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Originally Posted by BluWave
My being a tad sensitive has nothing to do with the male energy of pumping one another up to be more alpha. No idea how you made that direct connection. I wasn’t a tad bit either, I was extremely. My H didn’t just have a couple EAs and turn around after a couple months. He had a very long EA with a best friend and then picked up and left me for her for a year. It also happened when my father died and my teen daughter was diagnosed bipolar, and while he was gone I had to send her out of state. I think that warrants sensitivity, as other things do for a lot of our posters. I didn’t want 2*4s, I was trying to get through each day. That’s why I chose not to post. But I still read here and people were not as harsh or argumentative.

In terms of what constitutes sexism, well I could talk about that one all day. But I’m not going to. Why would I? I’m from a very different part of the country and the community that I live in has different values and a different way of communicating. I don’t want to argue or spend time here discussing it because that is not what this forum is even for. But I certainly cringe when I see people on the boards carelessly tell one another to man up, be more alpha, go fire a gun, get your balls back, etc. Not all posters want to read that macho advice nor does it benefit all them. I do think at times there are people that really can benefit from having firmer boundaries and standing up for themselves, or doing more GAL, but this can be said in many different ways.

I really do not agree that most men are having Nice Guy Syndrome, I really dont. I have read the book and it fits my own Hs character 100% . I think I have a good understanding of how it happens and how it can hurt a M or any relationship. I don’t see how those same qualities can be attributed to most of the posters here. I think people want to see that. It all fits into a mold of being wronged by the WAW/WW. I think it’s more beneficial to understand where he could have gone wrong than make that assumption.

And again, I’m here feeling like I need to defend myself. I don’t know that there is much point to this. Have you ever read any of starskys posts? He gave the best advice and was a gem to these boards. I don’t see posters like him much anymore. So my only point to posting is that I can see some of No worries points. Things have changed. There are people here that entitle themself to advise people, and sometimes 100 times a day. Entitle isn’t necessarily a bad word, but they really believe they are able to understand and help.

The culture is different IMO. Just the very fact, Steve85, that you wanted to address all of my points and engage me in this, is an example of what I mean. Why not just accept my position for what it is? I see it differently. I liked the posters and culture more several years ago. I don’t read and post as much. That’s fine. Others will come and go too.

Blu


Blu, no need to defend. I do not see this as an argument, but a discussion. I truly apologize of it came across as argumentative.

But you're right. We're all different. And that doesn't make any one posters style, approach or sensibilities right..... Or wrong. Just different.

Good bless you and your family, Blu. I will pray for you as I do all of my fellow posters here.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
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I think we can do better at being more understanding. I personally know that if I came off adversarial, it's because I was carrying my own pain and that came to the surface in a negative way. It's a problem for me that I am working on still.

So I can't really point the finger at anyone, as my hands aren't clean.

I too am one that gets a good chuckle out of false machismo. I'm a more emotional man, and I don't know if that's due to my horrible father raising me or if it is truly who I am. Every day I try to actually decide for myself how I want to be on lots of things. I hate that I even have to think about it sometimes. But alpha bro stuff is pretty funny to me.

I think what's truly alpha is being unafraid to say just who and what you are. I had to laugh at my FIL and friend, as they made fun of a guy and said he needs to "get therapy". The next time I hear that one, I'm to mention that I have been in therapy for over a year and that I find it absurd that this is used as a joke. I am unafraid to say to my rural friends that I enjoy parts of living near a big city. I don't feel need to prove who is the "most country" and I always found it just as absurd as some city guys I used to play sports with trying to prove who was the "most gangster".

I'm going to do what I can to make this place better. I like the input that everyone has shared so far.

Many Worries - I hope you can continue to offer up suggestions. Thank you.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
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Originally Posted by BluWave
I recall some amazing vets that gave quality advice and support. Some that come to mind are Sandi, AS, Starsky, Wonka, and 25years, and many.... is the compassion and wisdom that they shared and it extended beyond the cookie cutter advice and rules that can be applied to any sitch. I do not recall them being confrontational and argumentative when people questioned them.
Starsky was amazing.

I make the assumption that posters want direction more than compassion. I wish I was better at differentiating between posters.


I wish we had more ladies giving direction. Blu, please don't leave...


