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#2875312 12/09/19 02:52 PM
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Hi,
Like so many others here I’m hoping for some guidance if I may.

My story
Been married 11 yrs together 16 – two Children, S10, D7.

Over the last 3-4 years, now and then we would have periods of standoffs. One wouldn’t speak to the other about something, that would escalate then die down and return to normal. Each time we would say to eachother that we need to communicate more and think no more of it.

Fast forward to May this year. We had another episode as described above. This appears to be the final straw for my W. She said to me that that she can’t do this anymore, she didn’t know if she wanted or had the energy to carry on the same cycle. Of course my immediate response was this time lets really sort it out. Probably words she knew I would say. And I would mean them, but I guess I never did my part to really back them up.

Since then we still slept in the same bed, but no intimacy. Time went on, situation remained the same and by August I realised actually this time she is absolutely serious. So I did a lot of soul searching and indulged in looking back for triggers in my behaviour that has brought about this situation. I realised that I needed help. I went to the Docs and was prescribed anti- depressants, and booked myself with a C to talk about my issues.

During this time, my W had begun detaching, initiating steps for us to separate. Emails/texts/calls took a business like tone and I fell into the trap of desperately trying to cling on. Constant ILY’s reminders of what we had, marriage vows – you name it, I did it!
Turns out that was the worst thing. I was pressing the wrong buttons. It has steeled her resolve that she is right.
So, through C, I learnt I needed to validate her feelings and also understand my fear of conflict. I come from a divorced family, and whilst I was young, it has impacted on my life hugely. Conflict was never dealt with, and I would shy away from it with my W, because I’d associated it with my upbringing and feared that we would have the same result. Instead by shying away it has created the situation I’m in!

I have been reading self help books, have immersed myself in DR and tried to apply all the steps that ‘talk’ to me and the situation.
Where I’m at now you may ask?
Since September I have moved into spare room. We are living separately, but engaging for the childrens sake, and found a workable solution that allows this situation to play out. At her behest we have attended Mediation, separately, and following my meeting I understand it is purely a function to navigate full and final separation, custody, family plans , financials etc.
And I guess ultimately Divorce. Note this hasn’t been mentioned explicitly by her in any correspondence, conversations so don’t know if she is feeding the parting of ways in baby steps or not!

Well this is where I need some guidance. A couple of weeks ago, I wrote a letter to my W, validating her feelings. I didn’t cast any blame on her, though I know it does take two for these situations to arise I didn’t make it about me and what I was frustrated with. That she tried to reach out many times, and I would pull away (the fear), and then I would do the same, with the same result. I wanted her to understand that I really did understand her view. And I do.
I am fully committed to my M, and even more so as reading DR has resonated so deeply within me. I love my W, without question. Unconditionally infact. And I have realised that I was placing conditions upon her to fulfil my happiness.
In return she wrote back to me last week, underlining that she ‘can’t carry on anymore’ and ‘she doesn’t want to try’.
I thought ok, this is it. Time to throw in the towel. But I go back to advice I’ve read on this forum and the DR book. Let it be and settle in my mind. Be positive etc etc.
And things at home have been easier to bear, we sometimes eat together but the talk is about Kids and the logistics of their lives. Even thoughtful gestures coming my way, that weren’t there before.
However, W sent me an email about how we spend Christmas and when I want to attend Mediation to start the process of disentanglement. With me adopting DR techniques, and taking heart that there was a change – the email flummoxed me and instead of writing back on impulse and either refusing to engage or throwing in towel and saying right lets get on with it, I replied in acknowledgement that I have read her mail, but could I get back to her on it. What I’m struggling with is how I maintain course, when agreeing to her request seems counterintuitive to my aim to save our M, yet responding in a way that keeps the wins coming?
Any input, any further detail that would help please let me know. I’m trying my best
Chaz





C70 #2875314 12/09/19 02:54 PM
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I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting. Please visit all of the links.

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-65, D33,S32


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
C70 #2875318 12/09/19 02:57 PM
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Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.


Me-70, D37,S36
C70 #2875325 12/09/19 03:14 PM
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Quote
In return she wrote back to me last week, underlining that she ‘can’t carry on anymore’ and ‘she doesn’t want to try’.


