Advice during separation from WAS

[Mach40]

Been gone 6 weeks.
I am hoping this time away, she may miss me, or remember more positive stuff about us.. One can only hope..

Sounds like you have set an expectation.

Return home "as if" toward her.

I am in a foreign country and have been for 6 weeks. She doesnt live with me. I am just coming home, to my house.. She will pick me up at airport as she insists.

[Mach40]

The more I think about it, the more I think she is just trying to keep our "relationship" stable and non confrontational.
I read some notes, that I took from a very emotional conversation we had.. And to be honest, her heart is hardened and numb to me, to put it lightly. She only needs one thing from me right now, and that is a friend and health care. Thats it. As far as I can tell, because she will keep things bottled up.

[woundedfool]

The more I think about it,

Stop thinking about it!

the more I think she is just trying to keep our "relationship" stable and non confrontational

And to be honest, her heart is hardened and numb to me, to put it lightly.

She only needs one thing from me right now, and that is a friend and health care.

Thats it. As far as I can tell, because she will keep things bottled up.

All of these observations/beliefs are mind reading, which is not in your (or anyone's) skill set.

Believe NONE of what she says and 1/2 of what she does.

[mtb1981]

The more I think about it, the more I think she is just trying to keep our "relationship" stable and non confrontational.
I read some notes, that I took from a very emotional conversation we had.. And to be honest, her heart is hardened and numb to me, to put it lightly. She only needs one thing from me right now, and that is a friend and health care. Thats it. As far as I can tell, because she will keep things bottled up.

Is that what you're willing to settle for? Being her friend and source of healthcare? If so, just continue what you're doing. If you want more than that, you need to drop the rope and go NC. I'd also be finding my own way home from the airport. Even if she "insists"...

[Mach40]

Thnx. I am not a mind reader, thats for sure.
We are in a separation and awaiting the year required to file for divorce. I am not going to shut down healthcare, as it is TRICARE, and its just not a simple matter to do when separated in a state that doesnt even legally observe separation..
Its not costing much, and she always pays her own copays and for meds if out of base clinic...
The friendship thing will end when we get divorced. Only my daughters and grand kids will stay the same, no change with them, ever...

[AnotherStander]

Going to be home in a few days, any words of encouragement? Wife and I have been talking, just business/family stuff, nothing emotional, as I am a few thousand miles away. Been gone 6 weeks.
I am hoping this time away, she may miss me, or remember more positive stuff about us.. One can only hope..

No R talks!!!! Just keep everything light and pleasant. If she initiates an R talk then just listen and validate. Don't argue, don't confront. Your goal right now isn't reconciliation (too soon for that), but it is "to keep the way home paved and smooth". The idea is when she eventually looks back, she should see a strong, independent, confident you and a smooth road on the way back there, no roadblocks.

[Mach40]

Going to be home in a few days, any words of encouragement? Wife and I have been talking, just business/family stuff, nothing emotional, as I am a few thousand miles away. Been gone 6 weeks.
I am hoping this time away, she may miss me, or remember more positive stuff about us.. One can only hope..

No R talks!!!! Just keep everything light and pleasant. If she initiates an R talk then just listen and validate. Don't argue, don't confront. Your goal right now isn't reconciliation (too soon for that), but it is "to keep the way home paved and smooth". The idea is when she eventually looks back, she should see a strong, independent, confident you and a smooth road on the way back there, no roadblocks.

Sounds good. Thanx for the advice.

[sandi2]

Hi Mach, I'm trying to quickly catch up with your sitch.

So, my wife didnt have an affair, but she had a person cross the line with her online, and phone, but she never put a stop to it. I found out and called him out and he unfriended her, blocked and hasnt called for a couple months. She hasnt even tried. He is in another state and a rich investor, and she is a realtor.. But, it was out catalyst.

I'm a bit confused about the timeline. Did this incident happen before she moved out, or after the separation?

Did you wonder why your W would not put a stop to inappropriate conversation from some guy? I mean, you have described her as being a lady, so didn't you wonder why she was involved in any kind of email/phone conversation with another man? I guess I'm asking if neither of you thought anything about having excluded friendships or private friendships with someone else, especially the opposite sex. Oh, another question, how do you know he hasn't called for a couple of months? Please don't see my questions as me calling you out or giving you a hard time, b/c that's not my intent. I'm trying to see the picture here, and hoping you might see some things you, perhaps, didn't see previously.

