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Originally Posted by AndrewP
3 - Jack Three Beans - a former moderator here - gave me the wonderful advice to not pay attention to the odds. It didn't matter if it's 1-10 or 1-1000000. The idea was to focus on the fact that you want to be that one who succeeds.

And where is this Jack fellow now?

Seriously, no one doubts your desire to make this a success; it's a question of how miserable you could potentially be once you're successful. We don't want you to be hopping around on one leg telling us it's just a flesh wound. That's not a good look in these modern times.

Additionally, there's that little matter of you being caught dry humping a picture of Gloria whilst supposedly folding the linens. How do you explain that away?

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Originally Posted by doodler
Originally Posted by AndrewP
3 - Jack Three Beans - a former moderator here - gave me the wonderful advice to not pay attention to the odds. It didn't matter if it's 1-10 or 1-1000000. The idea was to focus on the fact that you want to be that one who succeeds.

And where is this Jack fellow now?

Seriously, no one doubts your desire to make this a success; it's a question of how miserable you could potentially be once you're successful. We don't want you to be hopping around on one leg telling us it's just a flesh wound. That's not a good look in these modern times.

Additionally, there's that little matter of you being caught dry humping a picture of Gloria whilst supposedly folding the linens. How do you explain that away?



Unfortunately he passed away. And that is really too bad because I think he would have given Andrew some excellent advice over the past few years.

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Originally Posted by AndrewP


I'm not sure what's wrong with helping a friend who has a bad back clean - especially when we are working towards being a couple and I was spending the weekend there. Both boys being away gave us a great opportunity to move some heavy stuff and clean in spots that were hard to get to with them being under-foot.


K is my friend. We have not slept together, we have not kissed beyond him kissing me on the cheek a handful of times. We haven't even held hands. We've hugged. Sometimes we walk arm in arm. We each call the other when we're stressed and need to vent or need a comforting ear, and depend on each other for emotional support in a way that sometimes seems like we are working towards being a couple, yet most times it seems we are happily ensconced in the friend zone.

In comparison, S is wearing a ring you put on her finger, and you are planning a wedding for this fall, which means she is your fiancee. I do not know how they do it north of the border, but here in the states, at least in Puritan New England, that's a far sight more than "working towards being a couple" my friend. You ARE a couple.

BTW, both boys are old enough to help with the heavy cleaning.

Originally Posted by AndrewP

And yes - I can appreciate that for some people the fact that she is still technically married despite not having co-habitated for quite a few years does offend some here. Their reconciliation attempt last year was going on a few dates where she realized that he hadn't changed. She's dated others, he's dated others both before and after that attempt. It's been over for so long that it has moss growing on it and in fact she's been on her own for even longer than I have I believe.


Andrew, honey, you are on a board where MOST of us have been jilted for other people, or had partners cheat, come back, then finally leave for good. Know your audience.

Originally Posted by AndrewP

And I'm not scared of being alone. I have been single myself for quite a while and do enjoy the freedom that it brings. But I also want to have someone to share my life with and am grateful that we found each other. What I lose will be more than offset by what I gain.

Breathe in - breathe out. No drama going on here.

Sheesh.


In 12-18 months, you've been involved to some degree or another with 3 married women. THREE. The first you didn't get too closely involved with. You and B exchanged ILYs very quickly and she moved in with the speed of light, and out just as fast. Now there is S, who your son told you not to get involved with for reasons you've not shared with us, and don't need to, btw.

There are many, many women for you to be involved with who are not currently in some version of a marriage. What is far more concerning to me is that you've told us that your pattern with your wife was she took you hostage and kept you that way for the entirety of your relationship. I don't see that pattern changing with either B or now S, for it's seemed to me that you are instantly involved with any woman who lets you know she's interested in you. This has been said to you before and you've said that's a good reason to get involved with someone. It's not. Not really, unless you have an interest first and foremost.

This is not about the women in question, or even about their marital status. The deeper pattern to look at is that YOU are the common factor in these relationships. Have you ever once gone after a woman who didn't make it expressly clear that she wanted you first?

If not, why not??

It is what it is, and it will be what it will be. You, Andrew, seem to become more entrenched the more people try to offer words of caution. Many of us see you merrily skipping along with your head in the clouds, wearing headphones so you can't see us jumping up and down waving our arms trying to get your attention, or hear us yelling as the train is speeding your way. That's ok. It is your life, and your decisions. Remember that you do stand to lose quite a bit if this goes t!ts up.

LH by my reckoning, Andrew would be husband #4. The percentages are as follows (with all due respect to Jack, who I'm sure would have plenty to say about this):

First marriages ending in divorce: 50-60%
Second marriages ending in divorce: ~65%
Third marriages ending in divorce: 73-75%
Fourth marriages ending in divorce: 93% within 5 years.

