LH summed it up succinctly. But just to be clear I wasn’t trying to get you to armchair diagnose your wife. I was trying to get you to understand bending to her every whim about what you’re doing wrong is pointless. You can’t trust that her complaints about you are actually valid. You can validate that she feels that way but if you can look at what she’s saying like this communication issue, or like my house me apparently belittling my WH everyday our entire relationship, and objectively see what they are saying makes no sense you validate and walk away. 1) we can’t fix our MR right now we have to fix ourselves and the WSs need to fix themselves. Eventually if we get in a space to R then we can fix the MR. Why tread water needlessly waiting for the relay, when you could be perfecting your own 500 M. 2) listen to LH. Is LBSs swing just like our lovely WSs. We tend to find center more easily but when looking back at the relationship we tend to first see it with rose colored then a post apocalyptic sh*t storm of Mad Max proportions. As we move through our statges of grief this happens. As WSs throw us a curve ball or a blow up version of a crappy behavior they had prior to BD this happens. Every body here is in crisis. We don’t always behave rationally. The goal though especially if their are kids is to try to find center. Try to be rational. Try to remain the anchor for the family. The kids need one stable adult right now.
Just focus on being the best you and best dad you can be.
Wayfarer, I didnt get that armchair diagnoses from you. No worries there. Your post just opened up my mind and I went in to my own rabbit hole. Thank you and LH for the good points. Its beyond easy to lose focus. Im starting to wonder if Im a narc now after some of the things I've done and read.
I'm scared, downright scared. Today W checked out my medicines for an unknown reason. I found she's checking out townhouses which doesnt mean anything as she used to all the time but still....and well she's acting nice. She asked me what I wanted to do for my bday and is going to make my favorite meal. So many mixed signals. I talked earlier in passing and she acted like she didnt hear me. Its not uncommon if she doesnt want to talk about the subject. Im thinking Im hypersensitive. Something new to work on and I think wayfarer noticed this in me a few posts back.
Empaths attract narcs, this scares me more. I dont know if she is one however everyone I've talked to is alarmed by her behavior, before and after BD, including my counselor. Normally you dont just "let your walls down" after several months of stonewalling and suddenly act nice. She stone walled me years ago for 2 months as well over a miscommunication. I love my 2nd child and I wouldnt trade him for anything. I did have serious concerns about W before we had him and maybe i should've asked for D or counseling then. Now 4 lives are caught in this.
I miss adult female emotional contact. Im not a cheater and my W mostly avoids me so what do I do but suffer in a way while building myself up and waiting with no end in sight?
H37, W37 D4, S2 ILYBNILWY 9/19 BD 9/19 EA discovered 10/19 Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
I miss adult female emotional contact. Im not a cheater and my W mostly avoids me so what do I do but suffer in a way while building myself up and waiting with no end in sight?
Core, it always within your right and your power to pull the plug. No one could blame you for being the one to follow through with D and moving on. I get the female emotional contact. Heck, I would have just as much problem going without physical contact! But do it the right way. Move forward with D and move on with someone else.
But only do that when you've earned your way out of your current MR. You want to look into your kids eyes one day and say honestly that you did everything in your power to try to save your marriage to their mother. And you want to be able to move on without any emotional baggage because that will doom your next R to failure.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Since I'm so close to the end of the line here, I started a relationship chat. I dont want to put too much out here in case it comes back to us...I found some history and it showed nothing. Just nothing. No self improving, no attempts to D. Nothing. I found a saved file on our computer and on it was her perspective, writing out how she much she hates me, my actions, and well just about everything about me. Even if W cheated on me physically, I couldnt imagine putting something like that in writing. It tells me a few things...she is feeling worse and worse towards me as time goes, likely isn't on the fence about the R and she has levels of anger and hatred I need to protect the kids and I from. Not saying she's unsafe with the kids. Shes great with them. The negative energy can be sensed however if science is correct.
If she feels that way, the kids dont need to see me be around that. Its healthy for no one. I know this is just how she feels at THIS moment but hasnt it been long enough? She's had since September to do something...anything. I had a chat to ask her whats going on with her and to help me determine if she is a narc and I need to run. She showed quite a few signs of narc but I still have a little doubt. The blame continues to be on me, even for things there is no evidence for. She acknowledge some points I brought up. Some turned on me but some was acknowledged so maybe im overly sensitive. Either way, our status hasnt changed.