That's how she feels right now. Time will tell. You give up when you're ready to give up, not when someone else is.

Quote
However, W sent me an email about how we spend Christmas and when I want to attend Mediation to start the process of disentanglement.
Let her figure out how she wants to do it. If she wants divorce, she can do the heavy lifting to get it going.

Are you OK with a mediator? Have you previously agreed to this?

Why did you go to the spare bedroom?

How bad were your cyclical arguments and how passionate were you guys at your best?


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
C70 #2875330 12/09/19 03:31 PM
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Chaz, thanks for posting here. You’ll find great people and get great advice.

Your story seems very familiar. Many here will relate. Stay strong and keep a positive outlook.

Make sure you take care of yourself and then your kids before anything else. Take care of your work, your health, your financials, your social life, etc. as much as you can.

I’m not going to lie: your MR is not in a good place right now. From what you’re saying, it looks like she has checked out already and determined to separate. Do the readings suggested by Cadet and Job. They’ll open your eyes.

But be ready to accept that your M may (will) be over at least for now. You can only control yourself, which is an important realization in life. It may make you sad, knowing that you cannot control others, but it is a truth that will make you stronger and wiser.

Whatever you do (soul searching, C, etc.) is for you. Use the energy you have now to become a better person. Don’t do it to get her back b/c she’ll do what she wants regardless.

Stay strong. There is always light at the end. Good luck smile


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Quote
In return she wrote back to me last week, underlining that she ‘can’t carry on anymore’ and ‘she doesn’t want to try’.


That's how she feels right now. Time will tell. You give up when you're ready to give up, not when someone else is.

Quote
However, W sent me an email about how we spend Christmas and when I want to attend Mediation to start the process of disentanglement.
Let her figure out how she wants to do it. If she wants divorce, she can do the heavy lifting to get it going.

Are you OK with a mediator? Have you previously agreed to this?

Why did you go to the spare bedroom?

How bad were your cyclical arguments and how passionate were you guys at your best?


Thank you all for replying and giving me some food for thought. As mentioned i'm deeply engrossed with deploying and implementing my learning from DR.
In answer to questions raised - I'm not really ok with Mediation as i see it as a means to pragmatically set out terms for separation and Divorce. Which in itself is fine, if i accept there is no other choice.
Arguments weren't bad, the discontent wasn't addressed properly as i can see now instead the same cycles would appear.
I went to the spare room, to be respectful of my WAS wishes to live separately under one roof. Neither of us can afford to move out on our own plus neither wanted to be misrepresented by leaving the family home/kids etc.

Having slept on your responses so far, caused me to revisit recent behaviours, correspondence etc. Whilst i agree and have said to my WAS, that our marriage in its current form is over. The cycles needed to stop. I believe i have the tools and the mindset to address my part and am returning behaviours that i hope my WAS found and find attractive that would set the course for a redefining, complete and loving M. Of course i swing from feelings of hopelesness to mild optimism - however since she wrote me what i call her 'Dear John' letter, i can see if i attach a belief that it is what she felt at the time, then the subsequent good days we have had together, as a family and on our own, alongside my change in demeanour - then am i right to feel bouyed by the upswing in her demeanour - or should i tread cautiously?





C70 #2875487 12/10/19 02:07 PM
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Hi Chaz,

I'm sorry you are going through this. You're doing your part to fix the sitch and keep the family together. That is noble and I'm sure however things go, it'll help you knowing you gave it your all. I'm in a similar sitch just with younger kids. Likely starting mediation soon, W telling me we are roomates for an unknown amount of time and sleeping in separate rooms. Just want to say you're not alone in this. The people here on the forum are looking out for you, hoping for the best.

I hear you on not wanting to go to mediation, I resisted myself, asking W for more time. In the end, if your W wants it, a D will happen one way or another. Mediation and working together amicably is likely to leave you with more of a chance to reconcile than fighting via lawyers. Saves money as well.

