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Originally Posted by DnJ
Refusing and missing 8 days of school in the last three weeks does point to something bothering him.


You might have forgotten this but D14 missed 75 days of school in 7th grade, maybe 40 in 8th and now in 9th has missed maybe 15 so far this year. So getting slightly better I guess. But back to being a daily h3ll for me every morning, trying to get him out the door takes hours. He is in his second special school because of his school refusal issues.

Originally Posted by Gerda
he really almost never did things to show me I was really special to him -- stupid things like special gifts for my b-day or bigger things like working extra to help dig us out of debt or so that I could buy myself a good winter coat while trying to be a full-time mom and run our business, etc.

Originally Posted by DnJ
He is a troubled man.


For some reason, this was the most comforting thing you have said to me in a while. Inside our own little worlds, it's amazing how validating it is to know that you see that, even though you and everyone here has made that clear many times over. I am doing that book on healing from cluster-B disorder abuse and am realizing how deeply confused I get -- not intellectually, but in my visceral response to everything. I am finally trying to do these healing exercises, all this time whenever you, DnJ, or anyone else here talks about healing, I have no idea how to do that other than via prayer. This book has some very practical visualizations, etc., and I am going start doing those this week.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Can someone go that crazy to desire to not just leave but actually destroy his family this viciously and that not be the "real" him?

Originally Posted by DnJ
I believe in possibilities. So yes.

A person could be so desperate that destruction of their life and family seems like the way out. Desperate people do desperate things.

Your H is doing it viciously, my XW did is expeditiously.

Your H is like my XW; this is the “real” him - at this moment. He behaves opposite of what once he did. He may find his way back, he may not.


So much to think about here. The hopefulness of yes -- I don't even know if I have that anymore. Lately I see myself as walking alone as I always did. I have been a loner since I was about 14, had lots of friends but loved to be alone, and I am realizing I don't have to be afraid of that. I can return to that force I had before. I am finding myself again the last week or two, via the healing and some work on my artistic stuff and realizing that there were many things about H that were precursors to this. I am remembering what a force I was before now -- maybe before H -- and looking back at so many memories where H was unhappy and I was trying to change our lives or work more or start a new venture or put something on layaway that he really wanted to make him happy again. I know I really loved him and I know I felt he loved me too. Right now it's hard to remember any of that part.

I do still believe that God can heal any of us of anything. I just don't know if H will ever be able to hear God to open himself to that healing especially because he thinks he is deeply in touch with God now and has many justifications for his shameful behavior towards me and the kids.

Originally Posted by Gerda
The mind is not easily fixed. The very thing that defines one’s reality is skewed and it takes time, fate, karma, and luck to put enough stimulus in their way to penetrate that foggy cloud of fantasy and slowly realize when and where they are. Not all have the fortune to met these in a timely fashion, nor choose to face them.


I don't believe in fate, karma or luck here, I must say. There is just free will and the will of God. I recognize now more than ever my powerlessness to do much of anything. It's helping me to put it all in God's hands. Even if God doesn't do it, like what Shadrach and Abednego say outside the furnace. The other day I realized that I oftentimes believe that there is a mistake and I have been left to rot in h3ll, but that via faith I have to know that I am not in h3ll. What I would be without God -- bitter, vengeful, angry, blame-fixated. So in a certain way, I am already tasting heaven even though I feel all the time like I am in h3ll and can't escape. My H believes he has finally reached heaven on earth; he can't even look around to see what has happened, that he is in fact living out H3ll on earth.

Last edited by job; 11/27/19 04:30 PM. Reason: edited language

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Hi Gerda, I saw DnJ's list above. Yours is vicious, his was fast, and mine is (I don't know, maybe torn). I agree though. Each has their own special flavor.

You may not feel it, but I do think you are sounding better. Because you have lived this for so long, I think after you get through this last part, you will move from loneliness, to contentment, to happiness. I know you will.

