Still married couple from Scandinavia Part 2

[neffer]

I´m following your sitch Ben...

If you dont want her back, why have the conversation ? - why waste time ? just file and enjoy life.. You are so fortunate that you wont have the messy custody battle - Enjoy and move on.

headshot!

[BenB]

Hi LH,

It depends on how she explains that to me an what she says she wants. It's not like I would take her back immediately just because she says she regrets her decision. What is perhaps not clear here is that I have been skeptic about everything this whole time. Only recently I've started hanging out with her from time to time, after consulting with you guys here first.

I am puzzled as to why I would D and move on with my life. Yes of course my posts were for months about my GAL and now that W is back into my life again I will post about that. But look at how many posts those are. I have two threads in total on this forum. Dating from September 2019 until now.

[LH19]

It depends on how she explains that to me an what she says she wants. It's not like I would take her back immediately just because she says she regrets her decision. What is perhaps not clear here is that I have been skeptic about everything this whole time. Only recently I've started hanging out with her from time to time, after consulting with you guys here first.

Fair enough but I think you need to push to see where you stand. Again, the no relationship talk gets over blown IMO. At some point you have to find out where you stand. If you can get rejected and walk and never look back then no harm no foul.

I am puzzled as to why I would D and move on with my life. Yes of course my posts were for months about my GAL and now that W is back into my life again I will post about that. But look at how many posts those are. I have two threads in total on this forum. Dating from September 2019 until now.

I won't speak for Mr.B but what I am gathering is in 95% of the cases you are just prolonging the agony. A stay of execution until she walks again because most of the WWs never get to the root of the issue. We just had two people get bombed again after years of recon. Yes there are people like Neffer who learned hard lessons and was truly remorseful. I know you referred Mummin to the board and his W is as kooky as they come. He has zero chance of leading a normal life with her. I have always believed for a true recon you have to be apart for years and both mutually agree that life is better together then apart.

[Jason88]

(Sorry Job, I still have not posted my thread but I would like to have the chance to offer my advice to Ben)

Ben, I understand why you have not filed for D yet, and I would have done the same if I were in your shoes. You still want to R (even though you do not feel the urge to do so), and you and W have reconnected these past few weeks, so filing for D now would be odd. Either you should have filed months ago, or you should wait a little to see how things go.

I have to agree with Steve on no R talks. Don’t bring up R and let her do it. I think you should make her work harder before getting back with her. Otherwise it would be just too easy for her.

Now, here is the thing : you are now spending quite so time with her every week just like friends do, and W has not even expressed the desire to get back together. As far as I’m concerned I think you are too available and should back off a little to make her try harder.

[SteveLW]

Ben you came here asking if you should have a conversation about "us". You then push back on that and branch into why you stopped DBing (the lump),push back on why you continued to not DB after the lump was benign, and then push back on the not pushing the D to finalized.

I never said to send the D now. What I said was that if you really had no urge to get back together than the finalizing of D envelope would already been sent. The things you are saying are not congruent with each other. I also gave you the advice to set a date for when you would send the envelope. GOALS ARE GOOD.

You are running on instinct here. She emails you about the tumor, you jump right back into playing the role that her H would have played. After it is benign you continued to engage with her despite not wanting to be friend zoned. And you continue to hem-haw on committing to finalizing the D as if you expect some miracle turnaround from her.

We've seen this movie before. WAW wants a D and leaves. LBH starts moving on, and doing what he has to in order to untangle their lives. WAW starts having second thoughts and comes sniffing around.

Do you know which of the LBHs were successful at reconnecting and having their WAW commit to the MR are? Do you think they are the ones that double-downed at that point on DBing principles, or do you think the ones that said "she is showing interest, I can stop DBing!" were successful?

I think you know the answer to this. Just 2 weeks ago we had a LBH whose WAW started to show signs of wanting to come back. He over pursued and chased right back off.

You can DB, or you can follow your instincts. Up to you. I just want you to understand the odds.