I have not read all the replies from the other board members, so someone may have already told you that an emotional affair......is indeed, an affair. Perhaps you don't agree, and only consider affairs based on the physical sex. I encourage you to research emotional affairs, Internet affairs, and imaginary affairs. Although these type of affairs may be completely one-sided, or not include skin on skin physical contact, and not have sex with the object of their desire, they are extremely influential on a woman who is unhappy in her MR. By that, I mean that she gets caught up in the fantasy. When her own MR feels dead to her, and she is too depressed to find enough emotional energy to work on it.........she'll often seek some type of "escape". She may turn to romance novels; follow some celebrity way too closely; feed an imaginary romance with a co-worker; going online (various sites that encourage hooking up, whether M or not) just to see if she's attractive enough to get a man's attention/interest. These are just a handful of examples.

To some spouses, this type of behavior may appear harmless, just as long as it doesn't lead to a physical encounter. However, what they may not realize is how that emotional or imaginary affair works in demolishing what's left to their marriage. If she was a woman who held high moral/religious values.......then she may not have been "looking", but after years of living with the drama that can develop with raising kids (and their problems), plus not having the type of intimacy she wanted/needed........I think it can, eventually, leave her vulnerable. I mean, it can leave both spouses vulnerable, right? He may find escape through drinking or porn, while she escapes through fantasizing about a different life with a different guy.

A lot of people have asked about the difference in a WAW and a wayward wife. I think you said you read my first sitch about the WW mindset, so I'll try not to repeat all of it again........however, there is one thing I will repeat. If I had to narrow it down into one sentence, I would say that the differences lie in their agendas at the point of giving the H a bomb drop, or when they actually move out of the home. The WW usually has a hidden agenda that the unsuspecting H & family know nothing about, b/c she isn't going to reveal everything, if she can avoid it. Sometimes, the H will discover suspicious interaction between his W and another man. When asked, she may give some trickled down bits of truth, but it usually is on a level lower than the full truth.

She needs to heal, and she told me her heart is hardened with a big wall around it. Her first marriage took 13 years to recover, no help, counseling etc. After talking for several times, she is actually opening up about her fears of losing me if her heart heals to another woman if we divorce. But, she wants to date non committal men to see help her heal ( can someone explain WTH that means?) She thinks if I date someone, I will fully embrace her and go forward. Right now that would be a rebound, unfair to everyone.

IMHO, hardening of her heart comes from losing respect for the man she's married to. Added to the other drama with her daughter, and apparently, blaming you.........can cause a mountain of resentment. That, in a nut shell, is the makings of a wayward woman. Okay, so she leaves you (without the kids?), and is now telling you that she needs to date other men, in order to heal. But, at the same time, she doesn't want another woman taking her position in your heart. This is the mindset of a WW! She wants to experience the dating life, but she doesn't want to lose her place (as the love of your life) in your heart. She may even tell you to go out and date.......but she wants to keep your emotional dedication for her. Now to the logical thinking male brain, the answer is very simple, right? If she doesn't want you finding better love & happiness with another woman, then she needs to come back home and find healing with you, rather than other men. However, she is not thinking with a logical brain. She is caught up in a fantasy.

One other thing we discussed, more me than her, was how are we going to do the separation. No contact or structured. She was adamant against no contact. But, she will be the one who doesnt rely on me for anything anymore. Unless its an emergency.

IMHO, when a couple separates, it is with the intentions of one of two main reasons. 1) The physical separation is to provide the couple with some personal space & time, and to seek professional/spiritual healing & guidance. The goal is to reconcile in the very near future. It doesn't include dating other people. 2) The separation is intended to maintain certain benefits through being legally married (financially, physical help, emotional....like BFF's, family activities, etc.) while at the same time, giving opportunity (or an excuse) to openly date and/or sleep with others........while they decide whether to reconcile or divorce. It's basically a "wait & see how things go" situation, without getting professional help to heal/reconcile the MR. Reconciliation is Plan B, for the one who wanted to separate in the first place.

