Relapse and Lost Progress

[44tries2]

Yes. In fact, I do not really believe that I am the reason for her unhappiness. She definitely has her own issues and also more than one instance of trauma that she has never really dealt with. She is very closed off and there are things she won't talk to ANYONE about. It does play a big role, maybe even the biggest, but I can't control it. The best thing I can do now is lead by example and get my own IC.

So I knew this would happen. Obviously W changed plans and is driving home. But she failed to book a hotel. She was within one hour of arriving at her stop and still hadn't booked it. Not my problem, but I knew she would come crawling wanting me to do it. "The app isn't working, I have bad service". Hint hint. I told her at this point the price isn't changing within the hour and she can book it when she arrives.

[44tries2]

She also said she didn't want to unload all our gear. Again, should have thought about that before you declined to have my help. I validated. In response she says I'm sorry I didn't mean to bother you with it and frustrate you. What?? I forgot about all the weird games and tests she is going to throw. Deep breaths.

[44tries2]

W came home yesterday. First she gave me a hug and said she was sorry about my grandpa. Then she stripped off her clothes and got in the bath. Last BD, during the A, she immediately would no longer allow me to see her naked. I guess this makes sense, if she was "with" someone else.

She read aloud "to herself" every text she received since she got here. I think it is clear she does not want me to think there is another A. But she could just have gotten a lot smarter. She has not taken her ring off like last time. She did not bring up any R talk. She wanted to order take out and watch TV. She got a pillow from the guest room and went to sleep right there on the couch.

I have no idea when she is going back to work. She had this week and next off as leave, which probably hasn't changed. I really do not know anything.

[Thornton]

Hmmm, I'm skeptical that she is overcompensating by trying to prove she's not having another A. Time will tell.

It's important for you to "act as if" you are doing well and moving on with life. Don't be a jerk but don't follow her around the house like a sad puppy either.

Get out of the house and GAL as much as you can while she's there. She might wonder what you are up to.

And lastly, avoid R talks for now. That will only serve to reinforce how she's currently feeling. If she starts a R talk, just listen and validate.

[44tries2]

I am skeptical too. Last time she was SO bad at it, I almost think she wanted me to know. Time will tell indeed.

All excellent tips, Thornton, and you nailed it. That should be my plan right there. I can certainly avoid R talks, my confusion is how to keep consistent about not being okay with all this. I said I wanted space while she was gone. Now, I don't want to undermine that. But I also know I can't just launch into an R talk about how I'm so angry with her behavior. I don't want to be the wet noodle anymore.

Like you said, GAL and don't be around is the easiest. My W will be so nosy. She already asked me why I didn't say I was going to bed last night. Oh boy.

[sandi2]

Hi 44, I'm sorry to see you back, but truthfully, not surprised. I don't think it's so much that you failed, but b/c your WW has not changed and did not do anything (that I can tell) to repair the damage she caused the MR. You had a false reconciliation, and I believe it was due to her manipulation (wanting to constantly call the shots and to be in charge of you) and her unwillingness to address her issues Toward the later part of your previous threads, you were having to call her out about her disrespectful behavior/attitude, almost on a daily basis. I could sense the toll it was taking on you. She wore you down.

Let's call it by its real name..........abuse. She mentally/emotionally abuses you. The two of you go on several trips and have fun, but it is not enough to sustain the every day relationship. I think she is capable of treating you in a honorable fashion, but she doesn't want to. She has drafted you into her personal military, basically for the empowerment she feels from ordering you around. Last time, she even tried to isolate you from interacting with other people or making friends while living in a foreign country. She was very jealous and controlling when you tried to GAL, and trying to keep you separated from anyone other than her, sounds characteristic of a psychopath. Plus, she knows there is a mental issue connected to her past, but she firmly refuses to seek therapy for herself........and delays (IMHO) MC. I don't think MC will help until she sees a psychiatrist, but that's just me talking out loud.

IMHO, you need to decide what you want from your marriage partner and what type of relationship you want. Then evaluate your list and see if it is realistic. Decide what you are willing to tolerate and where you draw the line (boundaries).

