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Re: Cross countries separation EU [Re: Pack_19] #2880989
01/16/20 06:45 PM
01/16/20 06:45 PM
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hi both!

Thanks a lot for the support! Believe me I am trying to detach but it feels as if I have to keep this part of my brain focused on changing permanently that dark side of my that showed more and more often at home. That selfish person focused on making money and with the outburst of bad mood. What I am trying to say is that it does not feel as if ok the door is open and I am going to move on with my life. Instead it goes more like, we both failed therefore there are things of me I have to change and this is not like that time I stopped eating processed food, these are deep changes that go all the way into my perceptions of happiness and my role in the world.

I have a really good friend I write to every time I feel like contacting her. He keeps cheering for me to get to that business alike tone and contact attitude. I am getting there.

I am not going to be plan B for anyone, the only way we can make this work is with her full commitment and acknowledgement of the consequences this situation is having for both us and our children. In the same way that I fear D I fear the fact that time and distance will confirm it so I am trying to be consistent with my 180 so that at least my W can see that I respect her wishes and can have the kind of relationship she is demanding now. Sometimes I put too much pressure on me because I think the more she builds a life without me the harder it will be to give R a go. I am guessing that mentality does not help.

As I said I am serious about changing my mistakes and getting back in touch with myself but at the same time this also makes me think is the only way I can have a chance at saving my M at some point. I guess I am holding on to those times when she told me I was the problem and I had to change to think we will have a second chance and as you say that is an expectation I need to let go of.

I would love to somehow break her expectations for me, do something she would never expect and stop the hatred dynamics we are into. I just dont know how to do it, as you say, if I contact her it is pressure, if I go dark I am neglecting my children and becoming the fun parent...

Definitely the hardest thing I have ever had to do and yet the most important!

thank you all!


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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
Re: Cross countries separation EU [Re: Pack_19] #2881022
01/16/20 11:18 PM
01/16/20 11:18 PM
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Posts: 53
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Pack_19 Offline OP
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hi all,

I just talked to my W on the phone about next weekend with the children. She has been talking again about how she is giving up too much and how even my parents ask for too much time with the children. I tried to validate and remain calm, I told her our time with them is all that matters and not to speak to me like with the contempt that she does. After this she replied that since we dont have a relationship anymore I have no right to talk about how she speaks to me and for some reason she ended up shouting that our relationship is dead and nothing is ever going to happen between us and that it was me who destroyed everything.

Now I should be detaching and this should not hurt me but you all know how it feels. The person you love the most is there shouting to you that your relationship is dead, that she has a life of her own now and she threatens to never ever call you again. What is the point of going throw this? Why am I trying to protect something no longer exists?

My W is dead set on the fact that we have no future. It has been a week and a half of no contact, I thought she would have calmed down a bit since then, it seems I was wrong.


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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
Re: Cross countries separation EU [Re: Pack_19] #2881132
01/17/20 04:56 PM
01/17/20 04:56 PM
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Posts: 53
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Pack_19 Offline OP
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I just re-read my comment. I know 3 months is nothing, week and a half is a ridiculous amount of time but I had to sit there on the phone yesterday listening to how I have destroyed our married, reacted to our domestic separation in a way that she should have called the police and now I am harassing her. I really cannot understand where all this anger is coming from but wow, WOW!

My W ended up yesterday saying we will only communicate over the email, all will remain a legal proof and that she has evidence that last 4 times I did not manage to fly on thursday for visitation (for those of you who know my sitch my W left to south spain and we were living in Germany and I have my job still here and could only find direct flights on Fridays) that would be valid for her to gain sole custody. Again, do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do but WOW. Obviously she totally brought me down yesterday, I was a wreck of nerves after this conversation and I ended up going to the hotel room for a bath and to sleep. She needs to cool down and I need to detach further, there is trust to regain, relationship to renew or topic to speak about that would bring us closer. How can I best recover after this big pushback?

thanks a lot guys! GAL and LRT are on again!
hugs! Paco


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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
Re: Cross countries separation EU [Re: Pack_19] #2881136
01/17/20 05:02 PM
01/17/20 05:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 6,547
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Steve85 Online
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Originally Posted by Paco_19
but I had to sit there on the phone yesterday listening to how I have destroyed our married, reacted to our domestic separation in a way that she should have called the police and now I am harassing her. I really cannot understand where all this anger is coming from but wow, WOW!