Yes when she explained the dating thing, I shook my head and just dealt with it at the time. She said, its just going to non physical, non committal relationships. Just see other people to heal.. I will never understand that. My gut feeling believe her, as I knew her the last time she went through separation with her first husband. We werent dating, but we saw each other for lunches, dinners etc. Platonic.

First of all, the WW who is already talking about dating others, is not going to settle for only platonic dates. I guarantee you that the WW is fantasizing about having passionate sex with some hot guy! Why would she only want non-physical dates/relationships? As for as her leaving her XH and the two of you meeting for dinners, etc., I'd guess she was a WAW in her first M, and did not leave b/c she was wayward. We're talking about two different mindsets. And let me add this.......she may not have been wayward when you married her. The wayward mindset was developed over time.

She has never been promiscuous type.. I knew her before and of course being married to her, she is very much a lady.. But, I hurt her, and she left me with my daughters. But we see each other allot considering, and she doesnt hide her phone calls, text messages, shows them to me I guess to ensure the trust is there.. We spend time at her Mom n Dads, do holidays, B days etc etc.

I understand if you don't want to discuss it at length, but was there something that happened in addition to the verbal abusive with your step-daughter? I mean, the situation with her daughter would be enough to turn her against you, but something isn't adding up, IMHO. Why is showing you her calls/text messages? No, I don't think it's to ensure your trust, b/c she is going to only show what she wants you to see.

Look, I had never been promiscuous in my life! I was the perfect "good girl" type. I was very much a "lady", and a good church-going wife. After years of unhappiness, depression, and dealing with an ill child, I was left feeling as if I was dead inside. Now some may argue that I must not have had high morals, but on the contrary........I could be judgmental of those who fell from grace, which doesn't constitute high morals, but just trying to tell you that church had been my life. I did not change overnight, although my H may have seen it differently. It took time for me to lose respect/admiration for him. The walls of resentment were not built in a few days. I did not wake up one morning and decide I was going to betray my H's trust. That's not to imply that waywardness is beyond the individual's control. Volition is always involved! I mean, what led up to actually stepping over an inappropriate line, was gradual, but the resentment and rebellious attitude had been in place a long time. The irony is that I had a library full of books & tapes on marriage. I thought I knew what a hard-hearted wife was! I thought I knew what a wayward wife was!

I'll have to continue in the next post.

[sandi2]

Continuing from my previous post...................................I only thought I knew what a WW was, but I didn't grasp the development. It was too easy to say these women were not God-fearing ladies, or they were unbelievers. Yes, sin is always the root, but how much does it help to give that answer to a spouse whose MR is falling apart, due to his wayward wife? How did she get this way? Will she change back to the old wife? What can he do?

Whenever a man has a WW who has moved out of the marital home, I would tell him to not trust anything she says, and only believe half of what his eyes actually see.

I know why women date, to get their emotional fix in first, then physical, to put it lightly. Maybe, just maybe she is trying to get her self feeling better about herself after years of depression and uncertainty in our relationship.

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying. I just want you to realize that if she's wayward, then more than likely, she's not going into this dating life the same person as you knew coming out of her first MR.

When she showed me all of her EA stuff, even after I looked at one part of it, it wasnt what I expected an EA to be.. Very vanilla. No sex, no nothing from her. Very lady like. But, he was very much a predator to me as I saw what he was doing. He was catering to her feeling positive, from education to career success. He has the highest of educational degrees from one of the top colleges in the the US. He is very smart, and well spoken.
He did cross the line a couple times, and she immediately shut him down. He did ask to meet up, but in another state, she shot him down.. If a woman was hitting on me like this, and I was in her state of mind, I would have been weak and went.. She didnt.. Maybe she is that .00001% woman, maybe not. But, until crap hits the fan, I will just wait and see what happens once separation paperwork is actually signed.

