My advice don't focus on the OM. I wouldn't even look at him on social media or wherever. Nothing good can come of it.
Are you still checking your W's texts? Do you think that helps or hurts with your anxiety/anger/etc?
What does your IC say about this?
IC suggests to not snoop for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I had to though...if OM and W contacted during NYE, I'd know they are close and not in occasional contact. Sure enough, they look to be in contact. I can't see texts so I dont truly know who send the message, just that it came from a messenger she never used before OM.
ICs take is to have relationship chats with W and IC has good logic behind it. She's a professional and quite good so I do feel apt to take her advice and have the chats with W. This however goes against DB rules. IC has helped couples in the middle of mediation turn things around.
H37, W37 D4, S2 ILYBNILWY 9/19 BD 9/19 EA discovered 10/19 Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
My advice don't focus on the OM. I wouldn't even look at him on social media or wherever. Nothing good can come of it.
Are you still checking your W's texts? Do you think that helps or hurts with your anxiety/anger/etc?
What does your IC say about this?
IC suggests to not snoop for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I had to though...if OM and W contacted during NYE, I'd know they are close and not in occasional contact. Sure enough, they look to be in contact. I can't see texts so I dont truly know who send the message, just that it came from a messenger she never used before OM.
ICs take is to have relationship chats with W and IC has good logic behind it. She's a professional and quite good so I do feel apt to take her advice and have the chats with W. This however goes against DB rules. IC has helped couples in the middle of mediation turn things around.
A couple points, you say you "had to look" I don't understand that. You don't have to look. the only thing it does it hurts you and potential progress. I think you should be honest...you wanted to look. If you want to keep touching the hot stove, you know the consequences. But snooping can be an addiction in itself. You have to guard for that.
I kinda agree/don't agree with your IC. In my situation I probably had too many relationship chats with the wife. Sometimes they sucked, other times they brought clarity. But have to remember that anything your W tells sincerely in a R chat is how they are feeling at that moment. It's not how they feel for the end or time.
I don't agree having an R chat constantly or to rehash over old things. I would be more strategic. There were times in my situation where and R chat was absolutely necessary. Other times where I probably could have let it go. Believe me, I got hammered for it on here.
It does go against DB but this is where I think you have to balance information you get here and information you get IRL.
Core, I was like you in the beginning, always claiming "I just had to look". My troubles with not snooping are documented in my threads. Truth is, we don't have to. And as others have said, it rarely improves things and almost always makes them worse. Just like R talks. That is why we advocate not starting them. And if you get dragged into one to listen, and validate.
Read the validation thread. Validating is a money technique! Why? Because your W will feel heard and will feel that her feelings are understood without you agreeing to anything she says. It is powerful in any relationship, not just in your marriage. Shoot, I've even used it on other posters!
Study validation and master it, it will work wonders in your sitch.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Being treated "poorly" is subjective. And it allows one to become a 'victim' ...
What exactly are you afraid of Core ?
Good points. What I'm afraid of is S1 learning that this is ok for a woman to do. For D4 to learn to treat others this way. For the marriage to end and the kids to go through turmoil. I'm afraid my plans to retire will be greatly delayed due to the financial impact. Im afraid to move to an unsafe neighborhood with poor schools as I can't afford any better while paying daycare, child support and alimony. I'm afraid of missing half their childhoods and of studies that show single parents have much less quality time with their kids. Thats all the tip of the iceberg.
And all fair points...
How much of that can YOU control ??
How much of that can you change ??
What if you can't change any of it ??
What happens if you can't control the outcome of this ??
Who are you left with, if things don't turn out the way you want them to ??
Core...just because someone texted your W on NYE doesn’t mean they are close. I had about six texts on NYE. Regardless...you are making this about him and it is not about him. The issues you and your W had were present long before he showed up on the scene. He is a symptom of and her current “solution” to her unhappiness. The more you focus on him, the more likely it is you will push the two of them together. Stop trying to figure that part of your sitch out. You have no control over it anyway and it only feeds the anger and resentment that you feel. Let it go. Let her go.
Focus on you and your kids. Be the best dad you can be to them with or without her. Quality time is more important than quantity. Continue to set a good example for them when they are with you. They won’t remember the details...just how they felt. Make sure they feel loved, supported, respected and safe. My kids did 100% better when they saw that I was okay...regardless of what their dad was doing. My biggest regret is that they saw me sad and weepy in the beginning because it scared them. Now they see nothing but a confident and happy mom and this has had a great effect. It is not what I wanted. It kills me they don’t get the intact family that I had growing up. But it is what it is and I have no choice but to accept it and make the best of the situation.