I know per DB it should be all about her during chats...but I dont care which way we go now. I dont want to spend much more time around a toxic person filled with conditional love that hates me and cannot look internally at themselves. I feel badly for her, deeply. Surprisingly the file I found didnt affect me much. Old me would've broken down and cried. Now I think as maybe a WAH would...I barely cared. Just more of the same. I'm planning my departure, setting a deadline. I'll give one last shot before I file then I'm out. I was hard to be around, I get that. If I did and said the things shes done, I cant imagine how she'd react. If Im gone, maybe she'll find a new enemy and the kids can have co parents that at least tolerate each other. Im afraid if I stay longer, it can go so far as me never being about to forgive. For my health, I dont want to hold the negatively forever. My kids need a healthy pillar.
Im sorry all, I know this is a marriage saving site. I think I have to tap out before I will with hatred as she has. All this over fixable things.
H37, W37 D4, S2 ILYBNILWY 9/19 BD 9/19 EA discovered 10/19 Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
You definitely need patience in the DB game but I understand if you want out and move on. I just caution you that being D with two really young children will not be easy on them or you. I also think you want to be able to tell your kids some day that you did everything you could to keep your family together.
You haven’t once tried to take the focus off your W for a second. Something to think about.
Core, take a deep breath. When we have an especially arduous R talk, or find a file of W's thoughts, or find out there is an OM, sometimes we get what we like to refer to as the "illusion of action". Where something must be done.
Here is the thing.....nothing has changed. That file was written who knows how long ago, and your finding it doesn't change anything. Today is no different than yesterday, you just know about the file now. I'd like to point out a couple of things because you seem to think you are detached now, don't care one way or the other, and ready to move on. But are you?
1) Why did you start a R talk? Think about it. If you are detached, really done, don't care, and ready to move on, why would you start an R talk? Most people don't have R talks unless they still care to some level.
2) Why did you read the file? Once you knew what it was? If you really are done, ready to move on, and don't care, why would you have read the entire thing. Great, it didn't affect you the way it would have before, but it still affected you. Why? You need to get to that underlying answer.
3) Most of us that were in limbo think that limbo is the worst. Limbo is the gift of time. Many LBSs would kill for a 3 month, 6 month, 12 month or longer limbo period. Those are LBSs that get left right out of the gate. The words "I want a D" are still in the air as their WAS is packing and leaving. Point is, don't do something rash over something that doesn't really mean anything.
Now I am proponent of setting a deadline. I notoriously had a deadline, and put it right in my signature. Just make sure the deadline is further out than the time you need to get ready. And then DB your butt off (that means no R talks!) between then and now.
I also highly suggest you stop trying to DB to save your marriage....and DB to save yourself. You can't believe the impact that can have on your WAS.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
They all write these things. My W did. It actually is good because the only people who can hurt us this bad are the people we love. If she didn't care about you, it wouldn't hurt that much.
Quote
She's had since September to do something...anything.
That's not even 6 months. My sitch took much longer to really turn around and most do IMO.
I noticed you called her love conditional with a bit of scorn and mentioned your conditions immediately after. We all have a breaking point. I'm not going to tell you how to live your life. Just realize that unconditional love is not something that most marriages have.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
On the topic of unconditional love...you can stay or leave a marriage and still love that person. I certainly have conditions to remain in the M however I believe I will always have love for the inner being that is my W. At this point though I dont know who the real her is...the woman that seduced me, the one who appeared at good times, bad times or the woman in between. I think the insecure, desiring and sharing love person is her but I dont know. I dont know which person is real and who is the mask. Its unreal.
You guys have convinced me to give it more time but it seems impossibly hard. I still question if D is better for the kids.
In response to Steves points: 1) I still care on some level and want ro resolve things before we both have both feet out the door. Seeing how alarming the file was, I worry about Ws mental health. If she got pushed to D by our chat then maybe thats a good thing for all of us.
2) To see where she is at. To see if I'm being used. To see if I should protect myself legally.
3) I see your point. Im not sure if ripping off the band aid quickly or slowly is better.