I consulted an attorney and my personal counselor and the only warning they have with mediation is that the H can lose out because of biases or state laws but also because a H may not stand up for himself, thinking he is doing the right thing giving W full custody, the house, car, etc. If YOU don't like how mediation goes, reassess and consult an attorney if need be. Many have an initial consultation for free. Just don't give up everything you love to make her happy. Just because you are going to mediation does not mean you agree with it or support the divorce. She knows where you stand. The challenge and where I'm hoping for you, is for her feelings to change and for you to become a better you.


H37, W37
D4, S2
ILYBNILWY 9/19
BD 9/19
EA discovered 10/19
Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
C70 #2875506 12/10/19 04:23 PM
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Chaz ~ Sorry you are going through this.

Regarding mediation, generally the stance taken here is "I don't want a D, but I won't stand in your way." DB would not be to refuse mediation. DB would be to let her do all the work setting it up.

Core points out some of the things to think about with mediation. Mediation only works well when both sides are on roughly equal footing in their negotiation abilities. I highly suggest regardless of what happens that you educate yourself on the process. I consulted a L to understand my custody and financial rights. Going to a L does not mean you *want* a divorce.

There are a lot of fears involved in this process for men with kids. For the most part I think these fears are irrational. Don't back off what you would ask for because you think men are awarded less custody typically, for example.

OK, enough about educating yourself.

Originally Posted by Chaz70
however since she wrote me what i call her 'Dear John' letter, i can see if i attach a belief that it is what she felt at the time, then the subsequent good days we have had together, as a family and on our own, alongside my change in demeanour - then am i right to feel bouyed by the upswing in her demeanour - or should i tread cautiously?

Detachment includes stopping all mind-reading.

Her change in attitude could mean absolutely anything. She could feel a weight lifted off her shoulders, more confident in D. She could be really enjoying the new coffee she's drinking. Who knows?

I would stop the letter-writing. My situation is a worst-case example if you want to read about it. But in general... she doesn't want to hear your thoughts. You can't win her back with a letter at this point. Heart-felt letters are the exact opposite of detachment. They are pressure, pursuit, emotional dumps on a person who doesn't want to hear how you are feeling right now. She only wants to hear how you are feeling about mediation and D because that is what SHE wants.

You mentioned conflict avoidance and going to C. These are great insights and great steps. During these sitches, we all get caught up in the logistics and the high stakes and the drama. Keep carving out that time and space to work on yourself.

C70 #2875626 12/11/19 12:40 PM
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Thanks all, to be clear i have only written one letter - which was based on the back of my learning in IC. It wasn't pleading, begging or anything designed to manipulate. Just understanding.

I've read and re-read a lot of the links provided above, and in the most part i'm detaching for instance i've stopped romanticising the past. It will always be true to me, and if she is honest true to her. But right now, she has re-written the past to suit her current narrative. Thats what i remind myself of. So i have to do the same, take the present as my guiding light, and adopt techniques that put my life and at the forefront. I know what i have to do, what i need to do.

Its hard though you know - the never ending processing, optimistic upswings , the tempering downswings and trying to apply an equilibrium to it all!

For instance the last few days we have spent time together as a family, talking and playing, indulging in fun. The kids love it, and to me it serves as a reminder that they are the most important thing. And off the back of this, has created a renewed outlet of us all being together at the same time. It has nurtured renewed conversations between my WAS and I, that creates optimism for me. And we have had a few laughs - something we used to do all the time. Positives breed positives right? Then i have to remind myself not to read too much into it - that i need to maintain a level approach, dampen my optimism. I know i have to because i'm teaching my self to detach.

Regarding Mediation, i'm clued up on it, i know my rights and have already prepared an outline of how I wish to proceed should we go down that path. I have requested that we postpone until New year, as the costs are prohibitive at this time of year, and feel it will pre-occupy us in a period when the Children should be and are enjoying the seasonal festivities.

Keep learning, keep applying them is my mantra.





C70 #2875701 12/11/19 06:58 PM
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Hi Chaz (like the name), glad you decided to join our group.

Quote
Over the last 3-4 years, now and then we would have periods of standoffs. One wouldn’t speak to the other about something, that would escalate then die down and return to normal. Each time we would say to eachother that we need to communicate more and think no more of it.


