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Originally Posted by may22


I guess that the big question is if it is possible at all for him to return to the M in his heart if he cuts off the A but doesn’t suffer the consequences of his choices and losing me/time with kids/etc etc. I know it has to be his decision, it can’t be something he feels forced into at all, which is kind of tricky right now since he definitely thinks that to be the case. Also, if I'm teaching him he can treat me with disrespect by allowing this treatment today and if that will persist in the long term... I guess I'm holding onto the idea that once we both decide to work on the M and she's out of the picture, things are going to have to change.



So much of this ^^^ May. I have struggled with this as well. I'm discovering that I have a need to make sure we separate on my terms (control issue?). For example, if I tell her to leave me alone and go be with her girlfriend in a angry and fed up way, she will seem remorseful and pursue to get me back. I allow this, go back into the picture, and the cycle repeats. When I get emotional and express hurt and tell her to leave me alone, she seems angry and irritated at me which makes me feel like garbage and feel as though I can't leave. I give those examples because, deep down, I feel like if the wayward doesn't feel that loss and feel the consequences that we are teaching them that we will be there no matter what they do. We're breeding disrespect. We'll see where the cards fall with our relationships, but I am learning I cannot control any outcome with my emotions. REALLY trying to reign that in and stay calm. I think if we can let go of enough of the rope, they will hang themselves (so to speak). The trick is detaching enough that, while you empathize and understand their pain, you're not affected by it.

You are such an amazing woman and I know that H must be completely off his rocker to be so confused. None of this is on you, May. Keep your level head and take it one day at a time.

KG


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we are essentially doing the opposite of DBing. We are handing them our power. They become the focus and they have the control over what happens next. DB is about letting them go (they asked for that)


This. My WAH wanted out and made it crystal clear by moving out. Got it. I then DB'd for 7 months and got nowhere because there is OW. Filing for D made me feel powerful (my teens supported me). For once in this terrible situation I was in control of what happened to me. I might not like it but I am running my life now not him. My H wants to be free then so be it. Can't wait until my court date where he has to start paying me temporary support vs paying whatever he feels like paying me. S19 says he's not going to like being told what to pay. Oh well not my problem.

My L is supposed to get me a court date today or tomorrow. Let the games begin. smile

Last edited by kas99; 01/21/20 09:04 PM.
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I hate this so much. Just wanted to clarify that. As much as I wanted to save my M I realize now that I can't. There is no M to save at this point. I'm at his house twice a day to get D14 and I see how much he's home and the lies he's telling her. His house is a revolving door. He comes home, makes sure she's eaten then leaves again. Comes home to throw me off the track but leaves again. S19 goes over there at random times and has the same experience. H thinks he is so clever and that none of us are the wiser. I've decided I'd rather rip off the bandaid and D him than sacrifice my dignity one more minute. In fact right now it kills me that he's sitting over there all smug thinking I'm a doormat. In my case I've got kids watching me too. Sometimes I say dumb R things and I see the disapproving looks on their faces. They know I'm being treated like crap and they want to see me fight back so you know what that is what I'm doing.....but I hate it.

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Originally Posted by may22
Unchien... I don't know. Literally no one who knows my H would ever describe him as a stereotypical nice guy in a million years. I read more about NGS and I think there are a few things that do resonate-- he really cares what other people think of him; he tends to get resentful and takes things personally; he has difficulty asking for help. His resentment can come out in some passive aggressive behaviors like sarcasm and rude comments. However, he is NOT afraid of conflict-- he is more of a pot stirrer and is very comfortable with arguing and likes to play devil's advocate just to see what happens in conversations. A lot of our conflict and my resentment towards him actually stemmed from him making decisions that I saw as selfish-- choices that were things he wanted to do but didn't necessarily really think of me or the kids.

may ~ I agree with Blu. I was seeing things through my own lens here.

Your H shares *some* of the typical NGS traits. But the labels don't really matter. Ultimately he has made some decisions driven by his underlying thoughts/attitudes/issues (whatever they are, and it doesn't really matter). I tend to think these situations boil down to whether the WAS (AND LBS) are motivated enough to address their own individual issues. If not, the relationship issues will manifest in some other way (either repeated behavior, or some different, unhealthy, behavior).

I thought I would share a post from LH19 awhile back. I draw a lot of personal strength from this one as it makes sure I focus on me. Not sure if it will resonate for you.

Originally Posted by LH19
If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

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Originally Posted by may22
I am willing to put up with far more than I ever believed I would through all of this... but for me so much of all of this is wrapped up in my kids and my overwhelming fear of hurting them or losing this precious, precious time with them when they are little and still so want to be with me, and hug me and cuddle with me and tell me all their secrets. I know this won’t last long and the thought of H taking part of that away from me fills me with fear and fury.