Toleration is not compromising. I often wonder if some LBH's see themselves as compromising when actually they just tolerate the WW's disrespectful behavior. You have tolerated a lot of disrespect and manipulation. If you are willing to settle for a M where you have very little independence; and you are not respected as a man; and live with a dictator; then that's your decision. If you realize that it's not going to get much better than having occasional fun trips, then I suggest you stop waiting & watching to see if she's going to change for the better. Do you agree that has been your decision making handbook, so to speak, hoping she would eventually change?

Toleration is having patience in a situation. It's enduring a particular hardship......like a health issue, for example. We may tolerate another person's characteristic traits, as long as those traits do not dishonor our personal boundaries. If they step over that line, then it's up to us to protect our own feelings and self value. Make sense?

Our values, honor, integrity, respect, etc., should never be compromised...........not even to save a marriage. Now there are ways a couple will need to compromise in settling a dispute or views of opinion. I see compromising as a couple meeting each other half way. For instance, compromise in which house to buy, how much money to spend on vacation, who does which house chores, etc. However, we should not compromise that which makes us who we are.

I don't know that I have anything "new" to say, 44 Tries. However, I would like to support you, if I can. As you know, I'm not the Miss Sunshine of the Year type, but I will talk straight and tell you how I see things.

(((hugs)))

[44tries2]

Sandi, I am so so glad to hear from you. I have so much gratitude for all the advice you have given me. And I know you will always tell it to me straight, which I very much appreciate.

You ask me if my method is hoping she will eventually change...I suppose my answer is yes. I think my problem is when the MR is not being threatened by BD, I am so much more blind to her "abuse". The thing I am hoping changes during those times is her attraction to me, not necessarily her daily behavior. But if I was evaluating it as closely as I do when I post here, you would probably see someone being worn down and sticking to the status quo. It's difficult with the reversed spouse roles, I want to make her comfortable after a long day at work but then I am the errand boy again. If she isn't an A or BDing me, it feels more normal (acceptable?) to do these errand boy things given our household roles. In fact, these kind of things are what she expresses appreciation for more than anything. But I get it, she benefits so she feeds it and it all fits the narrative.

I will not disagree with you on calling it abuse. I may have said this before, but it was much worse earlier on. When we first moved in together...emotions were much more volatile (never physical though). She has changed miles from then. But she still calls the shots, dictates the mood, etc. That's the thing, it's not as if she has never made any effort to change anything. And there are times she has stated she wants to be better for me and has in some ways. Honestly, if this BD hadn't happened I would have said we were still making progress! Which is so discouraging that I was so off.

I couldn't agree more with your discussion on toleration vs compromise. I'm sure I've done both in this MR. As you said, the toleration is of the disrespect and manipulation. My endless patience is my own worst enemy. I do feel my respect has been compromised and it is not okay. I feel very angry, wronged, and exhausted. I honestly think I might be more angry now than I was about the A.

[sandi2]

Sandi, I am so so glad to hear from you. I have so much gratitude for all the advice you have given me. And I know you will always tell it to me straight, which I very much appreciate.

I am really glad to hear that, 44, b/c I wasn't sure if you'd want to see anymore posts from me.

Do you feel that it is the actual bomb drop that you fear the most? It's as if she gives you a BD reboot ever so often. Abusers play on the fear of their victim. I remember you once told (when you were living in that foreign country) that if you had to physically separate from her that you would be fine......as for as being a military spouse, plus having a source of personal finances, should you find yourself without a home, etc.

So, do you think that it is more of a psychological issue regarding the bomb drops? I can't remember if you ever said you suffered with abandonment issues due to something in your childhood. I really wish you had an IC to help you deal with your fear. What about your Pastor? Have you relocated to a church, since the move back to the states? You might receive spiritual encouragement, at the least. ((hugs))

I think my problem is when the MR is not being threatened by BD, I am so much more blind to her "abuse".

