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I completely understand where you are coming from on the lack of trust that this is the right moment to try something like that.

My sister has pressed me to try yoga. I tried it several years ago after a neck injury. I surf from time to time and it always feels like I just had the best 2hr meditation of my life. That connection to the presence of the physical world helps bring everything to the here and now. It's like meditation on steroids. I'm thinking yoga may be something I can try on a more regular basis.

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Originally Posted by May22
Of course, friends don't lie to their friends and betray them for two years..

Wow--it doesn't sound like who he is now is much of a friend or a lover.

Originally Posted by May22
it is so frustrating and makes me just want to say F it, GTFO of my house and go dark, dark, dark..

That would end the limbo, if you could accept either outcome. I wonder where he gets that fantasy from. You're being so amazingly patient, but of course there's a limit, and it sounds like it's close.

Originally Posted by May22
I *am* more than just a consolation prize.

Totally!

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So. In our discernment MC yesterday H said he'd spoken with his mom and she hit him with some major 2x4s about the reality of a D (popped his fantasy bubble) and that while she loved him unconditionally she was ashamed of him. He cried. It seems like for the first time he started to understand that his fantasy D scenario may not be possible; that he is really hurting me and will really hurt the girls; and that his behavior is wrong and she isn't buying all his justifications. That others will feel the same way and she laid out all the negative consequences of his behavior. Because he hasn't told anyone else besides me and his IC (now this MC), this is the first time that someone other than AP or me who knows him well has really weighed in on what he's doing. He said he felt ashamed. He is wanting to choose to stay in the M and work on our R. He's scared he'll do this and 6 months in I'll say I'm out and he'll have lost both of us.

I don't know what to think. I didn't say much. I listened. He is definitely not choosing ME at this point. Trying to be quiet and patient, still working on detaching etc.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Goodness. Keep working on loving detachment.

I see a lot of NGS indicators in your H. Like.. A LOT. I know it’s dangerous to mind read and I’m bringing my own experience to the table here but the alarm bells are blaring. You may want to read about it if you haven’t already. Indecision.... feeling ashamed.... easily adopting an authority figure’s POV (his M)... sounding like he has no clue what he wants but having a fantasy he can somehow fix things and make everyone happy while in fact treating everyone in his situation dishonestly.

It’s not a Plan A/B thing. He wants Plan A AND Plan B because he doesn’t know what he wants other than to avoid hurting anybody (which is actually an extremely selfish and avoidant choice).

Maybe his M popping his fantasy bubble will spur him to some personal growth. Or maybe it’s a temporary blip and he’ll return to those same ingrained thought patterns.

I had NGS and knew it for years... it took a deep abyss of a rock bottom for me to start making true change. I found my W cold and distant. I didn’t go have a PA but the symptoms manifest in different ways. In my case, I’ve made changes and my W refused to look at her role. I’m nowhere near where I want to be... it is not a quick process. You have the opposite case, where you have looked at your contributions to things not working. Hopefully he starts dealing with his part. But it’s more than just choosing you over AP. That is necessary but not sufficient.

Stay grounded and focus on yourself, may. Hang in there.

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He’s been this way for 2 years so it’s unlikely one conversation has woken him up. I think the only way to get through to cheaters is to let them face the consequences. My H still hasn’t been served but I promise you presently he feels safe in the knowledge that I would never divorce him. That he’s completely in control of this situation. That he can come back if things don’t work out with her. Nope. I’m done.

Last edited by kas99; 01/19/20 09:40 PM.
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May, I don’t have anything constructive to add, I’m just here to show support. I’m glad you have a MIL who seems to understand your struggles. My MIL is not intelligent enough to help with the situation if she knows about it, and will probably just blow up everything more lol. Your H has a lot of fear, and he definitely does not know where his head is right now. Hopefully he will be able to think his way through and gain clarity in time.


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Kas... I know things are tough but I'm so glad you're standing strong.

Wooba... thanks. I need the support... this is just so, so difficult. My MIL has been great and I'm really fortunate to have her both able to support both of us but to be able to tell him when he's screwing up. H is completely full of fear. I think he's basically been paralyzed for the last year and desperately wants someone else to make the decision for him. I think he's more scared of losing her and what could be than me because he doesn't truly believe I won't be his friend in the end (just like a big part of me doesn't truly believe he's going to walk, though I'm using all my powers right now to prepare for it and be OK).