In regards to the file, I can understand other Ws write out some feelings. I'd love to post the whole thing to get your take. Here is a portion and why I'm wondering if I need to leave: "I F hate you and your mother F personality. Youre a Mother F stupid piece of S who is insecure, selfish and doesnt know himself, me and is clueless as to what a marriage is. I F hate you and the way you talk, the stupid way you walk". This continues on. As this was saved on a PC, I could see when it was edited which was 3 weeks ago. The worst things i ever said about W are probably on this board. No where near as intense and hurtful.
If she hates me this much, how long until a false abuse claim? How long till the kids are affected by the vibe? D4 seems affected, she no longer comes to me for anything. Maybe a phase or because im barely home anymore, still, this is getting bad under the surface. This file is way more intense than the ones I found around D day. She seems worse, not better after my DBing.
H37, W37 D4, S2 ILYBNILWY 9/19 BD 9/19 EA discovered 10/19 Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
On the topic of unconditional love...you can stay or leave a marriage and still love that person. I certainly have conditions to remain in the M however I believe I will always have love for the inner being that is my W. At this point though I dont know who the real her is...the woman that seduced me, the one who appeared at good times, bad times or the woman in between. I think the insecure, desiring and sharing love person is her but I dont know. I dont know which person is real and who is the mask. Its unreal.
Your wife is all those things. Like a normal human person. You have to stop. You're the one who put her on a pedestal so high she had no where to go but to tumble down. She certainly didn't put her self there. LBS have to take blame where we have blame. The pedestal thing is a common one. Your wife is good, bad, sweet, sick, soft, hard. All of it. That's how people work. She is human the way you are human. She's just not the best version of herself right now. And it's your right to not want to live with that. It's your right to not want to stay married to that. You get to draw your own line in the sand here. You however need to slow down and stop demonizing the mother of your children. She might be a crap person. She may very well be mentally ill. She may very well be the devil incarnate. I don't know. I don't know this woman. But you have to raise kids with her for a very, very long time, and the more you allow yourself to fall into this rabbit hole of being some kind of victim of hers and turning her into some kind of sadist the worse your are making things for yourself regardless of outcome. If you manage to some how get to an R you now have to over come your own guilt about turning her into something she's not to serve your need to help you rationalize her behavior. If you D and you keep going like this I guarantee your wife will take everything she's written in that file and make sure everyone in your universe including her lawyer and your judge hears all of it. The whole point of this DBing stuff is to stay above all of this. Not to stoop down to that level. You have to get out of crisis mode.
Originally Posted by Core
You guys have convinced me to give it more time but it seems impossibly hard. I still question if D is better for the kids.
What's best for the kids is what will make their parents stable and happy. Diving head long into a D when you can't even get your emotions in check enough is not that.
Originally Posted by Core
In regards to the file, I can understand other Ws write out some feelings. I'd love to post the whole thing to get your take. Here is a portion and why I'm wondering if I need to leave: "I F hate you and your mother F personality. Youre a Mother F stupid piece of S who is insecure, selfish and doesnt know himself, me and is clueless as to what a marriage is. I F hate you and the way you talk, the stupid way you walk". This continues on. As this was saved on a PC, I could see when it was edited which was 3 weeks ago. The worst things i ever said about W are probably on this board. No where near as intense and hurtful.
Oh then you probably wouldn't like the notes on my phone the time my WH disappeared for 14 hours. Or the first night he didn't come home. Or the day each one of our girls came to me to tell me they knew about OW. Or 2 years before all of this the texts I sent to my best friend when he chose to go to an event without me when I couldn't get off work for it even though I skipped it the year before because he couldn't go. And you really wouldn't have wanted to hear the things I said the night he tried to go xmas shopping with OW at the local mall when I went into a complete rage and was not aware of DBing yet. I can tell you in that instance I said waaayyy worse things than your W and seriously considered doing very damaging illegal things to both his car and hers in the mall parking lot. People are entitled to unkind thoughts and feelings. People are also entitled to some privacy, and while I know things are messy, and I'm not exactly morally opposed to LBS's doing a little snooping, you have to realize reading literally all of that file was essentially sitting down and reading her diary. You are not sans fault here, Core.
I've seen a lot of other newbies around us doing this same thing where they have these expectations of the WS/WAS living by the exact same moral codes, ethics and relationship rules as they have. #1 that's impossible to have an exact match in a healthy relationship with two healthy people. #2 that's an insane expectation of a spouse in a wayward/MLC/walk away emotional crisis; they are not operating even on their own standard set of those codes much less yours.
