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I'm so sorry hun. As others have said, you didn't blow it. Stop blaming yourself for your W having an affair. See how silly it sounds when it's phrased like that? I had someone frame it the same way for me and it really made me pause. It was helpful.

There is no way to know that if you had acted differently if WW would have slowly left OP or not. We can sit here and speculate that it might have worked - it might have not worked - but you really don't know. What we do know is that A) you will be okay and B) none of this is your fault, and you've been carrying it for a very, very long time.

I think it's time to go back to focusing on KG and only KG. You can call it "going dark", you can call it a break-up - but whatever you call it, I think you need to really pause and stop being sucked in. She is taking all of your energy and it's not a fair exchange because you're not getting anything out of it.

You're in IC now, so maybe you can really focus on healing yourself. It's a trauma in a way, and healing is needed. Some folks call it "GAL", but there is so much more to it than that. It's not just go out and forget and stay busy - you have to do some sitting with the pain, acknowledging it, and releasing it. It takes time.

You are allowed to either be done with WW or to still hold out hope for a future. That's totally your call and either is valid. But if you're holding out hope remember that the time for this is not now. It's likely not 6 months from now. Really give her the space to make her other situation real. Remove yourself from it completely.

The cake-eating in this situation is one of the more intense I've seen. If you want to change the dynamic it has to be from you because I have no doubt she'll be back in touch with you if she hasn't already. You have the power to drive your own healing here.

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Originally Posted by KristinG
... a relationship talk ensued. I asked if she was still speaking with OW. She said yes, everyday. I got emotional and told her that I am trying to have patience, but that we will never work as long as OW is in the picture. I told her exactly what I need to make this work.

Her head is still all over the place. She says that it's getting easier to not talk to OW, but that she feels guilty for hurting her. That she has this need to check in on her everyday to make sure that she is ok. I'm not proud, but I let my frustration at the whole situation show. It hurts to hear her tell me about her feelings for OW. It is like she feels like I should be thankful that she is here and working on us (in her mind she's working on us). I told her we aren't working on anything as long as OW is in the picture. I told her that she's been having her cake and I'm done serving my share...


Hey Kristin - I'm so sorry to hear of your latest developments. Don't be so hard on yourself - these situations are extremely difficult even for the most patient of us. From what I am reading here, breaking contact with the OP is akin to breaking an addiction. Remember that, for your own sake. You did nothing wrong here, you stood up for yourself and you made your boundaries crystal clear. Good for you!

Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do or say to speed up this process. I know what it is like to want to see progress, to want to see the good in people, to believe that things are improving.

I believe this is not a setback, but a pause. A moment for you to reflect on how you want to go forward. I say this because I also have had many moments like this in the past 1.5 years.

Originally Posted by unchien

This morning she was distant and cold. Left for work. She text me to let me know she made it work and she won't be bothering me anymore. I replied that I love her and that I hope she fights for us and works through it. She said that she feels it's best to just move our separate ways. Nothing is ever going to be good enough and that I deserve better. Ended with a "have a great life". I sent her a final message in return stating that I understand if she feels that way, she is enough and the one I want to spend my life with, but that with things as they currently are we will never be able to make it work. Gosh, this s*cks. I know I'm still going to be ok, but I would be lying if I said that I didn't have my hopes up and put expectations on reconciliation. I feel like an idiot.

KG


She is upset that you stood up for yourself and enforced your boundary.

Don't believe the words, if I am not mistaken from your previous posts, she has said these things to you before. We all say things in the moment based on our emotions, but when our emotions settle we may regret those things. Try to see if you can step out of yourself, and practice not reacting to what she says in the moment. It took me awhile to do this, I tripped up a lot of times, but I got better at just listening and validating.

One other thing. If at all possible, try to avoid R talks. Until or unless she is back fully committed to the R, R talks are only going to cause you more pain. It took me a long time to figure this out. You don't need more pain at this point, you want to be as steady and even as you can (considering the circumstances).

Take care, Kristin - stay strong smile

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She is upset that you stood up for yourself and enforced your boundary.


Exactly right. My WAW controlled and manipulated me through four weeks of begging and crying and pleading. The day I stood up for myself (boxed up her drawers and drawers of makeup and took it to her when I picked the kids up) she went berserk.