No. You didn't have to sit there on the phone.

"Excuse me, I have to go." Then hang-up.

People treat you the way you train them to. What ever possessed you to think that you HAD to sit there and take that.

She will never find you more attractive than when you are walking away.


M(50), W(51),D(16)
M-20, T-23 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Re: Cross countries separation EU [Re: Pack_19] #2881427
01/19/20 11:27 PM
01/19/20 11:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 53
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Hi Steve,

Thanks a lot for the reply. Yes I understand what you are saying. I guess I am not in a position to do that yet but better get there asap. She begun the conversation by shouting I have called to speak so you listen to me and keep quiet. Yes this is very unfair so I always think about validation at this point and my mindset is, I will listen to her.

On a different subject I just spent a great weekend with my children, we went to the aquarium and I had lunch outside with them. I can tell S6 notices how I am much better. He keeps telling me he wants to spend more time with me and asking about the new house. From time to time he will remind me of some bad memories he has from our domestic separation all the fighting and how nervous and impatient I was with him. You think being rejected by your W is hard until you hear that from your children and see how low you fell. I had become a shadow at home and even my son noticed. Trust me this is motivation to change many things but at the same time makes me wonder if I have some kind of sick side that will continue to try and show up when I lower my guard and times are bad.

All these thoughts have me hung up on self improvement books. I do not know how to give my W more space. The only thing I can think of is literally and I mean literally moving on myself. I know we have talked a lot about how my M is dead and I need to change myself but it is hope on a future with her that keeps me going. If I cannot think of a better 2.0 M with her or hope that she can love me again how can I survive all her attacks. some days I think she is really trying to hurt me, I dont say this in a victim way I really mean the things she says are intentional. But I know the man I want to be, the future I want to fight for and where to find support (here!).

Tomorrow I fly back to Germany and a new week will begin. The woman that married me thinks if I send her a TM I am harassing her, I have to laugh because it sounds like a joke.

I have a big question today, is it good or bad to try and have deep conversations with my S6 about how he is living this? I feel like doing it but he gets playful as if trying to avoid the topic. I want to be there for him, I am just not sure if he is too young to directly talk about his feelings.

Thanks a lot! GAL + LRT


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
Re: Cross countries separation EU [Re: Pack_19] #2881574
01/20/20 10:18 PM
01/20/20 10:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 53
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Pack_19 Offline OP
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hi all,

I have just arrived in Germany and needed to post because I am feeling like "?@%! I have spent like I said a great weekend with my children but I cannot help having feelings that they do not deserve a broken family and that I really screwed up. This gives me two things, the first is strength to be there for them and ensuring they feel they are worth of great love and attention and the second is motivation to keep looking into me for permanent change.

Yesterday the saddest thing happened. I was arguing with my mom because she keeps insulting my W and I have tried to talk her into how that does not solve anything and how determined I am to fight for my M. Anyway we got into a fight and I told her I would not speak to her for some weeks so that she can think about how serious I am about not tolerating that and my M and she started following me around in a bad mood trying to make me talk to her about how blinded I am to an imminent divorce. I dont know if that makes sense but the thing is that I did not like at all her behavior but I found myself identified on it as when we were living our domestic separation and I kept pushing my W to talk about us. I cannot go back in time but I have really messed up during our domestic separation. I have made the determination to stop any of that behavior and think intentionally about it when I see it crawling up inside me.

I do not see my W even to exchange visitation. She drops them at school, I pick them up, I drop them, she picks them up. I do not know if this is good or bad but it really feels like I have few opportunities to interact with her and when I do you have seen how dead set she is to destroy my self esteem and hopes for R. It has been 5 months since our domestic separation begun, a switch flipped on her head and our lives were changed and I still struggle with thoughts about it.