So, she immediately shut this guy down, whereas, she didn't stop the other inappropriate man? Whatever, let me spell out this way. More than likely, she is not going to show hot-nasty-sex-filled messages from OM to her faithful H. FWIW, my OM could have been described exactly the same as this man. As for your W immediately shutting him down? She either manipulated the messages she showed you, or she has no interest in pursuing further contact with him. B/c when she is turned on by what he is saying........she's not going to shut him down. There is one possibility, but it's a reach. If she is pretending she is this nice lady-like jewel that would slap a man's face if he ever said something inappropriately, then that could be her way of warming up. However, I come closer to believing she used it to fool you. After all, you saw one side of her......the real lady.....and should she discover she needs to ignite Plan B, it wouldn't help if you saw her true colors. Therefore, she's going to keep you from knowing the real guy who makes her hot, and show you the vanilla guy. I know, you are probably thinking that you've known her 30 yrs and I've never even met her. That's true, but if your W is wayward........I, pretty much, have her number.

I do believe my wife. She is a straight shooter.

Currently, you can't afford to believe her. You are describing the wife she once was. I hope some day she'll change back to the woman you knew, but right now, she's not that gal. When I refer to her true colors or showing this new side of herself, I mean that she has changed. You say you know it, but yet, you still talk about her as if she was the same woman you met 30 yrs ago. This woman has had a change of heart/mind. The thing is, it is possible for her to come to her senses and start trying to work her way back to reality. The WW is wrapped up in a world of fantasy, and she doesn't want to deal with her old life, and old M any longer. That's what I want you to understand here. You have to realize she is not straight shooter. Not currently, anyway.

I know she has a hardened heart, is not trusting her heart with me, angry and just doesnt want to trust anyone to the degree of how vulnerable she was when we married. Terrifies her, as she is fearful of a repeat. We have talked. Without counseling , it took years from her first marriage to accept someone in her life.

Why wouldn't she trust her own heart with you? These are things I see some H's say, and I think it is their way of trying to accept what's happened. What have you done to her that invokes such fear she couldn't allow herself to trust anyone? So, she had a rotten first M, and maybe a second M. She's terrified of a repeat........yet, she is anxious to start dating, and has had at least one EA (that you know about)......and she text messages other men.

I think I have the trifecta of wives. WAS, MLC and Depressed..MIL stated she was/has been losing allot of weight, and is waking up every morning with the impending doom, and acutely aware of her life being screwed up( for over a year). She is at the age too for MLC..

A lot of newcomers try to diagnose their W with having WAW syndrome, MLC, depression, and blame anti-depressants or menopause. I'm not saying she doesn't have some of those issues, I'm just saying I don't think they are WAW, MLC, and WW all at the same time. I think you may be trying, like many other LBH's, to figure out what's wrong with her. From what others have told me, they had rather their W be anything except a WW. My response is that WW's can change their minds MUCH faster and go running back home quicker than a WAW or MLCW.

I hope when I go through MLC people recognize it and get me through it..

So, you plan on having a MLC???? I hope you will be able to see it as a transition in life, and not a crisis.

[Mach40]

Hi Mach, I'm trying to quickly catch up with your sitch.

So, my wife didnt have an affair, but she had a person cross the line with her online, and phone, but she never put a stop to it. I found out and called him out and he unfriended her, blocked and hasnt called for a couple months. She hasnt even tried. He is in another state and a rich investor, and she is a realtor.. But, it was out catalyst.

I'm a bit confused about the timeline. Did this incident happen before she moved out, or after the separation?

Did you wonder why your W would not put a stop to inappropriate conversation from some guy? I mean, you have described her as being a lady, so didn't you wonder why she was involved in any kind of email/phone conversation with another man? I guess I'm asking if neither of you thought anything about having excluded friendships or private friendships with someone else, especially the opposite sex. Oh, another question, how do you know he hasn't called for a couple of months? Please don't see my questions as me calling you out or giving you a hard time, b/c that's not my intent. I'm trying to see the picture here, and hoping you might see some things you, perhaps, didn't see previously.

I have not read all the replies from the other board members, so someone may have already told you that an emotional affair......is indeed, an affair. Perhaps you don't agree, and only consider affairs based on the physical sex. I encourage you to research emotional affairs, Internet affairs, and imaginary affairs. Although these type of affairs may be completely one-sided, or not include skin on skin physical contact, and not have sex with the object of their desire, they are extremely influential on a woman who is unhappy in her MR. By that, I mean that she gets caught up in the fantasy. When her own MR feels dead to her, and she is too depressed to find enough emotional energy to work on it.........she'll often seek some type of "escape". She may turn to romance novels; follow some celebrity way too closely; feed an imaginary romance with a co-worker; going online (various sites that encourage hooking up, whether M or not) just to see if she's attractive enough to get a man's attention/interest. These are just a handful of examples.