5 years is a key number in that people who get seriously involved and re-married within 5 years of a divorce have a statistically higher likelihood of being divorced again within 5 years of that re-marriage. Why? Because they haven't learned the lessons, are often repeating patterns and substituting new people expecting different results. Look to YOUR patterns first Andrew. Once you are sure your patterns are broken look to your partner's and make sure that hers are also laid to rest. That is how you will beat the odds.

DonH, a pre-emptive post: I've said all I'm going to say on the subject of Andrew's relationship. We've tried. He's NOT INTERESTED IN WHAT WE HAVE TO SAY. I for one am not going to continue to offer suggestions to someone h3ll bent on a course of action that is diametrically opposed to anything I would offer. Andrew, I wish you all the best of luck. I believe in stats, and believe you will need all the luck you can get.


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
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Originally Posted by bttrfly
DonH, a pre-emptive post: I've said all I'm going to say on the subject of Andrew's relationship. We've tried. He's NOT INTERESTED IN WHAT WE HAVE TO SAY. I for one am not going to continue to offer suggestions to someone h3ll bent on a course of action that is diametrically opposed to anything I would offer. Andrew, I wish you all the best of luck. I believe in stats, and believe you will need all the luck you can get.

You’ll get no argument from me Butterfly. I was at this point weeks ago. It’s like trying to tell a love-struck 15-year-old that her current boyfriend is not good for her. The more the parents say and try to do, the more she is hell bent on proving them wrong. Of course within a relatively short time they are proven correct.

What bothers me most is how we are now being treated. Overlooked, poo-poo’d, condescended to, and patted on the head like 12-year-olds and told to “settle down” and breath - sheesh. As if everyone here is talking crazy. Time will tell and the odds are, sadly, greatly on our side. The thing is had B not called it quits, that hasty R would still be plowing forward. Doodler is correct, S could shoot Andrew in the leg and there would be excuses made for all of it so the R could continue.

Sadly there is likeky nothing else we can do. There is no way any any quality therapist, someone of MWD caliber, would support what’s going on. We are all wrong? Not likely. And we are not even saying to dump S and run. We are simply saying SLOW DOWN if it’s true love it will still be true love a year from now. But like the 15-year-old referenced above, they just can’t see it. You can’t make sense out of nonsense. Can’t ask someone to live together without being engaged but can ask them to be engaged while one of them is still married. This may somehow make great sense to Andrew but most of the rest are not convinced. Oh but we all need to just settle down and breathe.

It won’t take 5 years and that makes me sad. I guess if there is any silver lining we are seeing why the D rate is as high as it is. I still feel bad watching a freight train heading towards the car on the tracks but it’s not like we didn’t try. And we will be here ready to help and support should the crash take place. At least we all know that we tried.

Last edited by job; 02/24/20 06:16 PM. Reason: removed official name of "B"

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I'm not making excuses for what Andrew is doing, however, I want to point out he is not the first and won't be the last to be involved with a separated/married woman. We have had people who came here and hooked up before they were divorced or one was divorced and the other was still going through a separation/divorce and then we had others who were trying to save their marriages and ended up hooking up for a while. Those posters were not quite as open as Andrew has been about his life.

I'd like to share a story of someone that I knew and respected from his very first posting right up to when he left the Board.

Back in the early 2000's, we had a gentleman come to the Board attempting to understand and save his marriage. We also had a woman come to the Board trying to understand and save her marriage. Both posters lived on opposites sides of the US. At that time, we were allowed to post contact information on the Board. As time went on, their postings began to sound a bit more than just two people posting and giving support to each other on the Board. Eventually the gentleman ceased posting and the woman continued to post.

I contacted that gentleman to inquire as to why he had stopped posting. He confessed to me that he and this woman had gotten a bit too close (maybe an emotional affair for all I know) and he felt that he shouldn't be on the Board. Apparently they had been emailing and contacting each other off the Board. What started out as supporting each other turned into something else and he realized at some point, what had happened. He still loved his wife and wanted to try to save his marriage and the woman was still attempting to save her marriage. At that time, I told him to cease all contact outside of the Board w/this woman if he truly wanted to save his marriage and put his focus back on himself and his marriage. I advised him that he was more than welcome to return to the Board and we all make mistakes, but to learn from those mistakes and continue to move forward. He returned to the Board a much wiser man and never breathed a word of what had transpired. If he posted to the woman poster, he kept his postings on a professional level from that time on. She eventually left the Board and I don't think she saved her marriage.

He worked hard on himself and he finally saved his marriage. He continued to post for many years and provided sage advice to all he posted to.

So, why am I sharing this today? Because both parties were still married. One was still living in the home and the other was living in an apartment. Both parties were attempting to save their marriages and yet, they crossed the line until one of them realized what was happening. The emotional connections between two people can happen so quickly and that "euphoric" feeling is so strong, that they will not listen to what others are telling them. Yes, it is frustrating, but sometimes they have to hit that brick wall a number of times before they realize what they are doing and what it will cost them in the long run. Sometimes, they have to learn the "lessons" the hard way.