I think I can see how that could easily happen. You want to save the M, so you naturally welcome any sense of "normality", and probably relax or let down your guard. Who wouldn't? You are exhausted from the stress. Add that with you hope that she is conducting herself better for the purpose of improving the MR.........yeah, you get a bit comfortable, and then WHOP.....another bomb drop. She knows exactly how to manipulate your feelings, your actions, your every move. IDK if she has always been this way, or if it came after enlisting in the military, but she certainly appears to enjoy having someone under her command. And, as I stated in my previous post, I could see how she tried to isolate you and keep you from expanding activities that might actually be with someone other than her. IMHO, that's a red flag that signifies a mentally unhealthy person. It matters not the gender, it's still mental abuse.

But if I was evaluating it as closely as I do when I post here, you would probably see someone being worn down and sticking to the status quo.

I did see you wearing down, especially when your posting started shutting down. I'm glad to see you posting on other member's threads. It benefits you and them, plus you don't have to constantly talk about your own sitch, if you aren't in the mood. Anyway, I want to encourage you to stick with us, and if you get too tired to talk about it, take a couple of days off. Just please don't get completely away until things are much, much better in your life.

Referring back to your quote above, I think a lot of husbands just try to keep their heads down and go with the flow, rather than cause a ripple with the W. They bought into the mentality of "happy wife = happy life". This philosophy, if you could call it that, might be true as long as it doesn't cost the man his b@lls. Once his b@lls are sacrificed in the name of making the W happy..........any chance of attraction is automatically flushed down the toilet. He has become a eunuch! For the record, I'm not saying you have lost your male parts, b/c I saw you when you stood toe to toe with her and she backed down..........(she didn't back down enough), but I know you have what it takes for a woman to be attracted to you. I think your W challenges your male confidence b/c she gets some type of satisfaction in keeping you under her thumb.

It's difficult with the reversed spouse roles, I want to make her comfortable after a long day at work but then I am the errand boy again.

The man has something that attracts his counterpart........simply b/c God designed him that way. Same is true about the woman. Yes, when the traditional roles are reversed (as far as who is employed and who works at home) it can be quite challenging. Especially, in this day & time when so many women have very high stress careers, and/or who are in positions over others, especially over men. For women, as well as men, I think it's often a matter of changing hats when they go home to their spouse. However, I think it is harder for women, b/c they attach their feelings to every involvement in their lives. Whereas men can categorically separate their emotions/feelings from all the other areas that require their attention, time, hard work, etc., women are tied to these thing through their emotions.

As much pressure as women are to "have it all", (the lie from hell), there is no wonder that she is stressed to the gills by the time she comes in from work every evening. That's why many women need to vent when they get home from an exhausting day at work, b/c it's draining and frustrating to have feelings attached to most everything. If she can't or doesn't have sufficient time to shift gears or change hats, she'll likely go in bossing her H around like he is her employee, or she'll act like a b'tch on steroids, simply b/c she's spread too thin. The more stress & grind on her (be it her job; emotional issues from a family/friend relationship; finances; raising kids, having too many fires going at the same time; etc.), the thinner she is spread emotionally & it takes a toll on her physically.......... and something is likely going to breakdown. It's a matter of her having too much on her plate at once for an extended amount of time. Women are very strong creatures in their own way, so don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say. Woman is an emotional being, and it's not easy (maybe not possible) for her to categorically separate all the demands from her without her feelings being attached. Oh, she may appear to be on top of everything, and very good at what she does, but I'm talking about her inner makeup as a female. I make get flack about this, but I think it is a distinct difference in men and women. Men don't attach their emotions to everything, like women do, and let me tell ya, it can be exhausting. I think we would have less problems in intimate relationships, if women would stop expecting men to act & feel like women. Let men act like men!