T H I S. This is EXACTLY how I feel. im realizing that I don’t think I’ve made that totally clear in my own posts, how big a part of the whole thing this is for me. And the longer this goes on. As I creep slowly forward, forward toward acceptance of the end of my marriage, I wonder if there is much of anything else here that I’m afraid of losing. Not sure that’s helpful at all. But I wanted to let you know how much I relate to that feeling in regards to the kids. I think all parents feel that to some degree, but definitely some more than others.

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May your kids are young and your H is still there (for now). I'm not sure what I'd do if I were in your shoes.

(((hugs)))

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I also second what Blu said about the labels - choosing a label so it goes with out narrative. This is a quote from Esther Perel : “Our empathy seeks a narrative so that we may try to organize the chaos. We ponder amateurish diagnoses for our own sanity.”

Ultimately we have to put the focus on ourselves. Like Blu said, what do we want?

Adding to LH’s quote, I would say yes, all of that but most importantly is the LBS’s relationship with him/herself. It doesn’t matter if he/she wants all of those things if the LBS cannot face his/her demons and come out of the other side a better person first.

Kids- try to let go a little on that front. I have a lot of fear in this area also, but know that you can only do the best you can do with what you can control. Your daughters are lucky that both of you are good parents, and if down the road you do end up spending less time with them, remember that it’s the quality that counts. For every second you are not there, I’m sure you will be even the better mom for every second you’re with them.


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Hi everyone,

Just an update as we just came back from MC. The MC started by re-asking us where we both were in terms of the three choices-- status quo, work on M, S/D. H talked a lot about the negatives of S/D-- hurting kids, hurting me, hurting others like his mom, finances, etc. The negative of working on the M is that he feels like he is going to really hurt someone he cares about (AP) and that he is giving up something/someone really important to him that he is afraid he won't find again with me. He said quasi-seriously that the status quo worked OK for him, but he knows that isn't an option. The MC said OK, it sounds like your options in order are status quo, work n M, then S/D last. (H ho-hummed a little about that but MC said that is what he heard and H accepted it.)

H also went on a tangent of feeling like no-one really understood or cared to understand how deeply he felt for this person, that I kept dismissing it (or if he talked about it too much, he saw that it was hurting me so backed off) but he wanted someone (me) to just listen and believe him. That giving her up is going to feel like a friend died or worse and he will have to mourn. MC asked me to not put up a wall when H wanted to talk about his feelings for her and to listen, even though it feels wrong and bad.

(Side note here-- hearing him say all this made me feel so strongly, again, that he DOES have to go in order to test out his R with the AP. In his mind it is this perfect thing and I think he'll always hold a candle for her in his heart. The thing is that because it is long distance it would take a loooong time to get to a place where he might finally understand that the limerence he is feeling right now doesn't last forever. A M2.0 with me (or any real LTR with any real person, for that matter) will never match up with the idealized fantasy he has in his head with AP.)

MC said that we keep rehashing how we got here and while some of that is important, he feels that H especially keeps skipping us forward into issues that really belong in true marriage counseling, not in trying to decide whether or not to stay together. For instance, I don't necessarily need to truly grasp the depth of H's feelings for her more than I know right now if we're going to S. We don't need to work on our sex life or spend time figuring out why I had low desire towards him if we are going to S. It is ok to have the fears that it would go back to where it was before and to have those issues as legitimate issues in trying to decide if we want to stay together or not, but we don't need to actually be working on them right now.

So. Same basic place. H told me on the way home he WANTS to have everything in his life with me/kids/house/finances etc as it is PLUS AP to be in love with. I said that isn't going to happen. He is still thinking/wanting/wishing it could. I am just so blown away by this. He also said he doesn't think I really was/am "in love" with him and if he really believed that, we wouldn't be here today.

But, other things. A few days ago he asked to move back into the MBR and I said why. He said he wants to try, plus it is way more comfortable. I just looked at him. Then he said the kids and re-used my argument from before that we weren't ready to tell the kids yet and they'd figure it out if he kept sleeping in the office. I said fine (nothing like having your own argument thrown back in your face). And yes, we did have sex again. Whoops. He initiated. (He said in MC that the recent sex we've been having is just sex, not romantic, eye-contact ML. So it is. I'm still not sorry.)

He also put his wedding ring back on yesterday. It has been on and off for the entire 2 years of the affair (now that I think about it-- he said because of surfing and yoga but I'm sure the A came into play) but he had taken it off before his November trip and hasn't put it back on since.

And, he's been gung-ho about planning the summer trip that I've made crystal clear isn't happening if we are S, asking me for input on elements.