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You are a deep thinker, Gerda. I enjoy chewing on your updates. Lots to consider. I'm in the process of catching up on DnJ's old threads and yours are next on my list.


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Hello Gerda

I am glad my words provided some comfort. And yes, I definitely see your H as the troubled man and tormented soul he is.

It’s nice to see you are finding some practical visualization on healing. It sounds like that book is making quite an impact.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I know I really loved him and I know I felt he loved me too.

That is some fine intellectual reflection. Write it down for later.

Feelings will sometimes say differently. Read it during these times.

Thoughts and feeling will influence one’s beliefs.

Make that thought a belief within yourself. You know it is true, it happened. Our histories are immutable and we do “know” them. This can be a strong force and conviction.

For me, that is a key piece of my compassion, understanding, empathy, and forgiveness. It’s more than I know my XW loved me and I her. I believe it - and that is beyond feeling and knowing.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I don't believe in fate, karma or luck here, I must say. There is just free will and the will of God. I recognize now more than ever my powerlessness to do much of anything. It's helping me to put it all in God's hands.

Oh, if you and I could just sit across from each other at a table, what discussions we would have.

What if fate, karma, or luck is just God asserting his will on someone who is stubbornly asserting their free will. Well not so much a direct action by God, more an emergent affect that comes about from one seriously deviating from the path.

I look at raising my kids when they were young. I love them and I had desires for them, a will I would like to see, a path for them. My “will” was not thought out to the small details of their lives. It was a more general higher looking stuff.

Perhaps God’s loving us and raising us in a similar manner; a much more complex and thoughtful plan I am sure. Still high level enough for one’s free will to have meaning. For chance encounters to happen, randomness, luck, and such.

Sorry, straying into a theology discussion. Possibilities - this is me. There are many. And at my core, I love possibilities - it’s where hope lives.

For what it’s worth, I believe in God’s will and free will. Putting H in God’s hands is a very good path to take.

I am so glad you are tasting heaven and realize it. There are many blessings and gifts along this path, such an incredible opportunity, one that most people will never get to know. Makes me sometimes ponder whom we should really feel sad for.

DnJ


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Gerda Offline OP
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DnJ, I will reply later-- just got back from a really good Thanksgiving trip to see cousins, my father, an old and very good friend. My kids got to be around my cousins kids, including a very cute baby, and it was just so good for them.

But one thing I would love to get some responses about from everyone here --

You may remember that I wrote to my MIL when H moved out, explaining that I couldn't live with someone who was divorcing me but always wanted to be in each other's lives and hoped we could come to see her soon as we always did. It was always me keeping her in our lives and funding trips -- esp after BD when she stopped coming because she said it was too upsetting. And she wrote back that it was both my and H's selfish choices that led to us screwing up our lives and that she wanted nothing to do with us, but that maybe one day if H healed his R with the kids, he could bring them to her -- and until then, she would pay for tickets for them to come to see her because both kids needed to get away from me and H. Added that H would always be their blood. Basically said that she never wanted to see me again. I have known her and loved her since I was 23, even though she can be difficult at times -- and also she became very political and turned against us a little from that as well, though I never bring anything up, it is a big deal in her life so she looks down on us as "liberals." She was with us constantly after S was born, then over the years off and on and slowly less as H started spiraling. I am 48 now, so that's 25 years she was throwing away and I think thought she could finally be alone with my kids without me.

Neither of my kids wanted to do that. Both wanted to see her, esp D10, but neither wanted to be away from me to do it. And D10 keeps telling me that H wants to take her to see MIL and I have been terrified about it. D10 told H she would go for a couple days but not for 5, she didn't want to be away from home that long, and H said it wasn't worth going in that case. D10 was as usual pretzeled by the whole thing. The in-laws are in FL and I was thinking of trying to take them to another city in FL on vacation; I thought that if I do end up there, I'd let MIL know she could come to see them and I might even offer that they could go to her house for a night or two but I also thought I should do nothing of the kind and not open up any cans of worms this early.