Also "edited 3 weeks ago" just means opened. If she opened it and saved it exactly as is, that's considered edited. Also 3 weeks ago my WH was still having date nights with his OW. He's not any more. 3 weeks is more than enough time for feelings to change. Especially with a WS/WAS. You're putting a lot of emotional stock in a diary entry from at least 3 weeks ago if not longer.
Originally Posted by Core
If she hates me this much, how long until a false abuse claim? How long till the kids are affected by the vibe? D4 seems affected, she no longer comes to me for anything. Maybe a phase or because im barely home anymore, still, this is getting bad under the surface. This file is way more intense than the ones I found around D day. She seems worse, not better after my DBing.
Why are you going 5 steps ahead here? You have no idea if there's going to be a false claim or not. And these things are investigated. DV is super messy and complicated and it's not just investigated by the police but it's also then investigated by the DAs office before they are willing to prosecute, and if that's such a fear of yours I strongly suggest you sitting down with an attorney.
The kids are already affected here. Just because really little ones can't articulate it doesn't mean they don't get the social cues that are happening around them. But I highly doubt the 4 yo is avoiding you because of that. That might be a little projection and that isn't fair to your W or your child. Maybe it's something else entirely like you not being home much. Thankfully though your kids are very little and therefore very resilient and will bounce back easily regardless of outcome here. You can't protect them from this by staying together or getting a D. They're in the middle of this mess and will be riding along with you two for the duration.
If this is a phase like you say why do you care? If you're working on your detaching you should be moving on from this by now, right? Not getting swept up in the roller coaster...isn't that the goal?
Last and most importantly I need you to think about this carefully. If you are so convinced that your W is a mentally ill vindictive evil disaster of a human why are you "barely home anymore" while she's there with kids who have no protective capacities? GALing isn't meant to be at the expense of the well being of your kids. So either you don't think she's as dangerous as you are saying, you are constantly taking your kids with you, or you are making really poor parenting choices by leaving small children with an unstable volatile person? Am I missing information here? Because what you're presenting that's what this looks like.
In regards to the file, I can understand other Ws write out some feelings. I'd love to post the whole thing to get your take. Here is a portion and why I'm wondering if I need to leave: "I F hate you and your mother F personality. Youre a Mother F stupid piece of S who is insecure, selfish and doesnt know himself, me and is clueless as to what a marriage is. I F hate you and the way you talk, the stupid way you walk". This continues on. As this was saved on a PC, I could see when it was edited which was 3 weeks ago. The worst things i ever said about W are probably on this board. No where near as intense and hurtful.
If she hates me this much, how long until a false abuse claim? How long till the kids are affected by the vibe? D4 seems affected, she no longer comes to me for anything. Maybe a phase or because im barely home anymore, still, this is getting bad under the surface. This file is way more intense than the ones I found around D day. She seems worse, not better after my DBing.
Maybe she wrote that after a particularly rough interaction with you. Maybe that was what she was feeling at that moment. I've heard spouses say to each other "uh, I hate you right now. I can't even look at you!" But that doesn't mean they really hated their spouse, it was the anger speaking at the moment they said it. I think to base your entire next move on this file is short-sighted. Hasn't she given you letters and cards over the years telling you how much she loves you and wants you in her life? Why is this file more legitimate than all those other expressions.
See, I think you are looking for a way out of limbo, and want to use this file as your excuse. "She hates me now, no since in trying anymore." Remember, this decision, whether to give it more time or whether to pull the plug, has the possibility of being a decision you have to live with......FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. I've had Rs where I grew tired of waiting for it to move forward, and pulled the plug. One in particular I still look back and wonder what might have been if I had just given it more time. It is a terrible thing to have to live with, knowing you weren't patient enough.
Your goal should be to move on with no regrets. That you can look your kids in the face and say "I did EVERYTHING I could. I exhausted all my options, to try to fix it. I gave it ample time and it did not change." Likely your kids will question it if it is < a year. More than a year and you might have some sympathy from them. But your goal should be to leave with a clean conscience.
Personally, I think you need to give it more time. I was going to give my WAW a year before I pulled the plug. It is always in your right to say "I've had enough, I am out." But living with that decision is something you'll have to deal with.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