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Thank you for the respectful dialogue. It pleases me and admittedly I am surprised, I think the most we can all do is keep being mindful, trying our best and also continuing to look at how we can change or make improvements. Once we face a potential conflict poorly, it becomes contentious, and then it is much more difficult to recover that than to have prevented it in the first place. I am headed out of town for the weekend. Take care everyone. ....

Blu


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Originally Posted by BluWave

I think we have taken our diagnosis of Mr Nice Guy way too far and I just don't buy into that. Not every LBH that comes here needs to read the book, become more alpha, and "get his b@lls back." It is getting out of hand and honestly it's kind of a gross exaggeration that feels sex1st. Not all men have been wronged by their W because she BD him, not all men need to become more "masculine" and certainly you all must know that that does not attract all women back. Not all women are attracted to the overconfident alpha male that can GAL like a madman! I have read this cookie cutter 100 times now and I don't agree it applies to everyone.

I am a self-diagnosed Mr. Nice Guy, and I do not take the message that I need to become more alpha or get my b@lls back. The primary message of that book that I took away is stop doing things to please other people and then hoping they will please you back.

Warning: Personal opinion to follow laugh

What NG's need to do is get in touch with their own values, stop doing things just to please other people, and start feeling better about themselves. My problem was not needing to become more alpha, or needing to become more attractive. My problem was that I didn't even know what I wanted, I was just falling all over myself trying to get my W to smile some days. And then I was thinking... "Look at how hard I'm trying, and she doesn't even care about me!"

I have no doubt she felt incredibly lonely. I was not a self-differentiated person with my own needs and wants. I was miserable, and it was my own fault. My communication skills were awful as a result.

You will note that none of those lessons I took from NMMNG have anything to do with gender. It is unfortunate, in my mind, that the NMMNG has a section that does come across as fairly misogynistic (IMHO), and is fairly tangential to the primary point of the book. Maybe others identify with it, though, and I understand everyone takes different lessons from the same material.

Anyways, this is just my own situation. It doesn't apply to every LBH here. The lessons I learned from addressing NGS apply to anybody, woman or man.

Three things have made me dramatically happier in the last 6 months: Finding this forum, addressing my NGS, and meditation/emotional awareness. That prescription won't necessarily work for anyone else, but it did for me.

I do agree in general that sometimes we (self included) jump to advice-giving mode too quickly, or assume we know what is going on in somebody else's sitch, rather than just offer some compassion and validation. Usually when I post I will specifically ask for advice when I seek it. Otherwise, it's just a sounding board, and really nice to hear other people (especially regulars who follow my thread) empathize and share their own experiences.

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Loving the open discussion smile

I am going to ask a question clarifying one of the threads, because I don't want to derail someone else's thread and confuse them more: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2868818#Post2868818.

Originally Posted by sandi2

...
Originally Posted by 44tries2
My patience has worn thin, and I cannot ignore the reality that this is happening again. She has even called me out on what you describe, waiting for her to call the shots and wait for her cue. But it is tricky in this case because she is the one who is initiating all of this. How can I take the lead? It does go against the DB principle of putting the focus on yourself and not the sitch. So what do you recommend exactly? How do I call the shots?


I thought I tried to address this subject last year. I don't know if it is me or you, but one of us is confused. You can't lead b/c it goes goes against the DB principle of focusing on yourself?

Well, you can throw out what I said in my last post, as well as this one.....if you don't agree with what I recommended. Just tell me, so I don't spend a lot of time with something you know you aren't going to do. smile
...



Do we think MWD's DB principal works equally as effective for LBH vs LBW? For LBH, doing nothing seems a bit passive, which may come off as not alpha / masculine / confident / lead? To be clear, I'm not suggesting anything contrary to DB, just trying to put together the different pieces of the puzzle smile

Having done some research, it does seem that WW are the toughest, and generally harder to turnaround than WH because WW are more emotionally invested by the time they are in an affair.

With that said, I have seen NC, time and space turn around the mindset of a WW... at least temporarily, even if it's false positive. So I know it DB works to take it from very negative to zero. It's hard to see when the inflection point will be to take it into positive territory.

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unchien, you bring up some good points. That book was life-changing for my H too. We can all learn something from having stronger boundaries, clearer communications and not making covert contracts. In life we all have to ask for what we want and not expect it.