I hope your sitch turns out better than mine did but please don’t count on it. Accept that the MR you had is over and move forward. If your W ends up wanting to join you in your “new” life, great. If not, you will still be further ahead. It’s a win-win situation when you think of it from that perspective. Also...regarding R talks...it’s not that you can’t have them...if you do, it should be her initiating and you should focus on listening and validating and not on trying to control the outcome. If you try to push someone, or pull them, before they are ready, the natural inclination is for them to push back or pull away. Don’t force this unless you are prepared to deal with an unwanted outcome.
I know how hard this is. Just stay the course and focus on you. It gets better with time. I promise. (((HUGS)))
U, you read me like a book. I follow your thread as I often see you post the same things I'm feeling or thinking. I like to think I'm a smart dude but when its comes to emotional awareness, I swear D4 is already smarter than me. I am workingon it though. My IC told me she's noticed immense growth. I do continue to waste mental energy in hypothicals. Glad you pointed that out. Something to continue to work on.
Core ~ I react strongly to your thread because I see a lot of myself in you.
I should be clear what I mean by emotional awareness - I mean understanding not just my emotions, but also how they are entangled with thoughts. One feeds the other. Anxiety is a beast... even thinking about your anxiety makes you anxious, right? That impulse to resolve anxiety has driven me to make some really lousy and unhealthy choices.
As far as concerns about your kids, I moved out 6 months ago, and the QUALITY of my time with my kids has grown exponentially. I'm not saying that happens for everyone. But it seems the study was wrong in my case. Studies are conglomerations of statistics. Studies are often designed to give the desired answer for whomever designed it. Studies probably show your MR probably has <50% chance of R. Does that mean you are going to give up? Of course not. You are 1 of 1, screw the statistics.
Sorry if the above comes across strongly. It's taken some 2x4s from the vets to help me snap out of some deeply entrenched patterns.
Core, you are extremely fortunate to have Mach weighing in on your sitch. He is a master at DBing. His style is different than the rest of us but his probing questions helped me immensely in my sitch!
Last edited by Steve85; 01/04/2003:21 AM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
DV bragging about all her texts lol! We aren't all pros ya know?
I love what Mach posted on love being giving. It really is, and it reminds of spiritual teachings, not that he intended that. I am an inherently selfish person so those words resonated with me. Mach's questions take me back to me football playing/coaching days and my time in boot camp. You must have a PMA. Always! If you focus on things out of your control, you are not gaining ground towards the things you can control. My attitude change away from this mindset is why I got BD'd. Point blank, that is it. Never again....
I love that we have some of the old brass gathering round in your thread too. Thanks to Mario and Mach for dropping in.
My first IC/MC was giving me advice that was contrary to DB, as was my second IC. I found one I really like now. She doesn't know DB by trade, few do. I've been with this one over a year now and she can relate to DB.
I do think that MWD has the right approach with her 8 & 16 hour intensives. How much of your story can you convey in 1 hour per week? Your IC may have some great advice too though. What is he or she saying that is anti DB? DB means doing what works you know...
Core, I see you stressing over time and how you lament having no control other than filing for D. This is how your W felt for a long time I imagine: torn between her vows and her current desire to want to leave and live a "better" life. You need no imagination to see that she was and your are in this position where the promise to your spouse and your desire to be happy are at odds.
MWD advocates a bit of snooping to see what needs he/she is meeting for your spouse. I think you know now, so consider no more snooping.
Good luck...
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
You are getting a lot of great advice here from some very experienced people, so I won't be overly wordy. The one thing i would highly recommend is stopping the snooping.
Ask yourself - has it ever made you feel any better afterwards? Or has it made you feel worse?
Does snooping allow you to change what your W is doing?
What are you planning to do with this information that you gather from snooping?
Point is - and I'm just guessing here - it probably makes you feel like [censored] afterwards, then you get angry, then bitter, then resentment builds. And I'm gonna go out on a ledge here and suggest that those feelings are projected in an outward manner, which makes you look and feel even worse, etc etc. IMO that is not a good position to be in, especially if you would like a possible chance at Recon way way way far down the road.