Unchien... I don't know. Literally no one who knows my H would ever describe him as a stereotypical nice guy in a million years. I read more about NGS and I think there are a few things that do resonate-- he really cares what other people think of him; he tends to get resentful and takes things personally; he has difficulty asking for help. His resentment can come out in some passive aggressive behaviors like sarcasm and rude comments. However, he is NOT afraid of conflict-- he is more of a pot stirrer and is very comfortable with arguing and likes to play devil's advocate just to see what happens in conversations. A lot of our conflict and my resentment towards him actually stemmed from him making decisions that I saw as selfish-- choices that were things he wanted to do but didn't necessarily really think of me or the kids.

My MIL said to my yesterday that he is both arrogant and insecure, and she's right. The insecurity probably does jibe somewhat with NGS. Also, I think he has tried to solve my problems and "please" me without being very communicative about how he felt or what he really needed-- he's fine with talking and arguing about what he thinks or what he wants to do or not do, but not really about how he feels or what he needs.

He feels like I dictated our entire adult lives because I'm older, smarter, blah blah blah and he has just gone along for the ride. This is total BS, by the way-- we moved all the way from one side of the country to the other for him to go to grad school, I quit my job, and he was the one that really pushed moving back too-- every major decision from what house to buy to where to send the kids to school has been what he was really pushing, though up until now when I'm feeling really burnt by all of this I would have considered them decisions we made together. Anyway, it isn't logical but it is where he is right now. I see it more as a mid-life crisis kind of situation and while it really pissed him off a couple of years ago when I said this to him (hahaha, because actually his behavior was because he was having an AFFAIR!) now he is accepting that there is something to turning 40, not sure if he's taken the right path, not having very many close friends where we live, business not doing as well as he had hoped, no big projects to focus on, me making more money than him, hair turning grey, and this big hole in our R shaped like sex and thinking that this was going to be the rest of his life.

Originally Posted by unchien
Indecision.... feeling ashamed.... easily adopting an authority figure’s POV (his M)... sounding like he has no clue what he wants but having a fantasy he can somehow fix things and make everyone happy while in fact treating everyone in his situation dishonestly.

Yes, yes, yes. These are all true. He's a huge momma's boy, always has been. They talk on the phone daily. It has actually been a source of a bit of irritation over the years for me. He is still clinging to this fantasy that he can have an outcome where "he doesn't ruin anyone's life" which is pathetic and infuriating to me, that somehow inaction is different than action. (And, that carrying on an A is actually continued choices and actions, not just cruising along in the momentum, which is I think kind of how he sees it.)

Originally Posted by unchien
It’s not a Plan A/B thing. He wants Plan A AND Plan B because he doesn’t know what he wants other than to avoid hurting anybody (which is actually an extremely selfish and avoidant choice

Yes-- he said as much to the MC (and has said to me). His mom told me she thinks he doesn't think I will be that hurt because I'm strong and that he sees the AP as more fragile (I can't remember the exact word she used-- wasn't exactly "fragile" but along those lines). I think he can't really envision hurting the girls and so simply hasn't and in the abstract thinks they will be fine because we're good parents and love them so much and they're good kids. When he starts to think about the kids and hurting them more concretely he gets very upset and says he can't do it. He clearly has a lot of thinking still to do around this.

Originally Posted by unchien
Maybe his M popping his fantasy bubble will spur him to some personal growth. Or maybe it’s a temporary blip and he’ll return to those same ingrained thought patterns.

I'm thinking more likely blip than anything else. He is the absolute master at justifying his actions after the fact (as well as things that just happen to him outside of his control-- they always end up being the best thing that ever happened) plus generally likes to hear what he wants to hear, and I'm sure enough time once his mom goes back home will allow him to reestablish his pat explanation for all of this. His mom said he had told her he wants to talk to her again, but he hasn't initiated a conversation and she's waiting for him to come to her. She's also feeling like she can't keep this from his dad because she's in such emotional pain about it, but is really worried about how his dad will react... it won't be pretty. She's also angry that he is still taking communion at mass.

I don't know. We spent probably half of the session at MC talking about whether or not he is going to see AP on his next trip, how that makes me feel (like we're over... but the MC pushes me on that) and his thoughts on the whole thing (if I won't be able to believe him anyway if he says he won't, then what does it even matter-- it is something I'll need to figure out) and his desire to have closure and break it off with her in person. MC pushing him on this too, and gave voice to something I hadn't been able to put my finger on-- that him choosing to see her (or continue to talk to her) is in my view actively hurting me because I know about it and he should know how much damage it is doing to me, when before he could justify that what I didn't know didn't hurt me.