And obviously I do not want them around such hateful people though when she wrote that letter, I did write back to her that she was wrong about what had happened but that if she ever changed her mind, she was always welcome in our lives.

Never heard from her after that and she started sending her packages (she always sent the kids packages a few times a year) only to H's apartment. But after a while I think she realized she would never reach S14 that way, so she sent one to my house, and she included some gifts for me in it. I wrote to thank her and we had one exchange but nothing particularly warm from her and no more from her after that.

So today D10 asked to call her from my phone while we were traveling, of course she had to leave a message and text because MIL didn't pick up since it was my number-- and MIL called back. While they were talking, MIL asked to speak to S14, and shockingly he said yes and spoke to her for a few minutes. I don't think he spoke to her since May, when H moved out and she sent that letter. After he told me that MIL said she just wanted to see S and D because "Papa (meaning H) is driving me crazy." And I said "Oh really, wow!" in a hopeful way thinking that maybe I could take them to a place near her and let her know she could come and see them. And then S added that that MIL said she would pay for tickets for them to come to her. I wasn't thinking that clearly as a wave of hurt washed over me, and we were just walking in to a place to meet my father, so I burst out, "Well she can't just make visitation with you! I am the custodial parent! She is going to have to talk to me about it!" And S got a very hard expression in his eyes and said, Yes she can, you can't stop us from seeing her. And I said, "I want you to see her, but there is a visitation agreement, she can't just make her own rules and arrangements without talking to me." And then we met my father and I excused myself and went into the restaurant bathroom and cried my head off.

Later I told my father about it, and he thought I should not allow them to go because it seemed like such an unhealthy environment. And it is an unhealthy environment-- I was always there to deflect the various troubles one could encounter there -- including extreme racism and the alcoholism of my FIL, rifle in the corner to hide when we got there, etc. We do have lots of good times there but I definitely feel like I have to be there. And my kid do not like to be apart from me for more than a night or two -- right now S can't even be without me for a night without having a panic attack. But if she really offered them tickets and I said no, the kids would definitely see me as the bad guy. And I do want them to stay connected to grandparents, even if they are not the best people -- I just get really tied in knots about not being there to protect the kids from some of the craziness. And of course I am very hurt about it and picture the idea of putting them on a plane to send them into that household that caused so much trauma for H all those years. I think what I mean is that all families have their darknesses, and that I was okay with the kids being exposed to it but not with leaving them there without me. And all these years, H never wanted to see them without me either, he felt that he needed me there to not get crazy around that residual trauma. H was also helpful to have around my family for similar reasons, though not as intensely needed!

I am of course already worrying about something that may not come to pass. I kind of doubt that S would follow through on actually going there without me, but I want to be ready with what I really do when the time comes. So I would love to have a bunch of you chime in on this one!

XO from Gerda the day after Thanksgiving, very very thankful for all of you!


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Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Gerda Offline OP
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P.S. S14 brought it up again tonight during our usual late-night talk. But this time said that what MIL actually said was, "Mama and Papa are driving me crazy, so I just want you and D to come."

I told S that I did not think it was a healthy environment there but would not mind if he went for a night or two and that I felt really sad and uncomfortable that she would talk badly about me to my kids in that way, that what was best for the kids would be to see their grandparents without that kind of talk going on. He said he didn't really want to go anymore but said, "You poisoned me against it now." I tried to explain that I wasn't trying to do that and wanted him to see his grandparents and wasn't sure what to do but just knew that this was not very healthy. I started to explain my FL idea but then he switched the topic -- e.g., shut it down.


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Gerda,

I am very happy to read that you and the children had a nice Thanksgiving and were able to spend it w/family.

Now, let's visit the MIL situation. First and foremost, what popped into my head was...how in the world could you afford a trip to Florida and when you are having financial difficulties at this time. Yes, you want your children to visit their grandparents, but you continue to talk about your finances and trying to scrape funds together to pay your bills.