I think she thought I was going to move out so she could move back in. I finally stood up for myself and showed her that I would start moving on with my life, and because she lost the control - she went crazy. Refused to take her stuff out of my car, so I just left with the children. Then she sent a bunch of texts saying because I was now “obviously throwing her out”, she was going to the house to collect a whole bunch of stuff. I told her not to go in the house (she had signed an assurance) and she went crazy again.

The problem with these narcissists is that they are used to a position in the relationship where they can manipulate you into what they want. As you get stronger and put boundaries in place, it gets very challenging for them.

All the “have a great life” comments are designed to manipulate you back into a position of submission where they win back control. I think you handled it really well. Just say it’s not what you want, but you’ll respect the decision. This is also incredibly hard for them, because what they are looking for in comments such as “have a great life” is a response from you where they can justify their decision to themselves.

Search google for nKNyFSLJy6o and you’ll find three videos about transactional analysis on YouTube. I think they’ll help you to understand what’s going on here. You need to stay calmly in healthy adult despite the attempts to manipulate you down into child. It’s really hard.

You’re doing great.

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Hey guys and gals and thanks for support and feedback. I'll respond to some it soon, but first I just wanted to journal a little.

The aftermath of my emotional breakdown with ww on Thursday night left me feeling regretful all day on Friday. I definitely don't like myself when I react emotionally instead of staying calm and quiet. Friday evening WW said that she did not, in fact, want to go our separate ways. She said that she is feeling like it is pointless and that she is trying so hard but doesn't think that I see or appreciate her hard work. She asked me to come over to stay with her and that she wants me with her always. I went.

I wish I could be stronger and just walk away. I'm so tired at this point, but I also know that I still haven't reached that point of "ok, I'm done with this. I don't want you anymore". Saturday and Sunday I had plans with friends and family all day and night on both days. I got home (to her place) late on Saturday and she was already asleep. Last night we went out with some friends when I got back into town. She was withdrawn and seemed to be in her head about some things. When we got home, she wanted to talk (oh shiz, not again). This time, however, I remained very calm and really focused on listening and validating.

She seems so tired. She wants "us" and our future. One thing that is eating at her is the fear that the intimacy we used to have will never come back. She said she doesn't even want to kiss me and that she knows I need intimacy and wants me to be happy. I tried to show her that I understand her fears, and that I am certain if AP was truly out of the picture, her feelings might start to change on that front. Chemical releases of affair highs and so on and so forth. I have explained these to her in the past and she thinks it's just one arbitrary study and all a bunch of hogwash. It does hurt that she kept saying that she was finally feeling like we were getting somewhere and she was finding it easier to let go of AP before my emotional reactions the other night. Since that night, she said that she can't feel that way about me and that her feelings have moved back toward AP. Just journaling. These things obviously hurt to hear, but I am level headed enough to know that she is clearly still in delusional land in her head. Part of me feels like she was subconsciously looking for a reason to say "Well, I tried and it just didn't work with KG. My feelings for AP are so real and true". WW also said she wants for me to fight for us - that she needs to feel like I really want her. WW has expressed a good deal of shame and not feeling like she deserves either one of us.

So here is where I am ladies and gents. Living in limbo, learning along the way. I am planning on working with IC to prepare myself for either outcome.

Thank you all so much for supporting this journey along with me.

KG


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Hi KG,

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right? Think of how f-ing strong you are going to be on the back side of this wink

Tons of support and love your way, and a few thoughts...

Originally Posted by KristinG
One thing that is eating at her is the fear that the intimacy we used to have will never come back. She said she doesn't even want to kiss me and that she knows I need intimacy and wants me to be happy. I tried to show her that I understand her fears, and that I am certain if AP was truly out of the picture, her feelings might start to change on that front. Chemical releases of affair highs and so on and so forth. I have explained these to her in the past and she thinks it's just one arbitrary study and all a bunch of hogwash.

I had an interesting insight via a conversation I had with H last night. He says all the same stuff-- this is all hogwash, arbitrary, gets angry when I bring up studies or similar situations. Last night we were talking about how he might end it with AP and I read him a passage from Esther Perel's book about affairs and the chapter about the APs. She describes a scenario where the H had been in a 7-yr affair with a much younger woman and how he was able to set her free *because* he loved her. There was a line that said he had been stealing years of her fertility that she wouldn't get back. My H totally glommed onto that... well in my case AP doesn't want kids (sure) so this really doesn't apply.