Blu, if you're reading this-- he is so, so far away from the repentant H you describe. But it is weird to hear the words of wanting to choose the M from his mouth.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
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Hello May,

Yes, I am following. I follow several posters (you, of course) but have not been committed to replying. I apologize for that. Mostly, I am just working a lot but I also am finding myself feeling conflicted on how to best reply. Sometimes I feel triggered by posts and have to really challenge myself to separate my own sitch from theirs, and then other times I just do not agree with other posters and advice. I don't see the point in arguing with strangers. For example, I don't agree with a lot of what Unchien wrote above, but they are entitled to their opinion as well. There are a lot of cooks in the kitchen, but it is up to you to listen to whoever you choose.

I have been thinking about your sitch and Kristin's. I am also accepting how different we all are in what we are willing to accept and how much of our personal values we can sacrifice. All of these terms that we use here -- MLC, NGS, EA vs PA, etc -- are essentially meaningless. They are just things we use to support our own narrative, or help us try and make sense of things, because it makes us feel better. Personally, I don't see any reason to use the term MLC because it doesn't serve a purpose. MLC simply suggests that our S left us for reasons that were not OUR own fault. The only person we can control in this equation is OURself, so that is the part we should be focusing on, not why they are this way or that way, and why it fits in the MLC bracket. We cannot control them so I don't see a reason to focus on that. Whatever their reasons are for their adultery/lies/abuse are not excuses and they are still responsible for how they treat others.

I also do not see how your H is a MNG, but I don't think most of the posters that claim to be are. I live with one and have read the book, so I think I have an pretty good understanding of what it means. Again, it doesn't actually matter, and it is just a term we use to try and make sense of things. The problem with using it incorrectly is again, it creates an excuse for the other person and takes the focus off of the the only thing we can control. OURSELF. ... I do agree that your H is different than mine in the sense that he is not remorseful or wanting to repent. This was a condition that I needed before even considering taking him back, however I get the sense you don't feel the same and we are different in that way. What I am reading is that as soon as your H cuts off his A and commits to your M, then you are willing to work on things. Is that correct?

I think a better way to look at things right now (for you and for Kristin) is to take a more simple approach. Quite simply, when you look at the bigger picture, what kind of partner do you want in life? What are you willing to accept from that person? And how have you taught your partner to treat you by accepting them back so readily? ...

When we put so much energy into dissecting them and their behavior -- are they a MNG, is it a MLC, is it an EA or PA, and will they end it, or come back, etc, etc --- we are essentially doing the opposite of DBing. We are handing them our power. They become the focus and they have the control over what happens next. DB is about letting them go (they asked for that), working on GAL, self healing, and ultimately detachment. Once we become a healthier and stronger version of ourselves, then down the line, if and only if, they show us someone worthy of our forgiveness and acceptance, we will be in a better place to make that decision then. That is how I see it anyhow and that is what worked for me. I made myself of higher value in the equation and then I removed myself from the equation. I tend to think that is the only thing that works in the long run.

Blu


Last edited by BluWave; 01/20/20 06:58 PM.

“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
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Hi Blu,

Honestly, you shouldn't feel any need to respond or not. You have been so incredibly helpful for me through all of this. I literally repeat your words to myself ("I am the queen of my castle") when I'm feeling triggered or down.

For me, having the ability to post here and know there are others out there rooting for me, caring about me, and sharing their thoughts and opinions on what is going on feels really good. I do take all the advice and thoughts seriously-- it is good for me to have multiple POVs and (probably just like my H) do tend to like to see things in my own way, so both thinking about how others have dealt in similar situations and listening openly to thoughts on my sitch that might not be my first thought helps me to process all of this. I'm a researcher by nature, and feel better about any decision I make if I dig through every corner of what could be going on or what might happen before I commit, especially to something big. I know there are multiple cooks in the kitchen and not everyone has the same opinion, but to me that is a good thing and I value them all.

Originally Posted by BluWave
What I am reading is that as soon as your H cuts off his A and commits to your M, then you are willing to work on things. Is that correct?

I don’t know yet. This is what I want and what I’ve been saying I want all along to him— I want to know, in the end, that we both gave our M our very best shot, and if it doesn’t work, I can look my children in the eyes and know in my heart I did everything I could to give them an intact family. Also, that I cannot work on that with him with a third party in the picture. So yes, on the surface, if he cuts off his A and is willing to work on the M, then I am too.