LI,

These are really good questions that I am afraid do not have simple answers. I think you are onto something tho when you say that a WW might be harder to turn around than a WH, because she might be more emotionally invested. That was certainly the case in my sitch. My H came back to the M whereas X-OW did not return to her H rather she moved onto OM2. I also suspect she was more of a walkaway than simply wayward. I recognize that is a sample size of 1. So take that with a giant grain of salt.

Reading here, it seems to me that most of the posters are male and while the WAW is also Wayward, she is also more of a Walkaway. So I might suggest that it is not gender that determines likelihood of returning to the M, but the circumstances that led up to leaving. I think the longer the person has been "unhappy" or threatening to leave, the less likely they are to return. They are walking away from the M, whether there is an A or not.

We hear a lot of stories of women that have been saying (or not saying explicitly) that they are unhappy in the M for many years. By the time they finally leave, they feel freedom and relief. That to me constitutes a Walkaway. A WW (Wayward Wife) IMO is someone that is more running towards an A in a limerant or fog state, however they may not have intentionally planned on leaving. I think those people, female or male, are more likely to return. Eventually the limerance will end and they will see more clearly. Once out of the A fog, they might look back over their shoulder and reevaluate the M. Again, that was the case with my H.

Blu


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Sharing my view as a relative newbie, lurker, and someone who occasionally offers advice and support but more often than not sees his failure to save the M as a reason to not give others advice.

1) Some of the advice does feel "one size fits all" and direct - there is more "DO THIS" "SHE'S OFF DOING THAT" than "help me understand why you think that offering to watch her dog while she's out of town will bring her closer?".
2) Having said that, when I was spiraling (and even on days I'm not) the clear and direct advice gave me the confidence to change. As R2C and S85 will attest, I didn't always follow through right away but knowing the options, ignoring them, and seeing no change gave me hope that trying the options may yield a different result. Or, to put it another way, it gave me hope.
3). I've read the books (several times over) and, while they are great, they definitely feel more like a "do this, get that result" approach. I don't believe that we can all save our marriages. So, the tough love here, maybe it is a bit of a prep for life after D, but it also gives an element of control to the situation. I can be a better father. I can learn to cook. And so on. But not for my W, for myself.
4) I do see negativity and exasperation from some vets but I usually see it in cases where someone is posting non-stop (spiraling), getting advice, and then either agreeing to follow it and not, or straight-up rejecting it. It could be that I'm a guy but I'm seeking advice here, not emotional support, so I can understand why vets get frustrated and more direct the more their advice is followed
5) I've found immense help here
6) I'm very happy to hear that there are other perspectives and hope to hear more of them in the future.

One last thought: There are two pieces of advice I'd like to see shared more, and that is to consider the negativity that the WAW/WAH expects in a given situation and consider adjusting behavior (e.g. if when I get angry I stop cleaning the house, I should consider another approach) and that the WAH/WAW has a narrative about us in their minds: we need to disrupt that narrative in a positive way if we want them to see us differently. Otherwise they are on auto-pilot and everything we say/do (e.g. me writing long letters to my W) is cruised right over. Why this is important is that, when folks get the standard advice here, they may gravitate to what comes naturally (for example, I already work out, so the advice to work out as a GAL is not applicable). We were left as we are, s/he will return to us as we will be.

Thank you to all for participating in this board and on this thread!


M(35), W(35), D(4)
M-9, T-12 Bomb Drop (D announcement) - May 3, 2019
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Originally Posted by crdcheck
Why this is important is that, when folks get the standard advice here, they may gravitate to what comes naturally (for example, I already work out, so the advice to work out as a GAL is not applicable).


I really believe it is important for people to focus on the 180's in all kinds of different areas of their life.

I was full GAL when I was bomb dropped. My 180 was to be at home more.


For the introverts, you should learn how to behave more like an extrovert. Be extroverted for a time period. Then when both are natural, you can float anyplace between.


Same for the extrovert, learn to behave like an introvert.

Neither way of being is right or wrong, but life is much easier if you can easily change your behavior depending on the conditions.


Talkers need to learn how to listen well. Listeners need to learn to speak more.