I can empathize about the roles being reversed, b/c there were times I experienced it in my own M. I think the man can help with chores, cook, the whole shebang as good as a woman (unless it's the laundry..... ) What I think is key here........is that it does not take away from his masculinity. Observe a women working in the kitchen, then watch a man. Same job, but I find it somewhat amusing in the differential patterns. In other words, 44, as long as you don't look/act like a woman, I think it's safe to clean the house and cook dinner. As a woman/wife, she has to see your natural masculinity in everything you do. It should be second nature, but I think the roles tend to rob some people of their femininity or masculinity. Like certain careers in law enforcement may cause a woman to come across a bit less feminine, b/c she's got to have that outward toughness as much as the men. So, I think it works both ways, and if the man is a SAHD, he could lose his edge so to speak. Now, stay balance here. I'm not suggesting there are never times you don't show tenderness or whatever you might associate with female attributes. Your masculinity should still shine through, b/c you are a God created male. Just as you are attracted to the feminine side of your W, she is attracted to your masculinity. It seems it would be natural for us, b/c that's the way we were designed, however, as I described above, in our current lifestyle, we may need to take a refresher course.

In all honesty, I don't think a lack of masculinity is your problem, and I don't know how I got off into talking about all that stuff. I think she is a demanding type of person, punitive, controlling, manipulative, jealous, selfish, etc., and that's why some men refer to their W as the "old chain & ball". But it's usually men who have allowed their situation to continue, rather than cause a ripple with the chain & ball. You must feel the emotional weight and confinement. I do feel that she needs therapy, b/c there is something that's just not healthy with her in this relationship and perhaps all her relationships. I know you can't force her to seek help, I'm just expressing what I see when reading your threads.

[44tries2]

I am really glad to hear that, 44, b/c I wasn't sure if you'd want to see anymore posts from me.

I hope I did not somehow give you this impression! You are one of the biggest reasons my MR is still out of the grave at all.

Do you feel that it is the actual bomb drop that you fear the most? It's as if she gives you a BD reboot ever so often. Abusers play on the fear of their victim. I remember you once told (when you were living in that foreign country) that if you had to physically separate from her that you would be fine......as for as being a military spouse, plus having a source of personal finances, should you find yourself without a home, etc.

So, do you think that it is more of a psychological issue regarding the bomb drops? I can't remember if you ever said you suffered with abandonment issues due to something in your childhood. I really wish you had an IC to help you deal with your fear. What about your Pastor? Have you relocated to a church, since the move back to the states? You might receive spiritual encouragement, at the least. ((hugs))

It is definitely the bomb drop that I fear most, I think. And you are correct, it is not related to fear of not being okay without her. I am very fortunate I have a lot of resources and people who love me outside of my MR and I do not lack general self confidence. I stated in one of my earlier posts that sometimes thinking about what my life would look like if we divorced actually excites me. You mention feeling confinement later on, but that is applicable here. I am happy to "settle down" with W and those were always my intentions. But putting up with all of this definitely takes away from it and I would be lying if I said I never looked out the window and wondered what if. My fear is not for the what if. Sometimes people ask if I fear change. I would say yes, but it is all about losing the past. I do not fear the new part of the change, I fear losing what I had. I am extremely sentimental and often miss things before they are even gone. This is a good thing in that it makes me very appreciative of life and I love every minute of it. But you can see the susceptibility to over-valuing things and having a hard time letting go.

I don't know if you have heard of the "anxious-avoidant" relationship dynamic, but my MR is the stereotype. I am the anxious one, obviously. I suppose this is the psychological issue you are speculating on. I did not have a traumatic childhood or suffer any real abandonment, but I grew up with parents that were in an absolutely loveless MR. (I guess I should say it was one sided love, as you would expect). So I'm not sure what effect this has. Anyway, I do have an IC now! Well, hopefully. I just found one last week and scheduled to begin. I chose very carefully and after the initial phone conversation, I am extremely optimistic and can't wait to start.