[BenB]

Hi Steve,

Thank you for the advice but I have to be able to tell you when I disagree with something. And I will push back until I am convinced otherwise. I hope that makes sense?

The only time I've basically said put DB aside is when we thought she had cancer. The way you read my posts simplifies what I say and I get that the information I give you is bits and pieces and not always the whole story. So completely understand how you would see it that way. I will re read my thread as well and see if I have missed clarifying certain things.

I do not agree the things I am saying aren't congruent but I know you and I have had our disagreements in the past on others things, similar to this. Us staying in touch after finding out the lump was benign was in no way "not DB:ing". For example, she would come over and pick up one of her boxes and move it to the other apartment, I could see how she uses those boxes as an excuse to contact me but there is nothing I could do about that. For weeks or even months, she would come over and pick up something small and stay and talk for a while. Even to this date, I am yet to contact her for any reason except for maybe a letter she has received in the mail. I have at no point suggested to meet up to do something. I have, however, accepted invitations to meet her at times and I have also declined multiple invitations to meet her.

What exactly do you feel would be the DB way of doing the above instead?

What I said was that if you really had no urge to get back together than the finalizing of D envelope would already been sent.

Ok, I understand but the word "urge" seems a bit strong to me but perhaps that is because English is a third language for me. No, now that I am seeing this side of her I am hesitating to send those in. Again, a bit too strong to say I expect some miracle turn around. If you have followed my thread and remember, it was after AS suggested that can wait that I decided to do that. That should hardly imply I expect a miracle turn around, don't you agree?

The only non DB thing that has been suggested her is to talk to her and I just wanted to listen to what everyone thinks about that. The way you write this

"she is showing interest, I can stop DBing!"

tells me that you think I've just forgot about the principles completely and let go. That is not the case. I haven't stopped DBing in every way. That simplifies what I say a lot. I am not planning on pursuing, I am not planning on courting her or showing any interest. A conversation would her could even be a statement from me, reminding her we can't keep hanging out like buddies.

I am and will be very skeptic. This is my life, and the pain I endured for that long, I don't take that lightly. I don't plan on foolishly running back to her arms because she shows some interest.

But I get why it would be perceived that way. And btw I appreciate the advice on setting a date for finalizing. That's not a bad idea.

[AnotherStander]

Hey Ben, for the longest time after S I felt like my only way forward in life was to recon. It was either that or it was all over, I would just limp along for my remaining days until I died lonely, sorry and broken. That was when I was in the fog. When I came out of the fog I started remembering that my XW wasn't the only one that hadn't been happy for a long time. I wasn't either, but I think the difference is she blamed me (or really "us") and I blamed my own state-of-mind. I wasn't happy not because of her, but because I was focusing on all the negative things in my life and letting them bring me low. And now I don't. I still have PLENTY of things that go wrong, but I deal with them and instead of letting them wreck my day I remind myself of all the great stuff in my life too. And I think you've done that too, despite your W leaving and Covid messing with your job you are positive and upbeat, and that's really great to see!

But circling back around to the above, eventually when I "freed myself" I realized I didn't want to recon with my XW because everything was so great before, I wanted to because it would put things back to "normal". And also there was a bit of the need to "win". I mean S and especially D can feel like a loss, so recon would be a win because it would be "proof" that I am worth keeping after all. And when I isolated that particular thought, I realized my whole struggle wasn't S and D, it was with who I was as a person and where my happiness was coming from. Right?

My point is this- at the end of the day you have to really ask yourself why you would even want to continue to have her in your life. What is she bringing to the table? It sounds like very little. I don't think she wants to recon, I think she's bored and you are available so she ties you up to stave off boredom and to keep you from moving on. I wouldn't bother to ask her what she is looking for because almost assuredly she still doesn't know.