Co-dependents need to learn to be happy alone.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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My own thoughts on some of the issues raised here, and on some things that occur to me, in no particular order:

First, blu:

Quote
I am okay with people not agreeing with my position and what I write here, but I am not interested in arguing about it or arguing with any of you. It's just not a good use of time. I am only here for one reason. I am here because my BD was the hardest time in my life -- my sitch was extreme and not just a little bump in my M or brief parting or ea -- and the lovely vets and these threads 5 years ago kept me going in those very dark days. So I share my story for anyone that can take comfort in that. I also look for people here that may need something that I can offer them. That's it. I am not here to be right, to tell anyone they are wrong, to tell someone that they have to do something, or to cause any more fear, shame or hurt. If you are reading this and even questioning yourself and how you post, then I hope you will at least spend more time and thoughtful care as you post moving forward.


I thought this was a really valuable post overall, and not just the part quoted above. Thank you for it. I particularly like the emphasis on remembering what we are doing here. Yes, alot of us are here to find help ourselves, in dealing with our own personal situations, by finding folks to listen and provide support, and, if possible, to save our marriages. But when we venture forth onto others' threads, no matter how much that process may be a learning one valuable for our own situations, it is important to keep in mind that the person on whose thread you are posting is in a dark, hard, place, just like you are (or were) and that they, too, need help... and that due to the variations in everyone's situation, the help they need may not be exactly the type of help you needed. Advice can be a dangerous thing, and, as both an advisor and as the advised, i always (these days, at least) try to keep in mind that 1) everybody's situation is different but that 2) you can usually find some grain of commonality or helpful advice even in the most seemingly different situation. The key is being able to find those areas of commonality, both when you are providing advice/support to someone, and when you are reading other folks' advice to you.

Second... Yes, temperaments vary widely on here, as they do everywhere. We are all human. Some people are more frank than others, some more confrontational, some more nurturing, etc. Also, Interacting on social media or via email or via any electronic media for that matter is hard... You are lacking inflection and body language and expression and, in many cases, context. The written word has a natural tendency to come across as colder... more abrupt. Misunderstandings and ruffled feathers occur. I always tell my boys this: Don't type it to someone in an email or text or on a chat board if you wouldn't say it to their face, and on the other side if someone types something to you that angers you, don't automatically assume they meant you ill.

I will say that, yes I, as i have seen others mention on this thread, was angered on a couple of occasions by posters being what I thought was too confrontational-- in particular taking what i thought were "shots" at my W after we were (or at least after i THOUGHT we were, lol) on the road to reconciling. (For those not familiar with my sitch, i did in fact DB/save my marriage, and my W and I are pretty much fully reconciled now-- prolly better than we have ever been.) But in the end you can try to understand where others are coming from-- when ones MR has been ended by an unfaithful spouse, and NOT reconciled, those scars can be life-altering, can last a looooong time, and, yes, can impact, for better or worse, one's outlook on life, love, marriage, and how an unfaithful spouse should be treated. Doesn't mean you need reject those folks' suggestions out of hand-- there are cautionary tales for them to tell, and their experiences are as valuable as the folks who didn't "make it through" to reconcilliation. You just need to know how to separate the wheat from the chaffe, and it also helps to try to thicken your skin up and have some patience with others.

Third, i, too, have noticed the M/F "skew" on this site, and it has been noted by others, as well (Even Sandi2, IIRC). It's a larger sociological question, obviously, and i have heard it discussed by Esther Pearle as well, but for some reason, as infidelity has increased in general, the rate of INCREASE in infidelity by wives/women has outpaced the rate of increase by men. Perhaps a bit of a catch-up... whatever. For whatever reason, the syndrome Sandi2 identifies as the "Wayward Wife" seems to predominate on this website. I have never done a tally but I'd bet that 75% of the "cases" on here are LBHs, and, of those 2/3rds or more involve WWs-- women in the throws of an emotional or physical affair who have decided "enough is enough" with their MR and are going through all the stages and steps and scripts that seem to be drawn from a common playbook. I am NOT saying women are more prone to cheat when i say this... just that it shows up WAY more than any other pattern on this website for some reason. As such, the testosterone level probably gets a little high sometimes, but i think the women do have something valuable to offer the men and vice versa. Some of my most valued mentors on this site have been women-- Sandi2, artista, ginger, 25yrsMLC. Having said that-- I am a firm believer that men gotta be men. And by this i don't mean the blustering, swaggering, "bro" caricature that has been mentioned, but rather a strong, confident, assertive (not necessarily aggressive, though that has its place in rare instances), capable MAN. Not a lunkhead, a MAN. We're very different than women, and that's a very good thing... for both sexes.