Wow, thank you all, vets and newerbies for the feedback! 2x4s are always appreciated and are wanted. Direct speak is very helpful!
Originally Posted by Mario
A couple points, you say you "had to look" I don't understand that. You don't have to look. the only thing it does it hurts you and potential progress. I think you should be honest...you wanted to look. If you want to keep touching the hot stove, you know the consequences. But snooping can be an addiction in itself. You have to guard for that.
I kinda agree/don't agree with your IC. In my situation I probably had too many relationship chats with the wife. Sometimes they sucked, other times they brought clarity. But have to remember that anything your W tells sincerely in a R chat is how they are feeling at that moment. It's not how they feel for the end or time.
I don't agree having an R chat constantly or to rehash over old things. I would be more strategic. There were times in my situation where and R chat was absolutely necessary. Other times where I probably could have let it go. Believe me, I got hammered for it on here.
That touching the hot stove analogy was funny. You're right in that I wanted to look. Why...maybe for closure? I guess if I ever have to make the call to file it helps me feel less guilty than if it stopped after I caught it initally.
Regarding R chats, I agree that some may be necessary, at least in situations like our where we are looking at long term coexisting in one house, and to relieve some tension. Early on, they seemed successful. W tried to make it work short term, wrote to OM to tell him goodbye, actually started R chats, agreed to counseling and even emailed me a letter of apology. When I stopped the chats, I think OM snuck back in and we ended up in silent angry limbo. This is not to say I think R chats are great either, I agree on strategic.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Core, I was like you in the beginning, always claiming "I just had to look". My troubles with not snooping are documented in my threads. Truth is, we don't have to. And as others have said, it rarely improves things and almost always makes them worse. Just like R talks. That is why we advocate not starting them. And if you get dragged into one to listen, and validate.
Read the validation thread. Validating is a money technique! Why? Because your W will feel heard and will feel that her feelings are understood without you agreeing to anything she says. It is powerful in any relationship, not just in your marriage. Shoot, I've even used it on other posters!
Study validation and master it, it will work wonders in your sitch.
I swear validation is like learning another language. A very useful one, to carry throughout life. Hard to learn at first, how long did it take you? In regards to snooping, you're right, all I get from it is anger and sadness.
Originally Posted by Mach1
How much of that can YOU control ??
How much of that can you change ??
What if you can't change any of it ??
What happens if you can't control the outcome of this ??
Who are you left with, if things don't turn out the way you want them to ??
How does he navigate through all of that ???
I'm still thinking about your "love is what you give" comment and now you blow my mind with this. My mind is fighting answering them as it knows the answer is to let go of control. I read this hours ago and still keep coming back to think deeper.
Originally Posted by DejaVu6
Core...just because someone texted your W on NYE doesn’t mean they are close. I had about six texts on NYE. Regardless...you are making this about him and it is not about him. The issues you and your W had were present long before he showed up on the scene. He is a symptom of and her current “solution” to her unhappiness. The more you focus on him, the more likely it is you will push the two of them together. Stop trying to figure that part of your sitch out. You have no control over it anyway and it only feeds the anger and resentment that you feel. Let it go. Let her go.
Focus on you and your kids. Be the best dad you can be to them with or without her. Quality time is more important than quantity. Continue to set a good example for them when they are with you. They won’t remember the details...just how they felt. Make sure they feel loved, supported, respected and safe. My kids did 100% better when they saw that I was okay...regardless of what their dad was doing. My biggest regret is that they saw me sad and weepy in the beginning because it scared them. Now they see nothing but a confident and happy mom and this has had a great effect. It is not what I wanted. It kills me they don’t get the intact family that I had growing up. But it is what it is and I have no choice but to accept it and make the best of the situation.
Also...regarding R talks...it’s not that you can’t have them...if you do, it should be her initiating and you should focus on listening and validating and not on trying to control the outcome. If you try to push someone, or pull them, before they are ready, the natural inclination is for them to push back or pull away. Don’t force this unless you are prepared to deal with an unwanted outcome.
I know how hard this is. Just stay the course and focus on you. It gets better with time. I promise. (((HUGS)))
DV, thank you. Your comment on the kids remembering how they feel struck a cord. Thought about my on childhood and a lot was about how I felt, not exact words. The text came from a scrambled number generated for secrecy, one which started when OM appeared. Still not hard evidence but close and...I do need to stop thinking about it. I see now I attached to W again over the holidays.
