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CWarrior: I have been listening and fixing myself going on four years. I’ve made lists, changed countless behaviors, she is always in to the next thing I’m doing wrong. I think that at some point it’s on her. I’m not saying I won’t continue to improve and try to become a better me, I’m just saying that at some point she has to stop threatening to leave to get what she wants. I’m being to feel manipulated.

And I would respect her as a stay at home partner, but we would need to discuss expectations around that role. I know it’s not me doing half the housework on the weekends so she can play tennis and workout and go to lunch and walks with friends.

And I encouraged her to quit a job to find something she really loved (thinking that would help us, but it hasn’t). But I struggle to do half the chores, have her spend her free time as she sees fit, call me selfish, refuse to work on the marriage, and have me completely support her life style. That isn’t going to work long run.

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So this is crazy. My wife’s mom is more or less abusive towards her dad. For years the behavior was bad but he was able to defend himself. Now he has dementia and he can’t. So I read up on gaslighting and it was so obvious that her mom is doing this that I did share it with my wife. She literally was just on the phone with her parents and was commenting on this exact behavior. She said “I know what it is because I think you do that to me.”

Holy smokes, are you kidding me. I said, I feel the same way, maybe that’s something we can talk about in counseling tomorrow. I’m sure that’s not divorce busting 101, but that happened.

And it was not in an anrgry contemptuous tone. It was more matter of fact, I’m letting you know how I feel - like you have discovered one of my secret thoughts tone.

Her parents came up because her mom reached out to me and asked me for help with something.

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Typical projection. We see this all the time. A cheating walkaway spouse blames the LBS for cheating. Remember, her words and actions should be like water off a duck's back to you. Just do not let it affect you. Be strong emotionally. Like a rock. At least outwardly if not inwardly.


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Geez, it didn’t stop there. After we put the kids to bed, first thing she brings it back up. She said, I think we should talk about that from earlier. I said ok. She asked me why I felt that way. I explained that for the last four years I’ve been making changes and ever time I make a change she brings something else up and that some of the things don’t align with how i see myself. So either I’m incredibly un-self-aware or something else is going on. I asked her why she felt the way she did and she said because I turn every situation around and make her the bad guy. She asked where i learned about it and i said a book. I asked her the same and she said an article on Facebook. She then shut down the conversation, said she was getting mad and didn’t want to talk about it anymore and that we could talk about it more in MC tomorrow. I asked her why she was angry and she said she felt that I baited her. I said I could understand how she could feel that way but that I was trying to help, though I could understand how she felt.

That was the end of that convo. We then watched a little TV, I went up to bed and she said she wasn’t tired and stayed downstairs. She seemed pretty pissed. I feel like i want to go down and check on her, that’s what I would want someone to do for me, but I’m just going to go to sleep.

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I forgot to add that in one MC session, maybe our last, I expressed concern that i would end up like her dad and that I had a fear of her treating me that way I see her mom treat her dad. When she accused me of covertly bringing up the gaslighting she mentioned that as well. I said it was possible that subconsciously my mind brought it up for that reason but that I didn’t have a hidden agenda.

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Scotty B,

You're in a tough spot man. I made a lot of changes during the 1.5 years we were reconciling and I think it pisses them off because one they don't trust it and two it fuchs with narrative. When she says she's the bad guy she is right now because she wants and you are making changes and trying to save the marriage.

I

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So I’m reading NMMNG and I got to a section about how nice guys are bad Enders. Meaning they hold on to a relationship that is unhealthy too long and it makes me ask myself is that what I’m doing? Few books have tied me in knots like this one. It really hits me repeatedly in my core and makes me question things and look at things through a different lens. I’m going to have to reread the whole book and really think through what this means to me, who I am, who I want to be.

And I’ve never believed marriage should end. I believe in commitment, I believe that family is better for the kids and for grandkids. I believe in a shared history. But I’m just thinking, maybe I’m holding on to something that just isn’t healthy and just isn’t realistic. I’m really torn in knots.

Marriage counseling is going to be real tough in 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by ScottB
So I’m reading NMMNG and I got to a section about how nice guys are bad Enders. Meaning they hold on to a relationship that is unhealthy too long and it makes me ask myself is that what I’m doing? Few books have tied me in knots like this one. It really hits me repeatedly in my core and makes me question things and look at things through a different lens. I’m going to have to reread the whole book and really think through what this means to me, who I am, who I want to be.

And I’ve never believed marriage should end. I believe in commitment, I believe that family is better for the kids and for grandkids. I believe in a shared history. But I’m just thinking, maybe I’m holding on to something that just isn’t healthy and just isn’t realistic. I’m really torn in knots.

Marriage counseling is going to be real tough in 30 minutes.


I agree that commitment is important, and living up to commitments is important. And I am morally opposed to D, which is why I spend so much time on this forum. I think the book is really talking about non-MR Rs, though certain MRs certainly could fit.

But holding on for the wrong reasons is bad too. I was asked by some of the experts I discussed things with "Why do you want to save this marriage?" Have you answered that question? I don't want to give the answers I gave because I don't want to poison the well. But it is a good exercise.

Can you articulate for us why you are trying to save your marriage?


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Originally Posted by ScottB
Geez, it didn’t stop there. After we put the kids to bed, first thing she brings it back up. She said, I think we should talk about that from earlier. I said ok. She asked me why I felt that way. I explained that for the last four years I’ve been making changes and ever time I make a change she brings something else up and that some of the things don’t align with how i see myself. So either I’m incredibly un-self-aware or something else is going on. I asked her why she felt the way she did and she said because I turn every situation around and make her the bad guy. She asked where i learned about it and i said a book. I asked her the same and she said an article on Facebook. She then shut down the conversation, said she was getting mad and didn’t want to talk about it anymore and that we could talk about it more in MC tomorrow. I asked her why she was angry and she said she felt that I baited her. I said I could understand how she could feel that way but that I was trying to help, though I could understand how she felt.

That was the end of that convo. We then watched a little TV, I went up to bed and she said she wasn’t tired and stayed downstairs. She seemed pretty pissed. I feel like i want to go down and check on her, that’s what I would want someone to do for me, but I’m just going to go to sleep.



You handled this pretty well. However, I would try to do less back-and-forth and more listening, validating, and deflecting. Don't ask her why she felt that way. The why doesn't matter. That is a cheeseless tunnel. Also, you need to be the one to shutdown conversations. "Sorry, I have some things I need to do." or "This is a lot to process, I need some time to consider everything." Stop being the "bad ender" you read about in the book.

Scott, a lot of this is about being an alpha! I am still seeing a lot of beta behavior here. Attraction for women starts with respect. So stop worrying about her being pissed. So what! She needs to be pissed. Her anger should be as much about herself as it is you. And truth be told, it probably is. But when she is mad don't try to fix it. That isn't your job.


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Scotty B,

You are not wrong in your beliefs. However you must keep in mind it takes two to make a marriage work.

You are also correct that a healthy man who loves and values himself would not stay in your situation for 4 years. He would try to work things out but is willing to walk away from a relationship that is not working for him. Like most people who find this place you are not ready yet because you are still acting out of fear. As you continue to work on yourself you will get stronger and then will no longer act based on fear and will act upon what is in your best interest.

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