but since both of her parents are gong shows, she has no one else. I’ve set some ground rules with her that I think should suffice to keep things good between us. Hopefully there will be jobs for her to apply for soon as I haven’t planned for a third dependent.

On Day 4 of social isolation. Really missing my kids. Glad my sister is here with me, for the most part, although there have been moments when I would prefer to be alone. When we start to get on each other’s nerves too much, I just isolate in my room and she hangs out in the living room. Seems to be working so far. FaceTimed with my kids last night. It was great to see their smiling faces. They seem like they are doing pretty well although bored with just having each other to play with. S12 is playing video games online with his friends and D12 is doing a lot of art and talking to her besties online as well. Can’t wait until these 14 days are up and they can come home.

Ginger...really, really concerned about you and how this pandemic is playing out in your area. Please be very, very careful. The numbers are extremely concerning to put it mildly. Can’t believe the lack of action on the part of your federal government but then again, given who is at the helm, it’s not super surprising. Crazy that he announced a couple weeks ago that the US had the virus beat (delusional) and a vaccine was on the way within a month (outright lie). And a reporter asked him on Friday if he had anything to say to Americans who are scared and he chastised that person for asking a “nasty question”. Meanwhile, our PM is making daily addresses to the country and answering every question being thrown at him. Really feel for the people in your state and in your country. Praying for you all...