My S6 keeps telling me that he misses me and wants to spend more time with me. Maybe I did not fight hard enough for my M when we still were at home and signed too quickly that dreadful agreement. I remember my W used to tell me the only chance we had of a future together was if we had a good separation. Now I feel like I need to listen to her and give her what she wants, a polite relationship for our children.

My M is dead, I am working on myself but my W hates me right now. I dont fear divorce, I dont fear living alone, I just feel like the problems we had are not enough to break us apart this way. At least now that I see much better what I was doing wrong. Sometimes I think that staying faithful to our marriage and family now is the greatest love sign I can send her.

Thanks a lot guys for your answers and help! goodnight!
Paco


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
Re: Cross countries separation EU [Re: Pack_19] #2881693
01/21/20 06:07 PM
01/21/20 06:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,164
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Quote
Just yesterday to finish what I thought was a great conversation by email she reminded me how on the 4th of Feb we are supposed to confirm the separation agreement in front of the judge. I calmly answered, "thanks for reminding me W, I wish you a nice day". She always brings that statement or attitude that reads "our marriage is dead" in big capital letters.


Until things are determined in the separation, visitation with kids, etc., your emails should only be about scheduling for the children. Having a great conversation through email, may need to be placed on hold until later. Your W is too angry. She wants to lash out, and every time you attempt to extend the email into further conversation......it is going to trigger a negative emotion in her. It's as if she is on high alert status.......so you need to keep the emails short and simple.

The relationship between your mother and your wife is not good. I suspect that's why your W doesn't want to give your parents visitation time. The way I see grandparents having visitation time with the children (when there is bitterness with the WAS) should be figured into the total days/time for the spouse. In other words, let's just say that your W gets 182 days a year with the children, and you get the same amount of days. Your in-laws ability to see their grandchildren should be left up to your W, b/c their time would come out her 182 days. The same would apply for your 182 days. It should not be left up to your W as to how often the kids see your parents. She should not feel that she has to sacrifice any of her child time, in order to give your parents visitation. When you bring grandparents visitation into the middle of a messy separation......it only muddies the waters. When you have the kids, then you decide who gets to see them, and when it's on her time, she has the same right to choose who sees them.

You said your mother insulted your W. Did your mother express the insult to your W, or was she expressing it in your presence? If you become upset at your mother b/c she made an insulting comment about your W to you, it's b/c you still love your W. But your mother is not in love with your W. She sees your W hurting you, her son. The best way to handle this type of thing is to ask your mother to withhold her words b/c it is too upsetting for you. BTW


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: Cross countries separation EU [Re: sandi2] #2881719
01/21/20 08:00 PM
01/21/20 08:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,164
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Sorry, I did not realize part of my post went through before I made final changes. I missed the time slot to edit, so I will copy & paste my "redo".

Quote
Just yesterday to finish what I thought was a great conversation by email she reminded me how on the 4th of Feb we are supposed to confirm the separation agreement in front of the judge. I calmly answered, "thanks for reminding me W, I wish you a nice day". She always brings that statement or attitude that reads "our marriage is dead" in big capital letters.


Until things are determined in the separation, visitation with kids, etc., your emails should only be about scheduling for the children. Having a "great conversation" through email, may need to be placed on hold until later. That's not to say you should not be polite. Your W is too angry. She wants to lash out, and every time you attempt to extend the email into further conversation......it is going to trigger a negative emotion in her. It's as if she is on high alert status.......so you need to keep the emails short and simple.

The relationship between your mother and your wife is not good. I suspect that's why your W doesn't want to give your parents visitation time. The way I see grandparents having visitation time with the children should be figured into the total days of each spouse. In other words, let's just say that your W gets 182 days a year with the children, and you get the same amount of days. Your in-laws ability to see their grandchildren should not come by taking away your allotted time and giving it to them. Their time would come out her 182 days. The same principle would apply for your parents time coming out of your 182 days. It should not be left up to your W as to how often the kids see your parents when it's on your 182 days. Neither spouse should feel that they are sacrificing any of their 182 days, so that the in-laws have visitation time. Next thing you know, everyone wants a piece of the action.....aunts & uncles, next door neighbors...... smirk (JK) When you try to bring the grandparents allotted visitation into the middle of a messy separation......it only muddies the waters. When you have the kids, then you decide who gets to see them, and when it's on her time, she has the same right to choose who sees them. That's the only way to keep things fair, IMHO. Both of you are fighting to have control over how much time everyone has with the kids. This isn't about getting equal time with all the grandparents! Keep it as simple as you can.