Just my two cents for today.




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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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I’m actually less concerned about stats (you can show stats for anything - need to take into account on those stats in which subjects married their affair partners, are they waywards or addicts remarrying versus LBS remarrying etc)
There’s a stat out there many posters on this site refer to that says more women file for divorce at much higher rates then men. But it doesn’t take into account that they file cause their husbands left or are involved with affair partners.

I’m also not concerned that Andrew is OM. She’s separated for 5 years right? Some people need benefits etc. and Andrew is certainly not sneaking around with someone.

But it is concerning that she snapped at you for the way you dry dishes after everything you have been doing for her. I get that she’s in pain, but no excuse. The reason it’s concerning is that it’s early in the relationship and that’s when you are putting your best foot forward. So the snapping has the potential of getting worse. Much worse. Because she’s showing that she’s not very appreciative or able to see your end and point of view.

You are also seeing some differences that you might want to pay attention to. She likes to relax and you like to do. She seems to procrastinate (on her divorce certainly) and you handle things immediatly. How will that play a role long term? What plans do you have set in place so that you don’t end up doing everything? Will those differences end up complimenting each other or frustrate each other?

Her son seems to be getting very attached to you and that’s concerning too because he has the potential to be badly hurt in all this.

I’ll be honest butterfly - I wasn’t comfortable with the emboldened “know your audience”. It sounded threatening. Andrew should be free to talk about his life despite what triggers others here might have. Any triggers are for readers to deal with, not for Andrew to have to censor. I do agree that Andrew should explore the common patterns in the women he ends up settling down with. I also noticed that they were the ones to initiate too and something to explore. In a past post Andrew - you mentioned that you don’t believe in soul mates/ true loves etc. but is it more of a marriage of convenience? Do you feel like or have you considered that you Are you exchanging stability for companionship and is that enough? In some cultures it is and I’m not putting that down. But maybe it’s good to really examine what relationship dynamics you have been patterning and what it is you deserve from someone


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Before we shackle Andrew to the stocks in the village square, I think there's a more important issue that everyone is missing. S's husband hasn't been seen for several days and it's been reported that there's a missing hazmat suit down at the acid plant and 20S stopped by Andrew's house on Saturday to pick up "some stuff." Coincidence? I think not.

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Originally Posted by JujuB


Her son seems to be getting very attached to you and that’s concerning too because he has the potential to be badly hurt in all this.

This concerns me as well.


Originally Posted by JujuB

I’ll be honest butterfly - I wasn’t comfortable with the emboldened “know your audience”. It sounded threatening.


I'm sorry you were made uncomfortable by the bold text on the 'know your audience' and thank you for bringing that to my attention. I made it bold because others have posted similar thoughts which I don't believe Andrew ever addressed, and, frankly, I wanted to emphasize it because I believe it needs to be addressed. It's not about triggers, it's a simple what do you expect from a group of people who came here to save their marriages? That's what Divorce Busting is all about, trying to save the marriage because presumably if you're here you believe in the sanctity of the institution. Andrew's first dating, then living with, a still-married woman (B) and now engaged to another (S) whom he began dating two months after the first one moved out flies in the face of that ethos.

Originally Posted by JujuB
Andrew should be free to talk about his life despite what triggers others here might have. Any triggers are for readers to deal with, not for Andrew to have to censor.


Absolutely, and we are also free to express an opinion, since presumably he's posting because he wants one. As always, all are welcome to take what makes sense and leave the rest behind, no harm, no foul.

Originally Posted by JujuB
I do agree that Andrew should explore the common patterns in the women he ends up settling down with. I also noticed that they were the ones to initiate too and something to explore. In a past post Andrew - you mentioned that you don’t believe in soul mates/ true loves etc. but is it more of a marriage of convenience? Do you feel like or have you considered that you Are you exchanging stability for companionship and is that enough? In some cultures it is and I’m not putting that down. But maybe it’s good to really examine what relationship dynamics you have been patterning and what it is you deserve from someone
.

Exactly. Focus on the patterns, Andrew, both yours and those of any potential mate, S or someone else. It's worth spending time on that so you can be certain you aren't repeating past mistakes.


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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" What I lose will be more than offset by what I gain."

Ouch!!!!
Are you talking about your kids?????

I' m gonna follow Don' s actions and stay out of this!
I wish you the best Andrew! ((( hugs )))

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Originally Posted by exquisitetobe
I' m gonna follow Don' s actions and stay out of this!

Um, just to be clear - not what I said nor intended. I was more agreeing with Butterfly and admitting that what I and others have been saying are falling on deaf ears or being condescended to. No sense in repeating the same statements over and over but I totally reserve the right to comment as things progress. I’ve got something similar but still different going on IRL and I’m just not wired to look the other way when I think someone is in danger - even if the someone’s are residual to the primary actors. I also struggle when the fundamental ethics and mission of the board gets turned on its ear.


DonH
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