If you are OK with being in the friendzone with her then that's fine. But if you are still attached to her and hoping for recon, then your best chance at that would be to stop the friendzone stuff immediately. Don't have a talk with her, just go NC in your actions. It's the only way she will go on the journey of self-exploration that she needs to go on to grow and mature and become ready for a relationship again.

[BenB]

Thank you AS,

I appreciate your thoughts on this. But I have to clarify a few things -

I have no "hope" for anything. I am happy where I am today. I have no expectations.

I will listen to the advice and avoid a conversation for now but I have given a lot of thought to what you say here

at the end of the day you have to really ask yourself why you would even want to continue to have her in your life. What is she bringing to the table? It sounds like very little.

I didn't have any plans on us seeing each other again. No matter what anyone thinks, I wasn't waiting around,hoping she would reach out one day. Her aunt died of breast cancer as did her grand mother, so when she mentioned that, yes, I asked her if she wanted to me to join her to her appointments. That seems to have gotten blown into me running back to comfort her the moment she reached out. I get other LBS have done that in the past, but that is not me.

Since we started hanging out, I will admit, I have enjoyed it. And that is what she would bring to the table. Our mutual humor and our connection. That is the only reason I haven't dismissed the idea of getting back together with her. But I have to clarify - just because I write that, doesn't mean I have decided to go all in. Like I said, I am very skeptic. She would need to prove it to me for me to even consider getting back together.

So when the comments here seem to focus on me holding on to her in hopes of recon or that I am chasing or pursuing her, I have to tell you that it is wrong. If anything, because it takes times away from discussing the situation and focusing on something I'm not struggling with. I am not trying to win her back here. I was considering mentioning or perhaps discussing where I stand with her but even that is not something I "urge" to do or something I consider of great importance. Was just a thought and I'm happy to put that aside.

[LH19]

LOL. Benny so many conflicting opinions.

To simplify without judgement. Know what you want. Find out where you stand. Walk away from what you don't want.

It's really that simple.

[SteveLW]

Hi Steve,

Thank you for the advice but I have to be able to tell you when I disagree with something. And I will push back until I am convinced otherwise. I hope that makes sense?

The only time I've basically said put DB aside is when we thought she had cancer. The way you read my posts simplifies what I say and I get that the information I give you is bits and pieces and not always the whole story. So completely understand how you would see it that way. I will re read my thread as well and see if I have missed clarifying certain things.

I do not agree the things I am saying aren't congruent but I know you and I have had our disagreements in the past on others things, similar to this. Us staying in touch after finding out the lump was benign was in no way "not DB:ing". For example, she would come over and pick up one of her boxes and move it to the other apartment, I could see how she uses those boxes as an excuse to contact me but there is nothing I could do about that. For weeks or even months, she would come over and pick up something small and stay and talk for a while. Even to this date, I am yet to contact her for any reason except for maybe a letter she has received in the mail. I have at no point suggested to meet up to do something. I have, however, accepted invitations to meet her at times and I have also declined multiple invitations to meet her.

What exactly do you feel would be the DB way of doing the above instead?

What I said was that if you really had no urge to get back together than the finalizing of D envelope would already been sent.

Ok, I understand but the word "urge" seems a bit strong to me but perhaps that is because English is a third language for me. No, now that I am seeing this side of her I am hesitating to send those in. Again, a bit too strong to say I expect some miracle turn around. If you have followed my thread and remember, it was after AS suggested that can wait that I decided to do that. That should hardly imply I expect a miracle turn around, don't you agree?

The only non DB thing that has been suggested her is to talk to her and I just wanted to listen to what everyone thinks about that. The way you write this

"she is showing interest, I can stop DBing!"

tells me that you think I've just forgot about the principles completely and let go. That is not the case. I haven't stopped DBing in every way. That simplifies what I say a lot. I am not planning on pursuing, I am not planning on courting her or showing any interest. A conversation would her could even be a statement from me, reminding her we can't keep hanging out like buddies.