Do both of you have a little stubbornness? Just wondered, since you used the word "standoffs". I can understand why you might want to avoid some of these situations becoming worse, due to the affect your parents' divorce had on you. How much do you think resulted from you being too passive in the MR? Things may have appeared to get better, eventually, but in many cases the woman will push these unresolved issues down in her heart. She may try to get past it, but if left unresolved...….there's a risk it's going to breed resentment. And, that resentment will breed some other negative emotions that will arise at some point in the MR. The H may not realize the truth behind her anger, selfishness, rebellion, or whatever...…...but I can promise you it started with unresolved issues. Some men think that if the woman isn't talking about it and isn't acting cold/angry, then everything is better.

A H's passivity can absolutely kill his W's attraction to him. It may take a while, but it works kind of like sandpaper. Once the shine & paint is gone, it starts getting down into the wood...….slowing eating it away. In other words, her respect for you as a man is affected. Her level of respect for you is tied to her sexual desire/attraction for you as a man. When the respect drops enough, the sex will usually drop as well. The fact that the two of you had a sexually starved M, suggests that the sandpaper had gotten into the wood.

Quote
Time went on, situation remained the same and by August I realised actually this time she is absolutely serious.


Wow! So, it took all this time.... and her shutting down the sex.... before you took her seriously?

Quote
I went to the Docs and was prescribed anti- depressants, and booked myself with a C to talk about my issues.


Good!

Quote
During this time, my W had begun detaching, initiating steps for us to separate. Emails/texts/calls took a business like tone and I fell into the trap of desperately trying to cling on. Constant ILY’s reminders of what we had, marriage vows – you name it, I did it!
Turns out that was the worst thing. I was pressing the wrong buttons. It has steeled her resolve that she is right.


She's right about what? That she needs to end the M?

Quote
I am fully committed to my M, and even more so as reading DR has resonated so deeply within me. I love my W, without question. Unconditionally infact. And I have realised that I was placing conditions upon her to fulfil my happiness.


I want to respond to your statement about being fully committed to your M, and how deeply you feel love for your W. You may feel this is the time she needs to be assured of how much you love her and how far you are willing to go to prove your commitment. However, this is not what she wants to hear or see, at the moment. Your W wants to experience freedom. If she is talking mediation, it's not b/c she wants to see you buckle down working on the MR (whatever working may mean to you). I don't mean this to sound harshly, but I say it from a place of experience and what I've learned over the past years. The more you crowd her, the more you push her away. It's like a dance. You step back, it draws her toward you...…..you step forward, she'll step back.

Don't misunderstand me. You can be committed to working on a plan of action that might bust a divorce. You can even be committed to honoring your vows. It won't bust a divorce, if she is set on getting one. It wasn't your lack of commitment that was the problem. Do you get what I am saying? It wasn't a lack of love that drove a wedge between the two of you. I have yet to see a LBH profess his enduring love and commitment to a WAW/MLCW/WW, and it stop an impending divorce. That's not to say I haven't seen other steps taken to bust a divorce. I'm not trying to take the wind out of your sail. I just want you to get the right mindset about this whole process, in order to do the best you can to save your family.

It is going to take time, and things will look a lot worse before they begin to look better. Some couples physically separate, and even divorce, before they finally reunite. You have to be determined to learn what works and what doesn't work. For example, you said you've read a lot of self help books. If you've read very many books about improving the MR, then you may be charged up to become "Super Husband". You'll put on your SH cape at the end of your work day to do all the chores around the house, cook the meals, take care of the kids, etc. The problem with this approach is that it does not work in saving the M, or even improving it. The H who does his share, and at times even a little more than his share........is okay. It is never okay for him to do it all, everyday, and leave nothing for his wife (who is quickly gaining a sense of entitlement). That's just one example of what doesn't work.

Here's the thing, Chaz. You will probably want to put into action those things you should have done the past 16 years, but due to the delayed timing..... and the mindset your W has developed...…..those actions will not produce the results you may currently desire. Therefore, the first thing you need to do is focus on the man. This is your time to grow. This is the time to reinvent yourself, and change how you see yourself as a man...….thus affecting how she will see you. You must show self respect before others will respect you.

I encourage you to read the homework page Cadet sent you, and post every chance you get.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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