You said your mother insulted your W. Did your mother express the insult to your W, or was she expressing it in your presence? If you become upset at your mother b/c she made an insulting comment about your W to you, it's b/c you still love your W. But your mother is not in love with your W. She sees your W hurting her son. The best way to handle this type of thing is to ask your mother to withhold her words b/c it is too upsetting for you. Don't punish your mother for loving her son and experiencing her own type of pain as a bystander in this mess. I'm not suggesting that you sit there and say nothing while your mother rages insults. You can always remove yourself. Do you think your parents would say something bad against your W in front of the kids? If so, then that could be a concern, and you may need to discuss it with your parents.

Quote
I will say this with my hurt, I do not try to use my children I just thought if there is a path to R is going to be through family activities and because of that I have put pressure on her with such plans. Again, mistake after mistake.


What I meant when I said I thought you use them.......is that you create an opportunity to talk to your W or spend family activity, b/c of the kids. You pressured her and tried to make her feel she had to do it for the kids. Personally, I see it so much in LBS's that I wonder if they are blind to it.

Quote
I know my 180 is going to be showing a happy and polite person when I exchange the kids AND being the first one to say goodbye. I want to ask, since I read yesterday about being surprising. What else can I do to catch her by surprise? what does she not expect? Would it be fine to make an innocent joke about her?


No, I do not recommend that you joke about your W. Her emotions are not in good place, so you making jokes about her......is not a good idea. Give me an example of how you joke about her, maybe I am not getting a clear picture. In the meantime, I suggest that you don't try to get a particular reaction from her. I'm concerned this desire to get a particular response is unconsciously tied to your need to control.

When a couple is experiencing a physical separation and their emotions are all over the place, the best 180 the LBS can do is to let go of applying pressure to the WAS. You see, the WAS senses when the LBS lets go, and therefore, the tension begins to settle. As I said, she is on high alert, and she knows you are trying anything to keep her tied to you. She knows when you are trying to manipulate her feelings. I support you showing a polite person who is in charge of his own emotions, and being the first to say goodbye (as if you have something exciting planed). This brings me to the part of showing happiness. Don't misunderstand and think you are suppose to act like a comedian or clown. smile For now, just show a positive attitude and it will naturally imply that you contain an inner "happiness" that does not completely rely upon her. Make sense? She may be curious, or not, as to why you suddenly act this way. Again, have no expectations.

The more intense 180's will be the inner work on yourself, b/c you don't like to be unattractive and you want to reclaim the man you once were. 180's can be very private work, which has nothing to do with the MR......other than you now see why you need to change some of your ways......especially in your interrelationships. ((hugs)) At the moment, you want to do all these things with the hope of impressing her to come back to the MR. It takes the LBS a little time before they finally let go of getting some positive reaction from the WAS, and just do the 180 b/c it is great for themselves.

Quote
I have not listened to her because I was scared, I was scared to lose her, to end up in D, to bear the pain of seeing her with someone else, to miss the childhood of our baby. I never stopped to say, hey, remember that charming man you have always been? bring him back and be the greener grass. When my W said, I do not want to talk to you, I heard our marriage is over and my instinct was to act as if replying "no, not until I decide it is". I can only give her the best incentive to come back and I know that is only going to happen if I truly listen to her and you all.


We know you are scared. It's only natural to feel all type of emotions when you are losing your family. Currently, you are being honest with yourself and are able to take a hard look at your mistakes.

Quote
Since this nightmare began, it has been 3 entire days now that I do not write to her. I never spy on her newly created IG with a new username and I have made a strong decision to not suggest more family plans as in I will be in the park feel free to join. I was reading the chapter about cheese-less tunnels and thinking, my God, this is so me.