Then he said he was having a hard time here because every time we talk about another situation, or read about commonalities or studies or whatever, he will latch onto something that doesn't quite fit, and then uses that to question the fit of the entire construct. He realizes he's doing this, but then also said to me that he feels *I* don't get it, that I am trying to reduce his experience to a cliche in a book or a piece of data in a study and it feels like I don't understand him or want to understand him. That (this was in a raised voice) until I understood that no one in the world has ever been in this exact same situation as the three of us are then he just can't talk to me. It all of a sudden came to me that he's been trying to tell me this for a long time. He keeps pushing on how he feels and dismissing the data because he wants to be heard and that it is invalidating and probably demeaning to feel like I'm just shoving him in a box of sad 40 year old cheaters who are at the mercy of chemicals flooding their brains. I feel like I've been understanding where he is intellectually, and also it is easier (of course) to think about his love for AP as a series of dopamine hits and a fantasy... but for him it is real and his lived experience.

So maybe... your W is in a same place? Listening and validating so she feels heard and understood? She doesn't want you to solve her problem (telling her don't worry, the studies all say...) but wants to know you get it? And you're scared too? (I *really* need to learn to do better here. The MC we are seeing right now for discernment called us both out and said he thinks we're both good at mouthing the words of validation but we aren't actually trying to listen and understand the other person. Ouch... but too true.)

Originally Posted by KristinG
It does hurt that she kept saying that she was finally feeling like we were getting somewhere and she was finding it easier to let go of AP before my emotional reactions the other night. Since that night, she said that she can't feel that way about me and that her feelings have moved back toward AP. Just journaling. These things obviously hurt to hear, but I am level headed enough to know that she is clearly still in delusional land in her head. Part of me feels like she was subconsciously looking for a reason to say "Well, I tried and it just didn't work with KG. My feelings for AP are so real and true". WW also said she wants for me to fight for us - that she needs to feel like I really want her. WW has expressed a good deal of shame and not feeling like she deserves either one of us.

Not fair of her to put this back on you. Glad you aren't letting yourself get pulled into her crazytown. You're not allowed to be emotional in this? C'mon. That is totally ridiculous. Of *course* she feels crappy. Of *course* she is tired and ashamed and emotionally spent. SO ARE YOU! If she really wants to try to make this work she is going to have to have some empathy for where YOU are in all of this, not just focus on her own pain and get frustrated when you're not responding quickly enough to her overtures, not making her feel wanted enough (this is a long-standing major issue for my H too).

It sounds to me... she just isn't mentally quite there yet to fully commit to R. Your plan sounds right... continue to detach and prepare yourself to be just fine no matter the outcome. You know it is true. You are strong and funny and wise and kind. You *are* and have been fighting for your M for all this time. Don't let her needs distract you from what you know to be right and what you need to do for you.


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Kristin, she simply is not in a position to reconcile yet. I'm not sure she's even begun the work she needs to do on herself. I really don't think she has.

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She said that she is feeling like it is pointless and that she is trying so hard but doesn't think that I see or appreciate her hard work.


That is quite a display of immaturity. She HAD AN AFFAIR!!! And she expects you to acknowledge her one or two weeks of minimal effort and applaud her and appreciate her for it? PLEASE! Again, she has a lot of work she needs to do and you really need to give her time and space to do it.

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She asked me to come over to stay with her and that she wants me with her always. I went.


For your sake and her sake, don't go anymore. You both need time and space to reflect and do some work. You're just being good ol' reliable Plan B to her. I know it's hard not to get drawn in, but you've got to resist.

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I wish I could be stronger and just walk away. I'm so tired at this point, but I also know that I still haven't reached that point of "ok, I'm done with this. I don't want you anymore".


It's not a matter of you not wanting her anymore. If you want her then you will do the right thing and let her go for now. Either you be strong now or remain stuck for a very long time.

Quote
She said she doesn't even want to kiss me and that she knows I need intimacy and wants me to be happy. I tried to show her that I understand her fears, and that I am certain if AP was truly out of the picture, her feelings might start to change on that front. Chemical releases of affair highs and so on and so forth. I have explained these to her in the past and she thinks it's just one arbitrary study and all a bunch of hogwash.


Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Not explanations.

Quote
It does hurt that she kept saying that she was finally feeling like we were getting somewhere and she was finding it easier to let go of AP before my emotional reactions the other night. Since that night, she said that she can't feel that way about me and that her feelings have moved back toward AP.


She's controlling and manipulating you.

Quote
WW also said she wants for me to fight for us - that she needs to feel like I really want her. WW has expressed a good deal of shame and not feeling like she deserves either one of us.


Forget shame, what she needs to feel is remorse. She can feel shame while still feeling JUSTIFIED, which she probably does. She likely sees this as your fault. The LAST thing you want to do is pursue her. She wants YOU to fight? She's the one that left you and had an affair! SHE needs to be doing the pursuing! YOU are the prize, you are the loyal spouse. She's the lying cheater, she's the one that needs to repent and work on herself and pursue you.

PLEASE try to understand all of this. You're caught in a very toxic dynamic that is eating you alive and you need to break out of it. If you want to save your R and save yourself then first you must let go of her.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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KG ~

These things are rough. Your WW is baiting you into emotional responses. Focus on detachment and validation.

WAS's know how to push all the buttons to get us to respond. They attack, put us on the defensive, and we can't help falling all over ourselves to respond. And it only tends to cement the existing status quo. We share our emotions and they take them and distort them and use them against us.

You can choose to take the bait. Or you can choose not to bite. She will likely respond by throwing more and more bait out there. It's not easy to do. Next time you see bait tossed into the water, try leaving it alone. Is it an urgent matter that needs resolution, or is she baiting you into a toxic interaction?

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Hey DB fam. Both AS and May are correct - I do not think my ww is in a place to reconcile yet. I made the all too familiar mistake of giving myself too much hope and too many expectations based on words and a few actions.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander


Forget shame, what she needs to feel is remorse.



I think the remorse portion will take a long time to come, if ever. AS I know that you feel as though I need to walk away and go dark. I completely appreciate everything you have contributed on my situation. It's all very hard to process, but I like your directness and how you challenge my thinking. It helps me prepare for whatever might happen and not get too lost in mind reading.

Currently, in my sitch, ww and I are still working on things. No "R" talks in the past couple of days. She is still pursing and wanting to spend every night together as a family. Even though we don't live together, I have stayed at her house almost every night since the beginning of the year. I have made plans with friends for one night this week as a continuance of my 180s and changes since BD#1 and move out. Previously, I rarely went out without ww and very rarely made time for only myself with my own set of friends outside of MR. The GAL has been helpful to me, and made me a stronger, more confident person. I am focused on keeping my expectations at nil. Emotional spirals and thoughts are not healthy for me, and I need to continue to focus on building my own life. I absolutely enjoy spending time with her, but ultimately it's the "I don't need to be with you, I want to be with you" phrase that resonates. For the moment, I'm enjoying the present and not thinking of any future.

KG


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander


Forget shame, what she needs to feel is remorse.

She also needs to feel the fear of loosing you.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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Hey guys. I have been a little M.I.A. for the last week and just needed a breather. I feel like it is a good idea to take a few days away from the forum to recharge mentally.

Quick update.

WW wants to do NC/limited contact. She claims this is NOT to be with OW. I handled it as calmly and rationally as I could. Water off a duck's back. I told her that I will respect what she wants, and that she knows my desires if anything changes for her. WW kept reiterating that she feels she has to pay some sort of penance for hurting me and that she also wants these things (NC) from OW. It's almost like she wants to put herself into self-imposed exile.

I don't know how I feel but I'm afraid it could all just be a reason so that she and OW can be together. I'm learning to let go either way. I know in my heart I cannot control what she does. In my heart, I have done everything I can do to save us. She has to want the same things.

The only time I got a tad bit emotional was when WW told me that OW said that she had never given me (the faithful wife) time to move on from our marriage. I don't know why, but it enraged me. I did not express the rage and kept that awful emo monster in her cage. I handled all of it pretty well - cried a little, told her my fear of when I respect her decision and don't respond to her that she will think I have given up on us. Silly fear, but valid. I hope you are all doing well and I will try and catch up tonight and tomorrow.

KG


LBW 32 - me
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