Im glad you gathered the strength and were the pillar for your kids. At least one parent needs to be a solid foundation for them and you found a way.
Originally Posted by unchien
Core ~ I react strongly to your thread because I see a lot of myself in you.
I should be clear what I mean by emotional awareness - I mean understanding not just my emotions, but also how they are entangled with thoughts. One feeds the other. Anxiety is a beast... even thinking about your anxiety makes you anxious, right? That impulse to resolve anxiety has driven me to make some really lousy and unhealthy choices.
As far as concerns about your kids, I moved out 6 months ago, and the QUALITY of my time with my kids has grown exponentially. I'm not saying that happens for everyone. But it seems the study was wrong in my case. Studies are conglomerations of statistics. Studies are often designed to give the desired answer for whomever designed it. Studies probably show your MR probably has <50% chance of R. Does that mean you are going to give up? Of course not. You are 1 of 1, screw the statistics.
Sorry if the above comes across strongly. It's taken some 2x4s from the vets to help me snap out of some deeply entrenched patterns.
U, keep the 2x4s coming! I work in statistics, its hard ro disregard them yet you are dead on with your comment on studies being designed to answer for whomever designed it. Its also very easy to sway stats to prove a point with little or no correlation.
The quality time with the kids, I'm glad you mentioned that as well. Reminds me of how much fun I had when it was just me and the kids for several days. It was incredible. We ate what I wanted, slept great and did a number of fun things without someone else trying to control, judge or be critical of me and what we were doing.
Keep on that fight against anxiety, its like were side by side in the battle.
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
I love what Mach posted on love being giving. It really is, and it reminds of spiritual teachings, not that he intended that. I am an inherently selfish person so those words resonated with me. Mach's questions take me back to me football playing/coaching days and my time in boot camp. You must have a PMA. Always! If you focus on things out of your control, you are not gaining ground towards the things you can control. My attitude change away from this mindset is why I got BD'd. Point blank, that is it. Never again....
I love that we have some of the old brass gathering round in your thread too. Thanks to Mario and Mach for dropping in.
My first IC/MC was giving me advice that was contrary to DB, as was my second IC. I found one I really like now. She doesn't know DB by trade, few do. I've been with this one over a year now and she can relate to DB.
I do think that MWD has the right approach with her 8 & 16 hour intensives. How much of your story can you convey in 1 hour per week? Your IC may have some great advice too though. What is he or she saying that is anti DB? DB means doing what works you know...
Core, I see you stressing over time and how you lament having no control other than filing for D. This is how your W felt for a long time I imagine: torn between her vows and her current desire to want to leave and live a "better" life. You need no imagination to see that she was and your are in this position where the promise to your spouse and your desire to be happy are at odds.
MWD advocates a bit of snooping to see what needs he/she is meeting for your spouse. I think you know now, so consider no more snooping.
Validation, attention, confidence and composure is what she's getting from OM. You're right in that there's no more need to snoop. Half of what he's is giving or maybe gave her, I simply can't give if we talk only business. Partially why I lean towards occasional R chats.
Interesting to hear the perspective of your IC relating to DB. Mine is anti DB in their opinion and experience, I should have R chats to clear up W's festering resentments and to set the record straight on things that didnt happen (rewriting of the past stuff, or miscommunications).
How long did it take to rebuild your PMA? I'm there with you, I had that and confidence in spades before I shifted focus and lost the alpha.
Originally Posted by IronWill
Hey Core -
The one thing i would highly recommend is stopping the snooping.
Ask yourself - has it ever made you feel any better afterwards? Or has it made you feel worse?
Does snooping allow you to change what your W is doing?
What are you planning to do with this information that you gather from snooping?
Point is - and I'm just guessing here - it probably makes you feel like [censored] afterwards, then you get angry, then bitter, then resentment builds. And I'm gonna go out on a ledge here and suggest that those feelings are projected in an outward manner, which makes you look and feel even worse, etc etc. IMO that is not a good position to be in, especially if you would like a possible chance at Recon way way way far down the road.
Wow, THIS ^^. All of it. What I wanted to gather from snooping is nothing, so as to get some self respect back and lower my hostility however I found what I found and the result was exactly what you wrote.