I'm still just trying to focus on me, continue to work on detaching (kind of stalled to be honest), a big part of me just trying to get through these next couple of weeks to his next trip and trying not to put any stock into what he's saying or doing. The MC thinks I need to take focus off of the trip but I don't think I can. I said today that if he goes with the status quo he isn't moving back into our house and H got all dramatic, WHAT?!?? Oh ho ho. And rubbed his face in his hands for awhile.

I can tell the MC is trying to make eyes at me to chill out, take off the pressure, stop setting semi-arbitrary deadlines, listen to H and let him express how he feels even if it is painful. He said explicitly to me that I need to stop coming across like I'm telling H what I want him to do (there comes that control thing again... this is harder than I thought) and if I want to stay married he strongly suggests I stop telling him the summer trip won't happen if we S or D. He definitely tried to cut me off before I got out the part where H gets kicked out of the house upon his return.

Originally Posted by KristinG
I give those examples because, deep down, I feel like if the wayward doesn't feel that loss and feel the consequences that we are teaching them that we will be there no matter what they do. We're breeding disrespect. We'll see where the cards fall with our relationships, but I am learning I cannot control any outcome with my emotions. REALLY trying to reign that in and stay calm. I think if we can let go of enough of the rope, they will hang themselves (so to speak). The trick is detaching enough that, while you empathize and understand their pain, you're not affected by it.
KG

Same same, sister. After today's session with the MC, I'm feeling again that I've given my H all the power here and the only way to take it back is to tell him to go. I think I am getting to the place where I will be truly OK if he does. And the control thing does really resonate with me too-- glad that the MC is calling me out on it since in my head I'm being all healthy boundary-driven. ha! At least we're learning about ourselves, right?

Originally Posted by kas99
I hate this so much. Just wanted to clarify that. As much as I wanted to save my M I realize now that I can't. There is no M to save at this point.

(((kas))) I'm trying to come to terms with this too. That my H just really doesn't have those feelings for me anymore. Our M is over and our choices now are to build a new R or go our separate ways. And I can only control me. not him.

Originally Posted by unchien

I thought I would share a post from LH19 awhile back. I draw a lot of personal strength from this one as it makes sure I focus on me. Not sure if it will resonate for you.

Hope you are all having a decent week in the midst of everything and you have some good GAL planned. H is away this weekend (not to her city) and the girls and I got a hotel for two nights-- going to be super fun!!

Originally Posted by LH19
If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

U, this is hard. H is nowhere near these things... maybe #1, but not #2 (unless you wrap the kids, house, everything else into that package, and it *still* might not be enough) and not at #3 either. Still in his selfish fantasy space. The only path I see to the above would be separating and he goes, and maybe at some point in the future he'll want to R and I'll be open to it too, though I'm kind of doubtful I could ever forgive him for taking that last final step out of the M. So a possibility that may happen in a couple of weeks and then I will have these words to hold onto. Until then, I am not sure how we get to #2 especially above unless through the process of letting AP go in his heart and turning back towards me those feelings can be reignited.

Woosa-- Thank you, yes. I am realizing that about the labels-- has been a helpful shortcut for me, but I am now starting to see how it was really demeaning for my H to have me box him up in a label cliche.

For me-- focusing on me-- I know what I want. We talked about it a little today at MC and H acted all all surprised-- I never knew you felt that way (wanting to be in a passionate MR, an H who loves and is in love with me), you've only focused on the kids. Which is BS but whatever, he clearly wasn't hearing it when I said it before. Anyway, I guess my hope and first choice is to get that with my H. If I can't, then I don't want the scraps. At this point I'm still willing to sit in the awfulness of limbo while we sort things out for a couple more weeks.

Hope-- thank you so, so much for saying that. This feeling of failing the children and losing out on time we can never get back is just such a horrible fear. I know intellectually it could be worse (last night H was like, it could be worse, neither of our kids has cancer) and that we're good parents and the kids will be just fine, but emotionally this is just a knife to my heart.


Me (46) H (42)
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4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
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I hear your strength. He gets you, or he gets AP, but he doesn't get to go on a trip with AP and come back to you. You're a strong woman, worth of a partner who respects and adores you. I wager he's only getting so many chances because of kiddos. I wonder if he'll snap out of it, before he finds himself left behind.

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I just want to know where in the world the D fantasy comes from. Man, I can really identify with the WS who lives in unicorn land and believes we will D but be best friends and talk all the time and hang out as a family like we are a sitcom or something.

I also think he believes we will switch being in the house each week with the kids. Uh, no.

I am sorry for the fantasy in your situation, but man I am glad I am not the only one on planet crazy.


the best apology is changed behavior.
***************
me: 45 h: 48
m: 23 T: 26
DD1:19 DD2:16 DS:11
BD1: PA for 2 yrs 08/2016
BD2: OW is one of my closest friends 12/2016
BD3: H wants a D 11/2019
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