To some spouses, this type of behavior may appear harmless, just as long as it doesn't lead to a physical encounter. However, what they may not realize is how that emotional or imaginary affair works in demolishing what's left to their marriage. If she was a woman who held high moral/religious values.......then she may not have been "looking", but after years of living with the drama that can develop with raising kids (and their problems), plus not having the type of intimacy she wanted/needed........I think it can, eventually, leave her vulnerable. I mean, it can leave both spouses vulnerable, right? He may find escape through drinking or porn, while she escapes through fantasizing about a different life with a different guy.

A lot of people have asked about the difference in a WAW and a wayward wife. I think you said you read my first sitch about the WW mindset, so I'll try not to repeat all of it again........however, there is one thing I will repeat. If I had to narrow it down into one sentence, I would say that the differences lie in their agendas at the point of giving the H a bomb drop, or when they actually move out of the home. The WW usually has a hidden agenda that the unsuspecting H & family know nothing about, b/c she isn't going to reveal everything, if she can avoid it. Sometimes, the H will discover suspicious interaction between his W and another man. When asked, she may give some trickled down bits of truth, but it usually is on a level lower than the full truth.

She needs to heal, and she told me her heart is hardened with a big wall around it. Her first marriage took 13 years to recover, no help, counseling etc. After talking for several times, she is actually opening up about her fears of losing me if her heart heals to another woman if we divorce. But, she wants to date non committal men to see help her heal ( can someone explain WTH that means?) She thinks if I date someone, I will fully embrace her and go forward. Right now that would be a rebound, unfair to everyone.

IMHO, hardening of her heart comes from losing respect for the man she's married to. Added to the other drama with her daughter, and apparently, blaming you.........can cause a mountain of resentment. That, in a nut shell, is the makings of a wayward woman. Okay, so she leaves you (without the kids?), and is now telling you that she needs to date other men, in order to heal. But, at the same time, she doesn't want another woman taking her position in your heart. This is the mindset of a WW! She wants to experience the dating life, but she doesn't want to lose her place (as the love of your life) in your heart. She may even tell you to go out and date.......but she wants to keep your emotional dedication for her. Now to the logical thinking male brain, the answer is very simple, right? If she doesn't want you finding better love & happiness with another woman, then she needs to come back home and find healing with you, rather than other men. However, she is not thinking with a logical brain. She is caught up in a fantasy.

One other thing we discussed, more me than her, was how are we going to do the separation. No contact or structured. She was adamant against no contact. But, she will be the one who doesnt rely on me for anything anymore. Unless its an emergency.

IMHO, when a couple separates, it is with the intentions of one of two main reasons. 1) The physical separation is to provide the couple with some personal space & time, and to seek professional/spiritual healing & guidance. The goal is to reconcile in the very near future. It doesn't include dating other people. 2) The separation is intended to maintain certain benefits through being legally married (financially, physical help, emotional....like BFF's, family activities, etc.) while at the same time, giving opportunity (or an excuse) to openly date and/or sleep with others........while they decide whether to reconcile or divorce. It's basically a "wait & see how things go" situation, without getting professional help to heal/reconcile the MR. Reconciliation is Plan B, for the one who wanted to separate in the first place.

Yes when she explained the dating thing, I shook my head and just dealt with it at the time. She said, its just going to non physical, non committal relationships. Just see other people to heal.. I will never understand that. My gut feeling believe her, as I knew her the last time she went through separation with her first husband. We werent dating, but we saw each other for lunches, dinners etc. Platonic.

First of all, the WW who is already talking about dating others, is not going to settle for only platonic dates. I guarantee you that the WW is fantasizing about having passionate sex with some hot guy! Why would she only want non-physical dates/relationships? As for as her leaving her XH and the two of you meeting for dinners, etc., I'd guess she was a WAW in her first M, and did not leave b/c she was wayward. We're talking about two different mindsets. And let me add this.......she may not have been wayward when you married her. The wayward mindset was developed over time.