I certainly can't speak for all women or even most women. All i can tell you is that my life experience has been that the majority of women I have encountered in social or romantic spheres have been significantly more responsive (not submissive, but responsive) to alpha male behavior. And, again, by "Alpha" i dont' mean domineering lunkhead behavior, but strong, confident, assured behavior and interaction and leadership. I've seen it with myself, i've seen it with friends, and I have seen it most recently and especially with my wife (who is herself a strong and outgoing personality and a high sex-drive woman who can be, herself, forward at times). When i rediscovered my inner "alpha"... which i had lost somewhere along the way, the difference in my W's attitude toward me changed profoundly. The keystone moment here obviously being when i had had enough of her WW shenanigans and walked out, leaving her behind to continue pursuing my own life, which had become quite awesome by then-- but i continue to see it to this day. One trap into which i had fallen over the years was indecision, overanalyzing, etc. I don't even remember exactly what it was but a few months back someone texted me to do something when W and were sitting on the couch together (she saw the incoming text) and i immediately dicated back "Sure, see you in 30 minutes." Her eyes got wide and she leaned into me saying... "Who ARE you... look at you all decisive now!" Long story short, i did NOT make it to meet my friend in 30 minutes... it was somewhat later than that. AT ANY RATE... this is not to say that i think one, man or woman, is better than the other, or that women cant be leaders... BUT... in matters of the heart, and i wholeheartedly agree with her here, Sandi2 has said over and over that woman cannot be amorously attracted to a man she does not respect. It is the loss of respect that is at the root of a WW's rebellion and mindset. Reclaiming one's "alpha" self can be an critical element in reclaiming such respect. If we jest with each other about "getting your balls back" well, that's what we men do-- significantly more often than not.... But i can allow that one needs to know one's audience, that someone who just got dumped just MAY not want to come here and hear that first thing, and that there is MUCH value in getting to know someone (at least insofar as that as possible here) before assuming that level of familiarity.

Fourth-- My pet peeve with this place was always the contingent who insisted that "There can be no reconcilliation without separation" and that "IF the process is ever to play out to reconcilliation, it HAS TO take YEARS" etc etc. Simply not true. Not with me, not with TxHubby, not with Sandi2. All reconciled. Yes, I left. Briefly. Two weeks. That had to happen. Yes, TxHubby effectively "separated" in-house (VERY difficult thing to accomplish). But neither required actual separation and neither took years. (I was 15 months from BD to full-on piecing/reconciling, but the "Active" part of the affair--an EA in my case-- was over less than 5 months after BD and we were making real progress just 9 months after BD). I say this not to call out the folks with this mindset (and, to be fair, there are probably at least as many cases where their pattern of reconcilliation holds true) but to again emphasize that EVERYONE'S SITCH IS DIFFERENT.

Fifth-- Pet peeve number two, and here I am agreeing with ManyWorries here: The "you can't hold out hope for reconcilliation" paradigm, also espoused as some form of "you must completely let her go." Yes, in some respects, this is true... namely that you need to make peace with the possibility that your MR MIGHT NOT survive, if you are to successfully DB. To me, however, to say you should abandon all efforts aimed at "saving the marriage" is nonsensical. This is, after all, "Divorce Busting", and MWD has made her career on saving marriages and busting divorces. I see no inconstancy in, on the one hand, making peace with all outcomes while, at the same time, striving within the parameters of DBing to save your marriage and, all else being equal, recognizing that as the desired outcome.

Sixth-- Yes, absolutely true-- reconcilliation/piecing can NOT begin and has NO HOPE while an affair of any sort continues. The affair has GOT TO end if the marriage is to be saved.

Finally, I have really valued this place, and people here. I think it's safe to say that, at one time or another, I have gleaned something useful from everyone who contributed to my threads, and several on whose threads i posted, even the ones with whom i frequently (and loudly, emotionally and, sad to say, sometimes obnoxiously) disagreed. My MR is reborn, better than ever, and i can say without a doubt that it was a blessing from God, and part of the only path that would have gotten me to where i am, that I was led to this site. I hope it continues in existence for many years...


H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18

"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7

"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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