I am and will be very skeptic. This is my life, and the pain I endured for that long, I don't take that lightly. I don't plan on foolishly running back to her arms because she shows some interest.

But I get why it would be perceived that way. And btw I appreciate the advice on setting a date for finalizing. That's not a bad idea.

Ben, all this is well and good. I am glad to see you can see how what your are saying wasn't lining up. I think you are making to fine a point on wording, but that is okay. Maybe that is part an parcel of English being a tertiary language for you.

However, I think you are over-confident in a lot of ways, and that is hurting you being able to see the reality of your situation. For instance, you come here asking about having a conversation about "us". That is inherently showing an urge to move things to the next level. I've had a lot of "us" talks in my 51+ years on this earth, and the ones I initiated were all to do one thing: get the R moved on or moved out.

You then talk about not forgetting DB principles, and then post an entire paragraph full of DB principle breaking:

For example, she would come over and pick up one of her boxes and move it to the other apartment, I could see how she uses those boxes as an excuse to contact me but there is nothing I could do about that. For weeks or even months, she would come over and pick up something small and stay and talk for a while. Even to this date, I am yet to contact her for any reason except for maybe a letter she has received in the mail. I have at no point suggested to meet up to do something. I have, however, accepted invitations to meet her at times and I have also declined multiple invitations to meet her.

You asked me what you think DBing would be different than this? EASY!

Setting a date for all her stuff to be out of your house. Not allowing her to use you as a storage facility. To come and go to get "a box" at time as she sees fit. Not be busy with GAL (since you claimed to be a GAL master earlier) that when she came to get her stuff you made it clear that she couldn't stay because you had things to do. By declining all requests of her to meet......or better yet doing as AS says (and I highly highly highly suggest you read AS's post very carefully, studying it, it is gold!) going dark on her. No where in DBing are you to be in that much communication with your WAW, who has moved out and is living on her own!

I also question the fact that you haven't contacted her for any reason. Maybe you have, but I do question if you are being truthful with that. I know how human nature works. I find it hard that she would be contacting you first as often and much as she has without you reciprocating and being the first reach out once in a while.

"Ok, I understand but the word "urge" seems a bit strong to me but perhaps that is because English is a third language for me. No, now that I am seeing this side of her I am hesitating to send those in. Again, a bit too strong to say I expect some miracle turn around. If you have followed my thread and remember, it was after AS suggested that can wait that I decided to do that. That should hardly imply I expect a miracle turn around, don't you agree?"

Here I argue that being her buddy, allowing yourself to be friend-zoned, not making her get all of her stuff out of your place, not sending the envelope in to finalize the D, all of that YES points to you, whether you want to admit it or not, hoping for a miracle turnaround on her part. Heck even the "she had a lump so I put aside DBing" is full of excuses. She has no family here. Etc. TOUGH! That is the choice a person makes when they decide to end their marriage to someone. That they will have to rely on themselves, or someone that isn't their ex-husband (or soon to be) to handle the lumps (sorry couldn't resist!) that life throws at them.

So just based on your posts since the one that that asked if you should have a discussion about "us", I would give your DBing a failing grade. I think it is R2C that likes to say that we DB for the rest of our lives. It isn't something that we pull out to try to save our marriage, and then set aside once we are successful or fail at that endeavour. DBing was not something that should have been set aside, even for her health scare. "Sorry to hear that, please let me know how it turns out."

Anyway, I do not remember butting heads with you in the past, but if we did I can see why. Your idea of DBing is flat-out wrong. Sorry to be blunt. But if you think anything you've done since she reached out to about the lump was solid DBing, I have no other choice but to tell you that simple truth.

So get back on the horse. Go NC as AS says. Words are cheap. Show her through your actions that you won't settle for the friend-zone.

I'll shut up now Ben. Sorry if I hurt your feelings ever, that was never my intent. My whole goal with chiming in to people's threads is to help them through to a healthy and happy future. Whether that future includes their WAS or not.

God bless.