Yet now that he’s actually saying he thinks he wants to work on the M I am feeling unsure, mostly because I don’t think he’s really there yet and recommitted in his mind. He isn’t repentant, he isn’t curious about where I am, he is stuck in his own head and isn’t really thinking about anyone else but his own selfish needs— he only sees others right now (including me and AP) in relation to him and his actions— do we give him what he wants and/or how will his actions, in affecting us, affect him back. (Like how guilty he’ll feel over hurting one of us rather than actually understanding the hurt he is causing.) I don’t think, right now, that he WANTS a renewed MR with me. He wants this to be over and to not have made a mistake, and so any decision is paralyzing and he can’t make it. He said in MC that the thought of choosing to stay (which I think hasn’t been much of where he has been) fills him with relief and that so much of his anxiety just disappears. But he definitely isn’t saying I’m sorry, I’m so sorry, I want this, I want YOU. I feel like he’s more feeling that staying is the most bearable of two unbearable situations full of pain.

Where I had been is of course he feels that way, he will for awhile, he will need to grieve this R with the AP and get to a place where he can truly return to the MR in his heart as well as his head. And if it is easier on the children in the long run if we go through that part living together instead of apart— even if it is harder on me and takes longer— I am willing to do that to spare them the incredible breach in trust and belief in love that I know they’ll endure when he moves out.

Originally Posted by BluWave
I think a better way to look at things right now (for you and for Kristin) is to take a more simple approach. Quite simply, when you look at the bigger picture, what kind of partner do you want in life? What are you willing to accept from that person? And how have you taught your partner to treat you by accepting them back so readily? ...

I don’t want to be second fiddle to anyone in the long run. I want to have a H that cherishes and loves me and feels lucky all day long to be my H. I used to have that. I told him in MC that I don’t want to feel like a consolation prize. Both the MC and H reacted strongly/negatively to that statement (strangely so, I thought). I want an H I can trust wholeheartedly. Can I ever have that again with this one? I don’t know… but I am, for the girls’ sake, willing to go through the work to find out, assuming he is as well.

I am not willing to accept, now that everything is out in the open, a continued R with the AP and stay married. That is why his next trip is such a big moment for me and will be the thing I need— assuming we stay status quo— to boot him out.

And, as I have come to be more and more comfortable with the idea of life without him, his annoying habits are making me more and more annoyed. He has been kind of a jerk to his parents on more than one occasion and I wonder if these faults I have always tolerated are simply not tolerable anymore, now that I can see a picture of life without him.

I guess that the big question is if it is possible at all for him to return to the M in his heart if he cuts off the A but doesn’t suffer the consequences of his choices and losing me/time with kids/etc etc. I know it has to be his decision, it can’t be something he feels forced into at all, which is kind of tricky right now since he definitely thinks that to be the case. Also, if I'm teaching him he can treat me with disrespect by allowing this treatment today and if that will persist in the long term... I guess I'm holding onto the idea that once we both decide to work on the M and she's out of the picture, things are going to have to change.

And of course this all presupposes that even if he comes back wholeheartedly to the R that I can too. i *think* I can. But it takes two to make a M work, and if we do decide to work on our R and I’m comfortable that AP is completely out of the picture, there will be some point where we both will need to decide if this is the right path. His behavior today won’t be acceptable in the long run. I guess I am waiting to see if he can change and if he does, if that H will be someone I can be with in the long term.

Blu, your questions are important ones, and ones I continue to ponder. I've set myself a deadline of three weeks, when he leaves for his next trip, to decide what I want to do. Yes, I am willing to put up with far more than I ever believed I would through all of this... but for me so much of all of this is wrapped up in my kids and my overwhelming fear of hurting them or losing this precious, precious time with them when they are little and still so want to be with me, and hug me and cuddle with me and tell me all their secrets. I know this won’t last long and the thought of H taking part of that away from me fills me with fear and fury. (There’s that anger!!)

When I spoke with his MIL the other day, she said to me that I was focusing so much on the girls and how this would hurt the girls… but I couldn’t overlook how it was hurting ME. That I was important in this too. I sobbed. I think this is something I’m still coming to terms with— what do *I* deserve and want compared to what I can or can’t give to my children.

Right now, my choices feel so binary— let him stay or kick him out. I’m just not sure it is all that clear. And the last thing I want to do is take such a significant step of kicking him out and hurting the kids without knowing in my heart I’m OK with it and it was the right thing to do. I’m just not there quite yet.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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I want to reply to so many of your points above but have to get up for work! Just wanted to let you know that I feel and can empathise with so much of what you write and I’m returning the hugs!! . I will reply later once I’m done with work and gym!


M:49 H:49
T:20 M:18
D:16 D:14

EA: Feb 2019-May 2020
Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020
H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020
EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020
Recon #2: since Nov 2020
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