That's progress!

Quote
I wish my W knew I now have a lot of new tools I am learning from you, I wish she knew I know R is slow, hard and only towards MR 2.0 but it is not my job to tell her. Let's hope one day she will see it. Please keep posting here, you guys are my oxygen. I will do the same, I am taking stage now and I need to monitor if my 180 works. If it doesnt, I will need help with new ideas!


Again, this is not uncommon to want the WAS to see your hard work. The purpose of this board is to support each other and try to pass along something we've learned.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: Cross countries separation EU [Re: Pack_19] #2882621
01/27/20 11:10 PM
01/27/20 11:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 53
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Pack_19 Offline OP
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Hi Sandi,

Thanks again for coming by to my thread, it is always fantastic to be able to speak to you (hugs)! I just read about your health, hope you the best recovery and that it is only minor!

I do not need to have control over her, I have accepted she is a strong independent woman and I cannot decide whether she chooses me or not, I feel like there is more I can do to slow down her dynamics. I mean it with respect to the distance that there is between us now. I am here in a different country, she is there and I only get time with my S6 over video call. I keep thinking that it is the perfect situation to dig things back and never look again (for my W I mean).

Yes my W and my mom never had the best relationship. My mom never really let loose of me and my W takes that as a lack of independence on my side and a wish for her to interfere in my life. I have told my mom time and time to respect her but sometimes I just have to leave the room. I know she is hurting because she loves me but she should be a stone for me, not someone who tells me I am never going to get my W back, that I am ridiculous with my M books and similar things.

I have developed a sense of inner happiness again and I know I am not supposed to be a clown around her is just about feeling proud of the man you see in the mirror. I only asked those silly questions about the jokes because I have always been funny to her (at least when our R was great) and I could tell she enjoyed laughing with me. I went yesterday to the Porsche museum, being surrounded by all those racing cars (my greatest passion) was like a breath of fresh air, I took tones of pictures, looked into every corner of all the cars, touched some of them (Germans no like that) and I bought 3 books at the museum store. It was a great day to find myself again, I had stopped pursuing my passion for racing and that is a big part of my happiness. It is actually part of what attracted my W to me, having such a strong passion and determination to live it in my life was attractive to her and she told me many times.

Today has been the X day. My lawyer wrote to me to confirm contacting the one we used for our separation agreement and I gave her the green light. I need to talk to her but while I was having dinner with a friend I got 2 missed calls from my W. Innocently I asked if that was my son, I said I was busy and promised to call tomorrow. But I know that was her, I know. If I did not have enough with fighting a battle for my M now she is going to say again that I am unfair and selfish and that I should not move to the same country because we have no future and can never be happy together. I fear talking to her, I was having a low moment so I had to come and tell you all. I have only my books and I need help. If she comes in fury to me about the 2 lawyers, how should I react? what if she brings D back up? I want to tell her look I love you and want to R, I am doing this for the children and because I am moving back so we need to change it, but my feelings about our M remain firm.

I am living huge internal conflict. I am 100% confident I can fix my issues and with some cooperation we could have our M back but at the same time I know all is on her hands and I do not deserve a second chance after having hurt her repeatedly with my selfishness. I want our original relationship back and I want my children to have that as an example of a healthy marriage, but I feel like she will never open to me. I am becoming the man I want to be, I am maturing and starting to value the things that really matter in life, I know because my attitude towards other people, money and life is changing. I love this, why on earth did I not listen to her and come here and bought all the books I have earlier?

On the other side I put the phone aside while having dinner with my friend because I wanted to disconnect and it made me unavailable and unreachable to her, good point for my GAL and LRT!


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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
Re: Cross countries separation EU [Re: Pack_19] #2882745
01/28/20 04:39 PM
01/28/20 04:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 53
Spain
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Pack_19 Offline OP
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Pack_19  Offline OP
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hi all,

I am having another terrible day. I will talk to my lawyer later this afternoon but the feeling just does not go away. If someone could read my post above and give me some advice it would mean the world to me.

Thanks a lot and sorry to feel so needy, I really could use some support right now.

all the best!


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Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6 yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
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