She has never been promiscuous type.. I knew her before and of course being married to her, she is very much a lady.. But, I hurt her, and she left me with my daughters. But we see each other allot considering, and she doesnt hide her phone calls, text messages, shows them to me I guess to ensure the trust is there.. We spend time at her Mom n Dads, do holidays, B days etc etc.

I understand if you don't want to discuss it at length, but was there something that happened in addition to the verbal abusive with your step-daughter? I mean, the situation with her daughter would be enough to turn her against you, but something isn't adding up, IMHO. Why is showing you her calls/text messages? No, I don't think it's to ensure your trust, b/c she is going to only show what she wants you to see.

Look, I had never been promiscuous in my life! I was the perfect "good girl" type. I was very much a "lady", and a good church-going wife. After years of unhappiness, depression, and dealing with an ill child, I was left feeling as if I was dead inside. Now some may argue that I must not have had high morals, but on the contrary........I could be judgmental of those who fell from grace, which doesn't constitute high morals, but just trying to tell you that church had been my life. I did not change overnight, although my H may have seen it differently. It took time for me to lose respect/admiration for him. The walls of resentment were not built in a few days. I did not wake up one morning and decide I was going to betray my H's trust. That's not to imply that waywardness is beyond the individual's control. Volition is always involved! I mean, what led up to actually stepping over an inappropriate line, was gradual, but the resentment and rebellious attitude had been in place a long time. The irony is that I had a library full of books & tapes on marriage. I thought I knew what a hard-hearted wife was! I thought I knew what a wayward wife was!

I'll have to continue in the next post.

The EA happened after she moved out. Its an affair, I agree. She gravitated towards his words after discovery phase, about 2 years ago. He asked her to go on trips, to meet etc, but she chose not to..One of them was over seas, and I know she didnt go due to passport not being stamped. She told me she couldnt do it, because she knew it would end up being seuxual and she felt slimy, etc and just couldnt. She did entertain the lifestyle he protrayed to her, money, homes, travel etc. But when I confronted him, and he blocked her, unfriended her she saw that as a sign of what he really wanted, which was more than the EA she was having with him. She said the way he treated her after unfriending her, blocking her and refusing to text back after the incident was not a good thing in her eyes, like a red flag. Its what she says.
Then, a couple months later, she showed me her phone, no number in her phone, no messages, no facebook, nothing. Thats all I have, I didnt ask or look for that at all. I saw it as a EA, and thats how I have been treating it. To the best of my experience.
I have read extensively on EAs. I see them as what they are, a very serious affair for a woman. Not so much a man, as men are more physical needing, and this affair was her having a relationship with a man after she fired me as husband and left me. Her affair with this guy was pure chance, as he was referred to her by realtor in Boston to invest in properties in Charleston. The realtor works same company. They did VTC with brokers etc and after that, their relationship started. He started the discovery phase about her life, marriage etc and she let it flow...
My wife was extremely faith filled, till our marriage fell apart, and she hasnt been faith filled for a while. She feels God did not help her marriage. Her opinion, her choice.
If my wife was having a physical affair, i would have found out by now, as far as a WW is concerned. She has one medical condition and possibly another, which does make that harder to do. She can, and she is quite capable, but working 6 to 7 days a week to be independent and self sufficient financially takes allot out of her. Anythings possible though.
She did leave me with the the youngest daughter and they live together. Youngest daughter and I are very close.
She is the one that needs to realize she needs to come home and heal with me, I cant tell her that.
I am in IC right now, even though only one session.. Travel makes it difficult. She has stated she wants IC, but, as of yet, I have no idea. I think she is telling me what I want to hear.
My oldest daughter and I fought allot. No physical at all, except the time she hit me.. I didnt hit back. She was a rebel, and belittled her, and tried to control her as she was doing drugs, alcohol and things I didnt approve of. This was her 9th through 11th grade, and when she broke her jaw skateboarding, that all changed. But when I moved back to home from retiring she and I started to get along better. It took time, and after her child was born, that was our catalyst to really get along. People are very happy as to where we are now..