I certainly would not send the children down there by themselves and if you had the money and could make the trip, I would stay in the area and advise the in-laws that you are coming down and will be staying at a hotel (give the hotel name) and the dates. You could tell them that they are more than welcome to visit w/the children, but they will be spending their nights at the hotel.

As for your son having the impression that the in-laws can set visitation is a concern to me. I may be wrong, but he sounds like he's in the stage of rebelling against rules, etc. Of course, teenagers are like this, but I get this impression he's having a very difficult time understanding what a person in authority has the right to say or do when it comes to making decisions that are in the best interest for him and his sister. Do you sense that he doesn't respect you or your decisions?

Your son has missed a bit of time from school. As an incentive to get him to go, why not suggest a possible trip to FL in the spring or early summer if he goes to school every day unless he's absolutely sick? As a mom, I know you want to do everything possible to give them a happy home life, but you shouldn't reward either of them when they have exhibited bad behavior. Just my two cents.

A trip to Florida is a nice idea, but unless you find a goose that lays golden eggs, I do not see where you can pull out enough money to go down there for a few days at the moment. That's just my opinion from reading about your financial woes. Maybe a trip in the spring or early summer would be a better idea????



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Hi Gerda,

I agree with Job. I wouldn’t let the kids go on their own either. I’m also a little concerned by S use of the word “poisoned”.

It’s a strange word to come out with and sounds like he’s heard the term too many times...maybe from your H?

I think your kids have been through the mill enough without hearing negative opinions of you from your MIL, especially if they stayed there and FIL was tanked up after a few drinks.

I would do as job suggests and stay in a nearby hotel. Then S can never accuse you of preventing him from seeing his GP’s.

It’s one thing after another isn’t it. My thoughts are with you Gerda....I don’t know how you haven’t cracked up by now.

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Hi, Job-- Thank you for weighing in! About paying for it -- I would rent out my own apartment to pay for it. I can only go if i rent out my apartment for the dates I want to go, that's why the meeting with Grace is up in the air! This is how I have paid for any trips I ever take. Me and my kids almost never go anywhere as a family but S14 is starting to spend more time with us so if I can cover the cost with a rental I would try to do it. Ticket prices are going up up up the closer we get so it might not happen if I don't get the dates I want to go rented at my own place!

I think my main question is more how to deal with MIL. She obviously has no clue how divorce and visitation works, but I think if I try to explain it to her, she will just be driven to get my H to take them, my son will refuse to go, and then H will take my D alone. I am trying to figure out how to detach from her the same way I do from H but in a way that is best for the kids. What you advise seems to touch upon that-- but are you saying that I should purposefully go to their city? I wasn't going to do that. I was going to go to another city that is a couple hours from them. I think it would be way too much both for the kids and just in terms of appearing manipulative to go to their city. But do you mean to just ignore what she is doing as far as trying to get the kids to work with her directly? And to not say anything like, "Please don't disparage me to my kids?" Generally I try to be really Christ-like with her, saying not much but always being kind and on point. As we know, I often get confused! But my fear is that I will try to do something strategic and make it worse.

About S and the school issue -- I hear you but S's school issues are part of his diagnosis -- ODD, ADHD, etc. Therapy has helped but his school refusal is part of his diagnosis. It would be a little bit like never taking a trip with someone who was dyslexic in order not to reward her when she struggled to read. And the types of consequences that work on D do not generally work on S. I do my best with consequences with him but it is a real battle that anyone with a kid with ODD will understand! And obviously the MLC was a massive trigger that has caused endless ripples in that regard. S goes to a special private school that the DoE pays for because his issues are so severe. H always denied that there was any problem and said that I was "denying S's destiny" by trying to get him to go to school! I don't think he even knows where S goes to school now!

Last edited by Gerda; 11/30/19 04:35 PM.

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Also, I know what you mean about me having the authority to choose what is best for the kids, but the problem is that H and MIL are feeding them so many weird ideas about me and about what is possible/allowed/okay that I am always battling a false narrative. I don't want the kids to think I am keeping them from MIL either.


I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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