I think I can see how that could easily happen. You want to save the M, so you naturally welcome any sense of "normality", and probably relax or let down your guard. Who wouldn't? You are exhausted from the stress. Add that with you hope that she is conducting herself better for the purpose of improving the MR.........yeah, you get a bit comfortable, and then WHOP.....another bomb drop. She knows exactly how to manipulate your feelings, your actions, your every move. IDK if she has always been this way, or if it came after enlisting in the military, but she certainly appears to enjoy having someone under her command. And, as I stated in my previous post, I could see how she tried to isolate you and keep you from expanding activities that might actually be with someone other than her. IMHO, that's a red flag that signifies a mentally unhealthy person. It matters not the gender, it's still mental abuse.

This is true. I do not know where her need to control stems from, I did not know her before the military but I suspect it is more about why she joined rather than the other way around. But certainly now she shows red flags in the mental health department. She does try to isolate me and keep everything under thumb. She gets jealous, interrogates, the whole deal. I think at first this is partly why our relationship worked, because I was waiving the white flag from day 1. I do not fight for control in relationships. I am a natural follower and totally okay with it. I'm happy to concede things that matter little to me and pick my battles for the things that matter. Of course one day I realized I somehow conceded everything. Like you said happy wife, happy life. But once our relationship left the honeymoon stage, it almost feels like W is sad I don't want to play her game. That's why I am no fun. This is the red flag.

I did see you wearing down, especially when your posting started shutting down. I'm glad to see you posting on other member's threads. It benefits you and them, plus you don't have to constantly talk about your own sitch, if you aren't in the mood. Anyway, I want to encourage you to stick with us, and if you get too tired to talk about it, take a couple of days off. Just please don't get completely away until things are much, much better in your life.

I will.

Referring back to your quote above, I think a lot of husbands just try to keep their heads down and go with the flow, rather than cause a ripple with the W. They bought into the mentality of "happy wife = happy life". This philosophy, if you could call it that, might be true as long as it doesn't cost the man his b@lls. Once his b@lls are sacrificed in the name of making the W happy..........any chance of attraction is automatically flushed down the toilet. He has become a eunuch! For the record, I'm not saying you have lost your male parts, b/c I saw you when you stood toe to toe with her and she backed down..........(she didn't back down enough), but I know you have what it takes for a woman to be attracted to you. I think your W challenges your male confidence b/c she gets some type of satisfaction in keeping you under her thumb.

Yes. Why she is always challenging me is a mystery. I wish she would see my confidence as attractive. Instead, she almost seems threatened. There is a line in the boundary thread about toxic relationships, that says something like 'you and your partner battle for control in the R'. She is constantly waging this war and it makes little sense to me since I am not fighting back. She does not want to give it to me, for lack of better words. For example, I would fall out of my chair if she ever came to me and said something like I was the smartest person she knows and she loves that about me (the specific compliment does not matter). She would just never admit that...to ME. But first thing that happens when I meet a group of her friends or coworkers, they say something like oo W has said SO much about you and how you are the smartest person ever blah blah, whatever it is. As soon as I'm not there, she gushes about me. But never to my face...because of this toxic power struggle I never wanted to have in the first place!

The man has something that attracts his counterpart........simply b/c God designed him that way. Same is true about the woman. Yes, when the traditional roles are reversed (as far as who is employed and who works at home) it can be quite challenging. Especially, in this day & time when so many women have very high stress careers, and/or who are in positions over others, especially over men. For women, as well as men, I think it's often a matter of changing hats when they go home to their spouse. However, I think it is harder for women, b/c they attach their feelings to every involvement in their lives. Whereas men can categorically separate their emotions/feelings from all the other areas that require their attention, time, hard work, etc., women are tied to these thing through their emotions.

As much pressure as women are to "have it all", (the lie from hell), there is no wonder that she is stressed to the gills by the time she comes in from work every evening. That's why many women need to vent when they get home from an exhausting day at work, b/c it's draining and frustrating to have feelings attached to most everything. If she can't or doesn't have sufficient time to shift gears or change hats, she'll likely go in bossing her H around like he is her employee, or she'll act like a b'tch on steroids, simply b/c she's spread too thin. The more stress & grind on her (be it her job; emotional issues from a family/friend relationship; finances; raising kids, having too many fires going at the same time; etc.), the thinner she is spread emotionally & it takes a toll on her physically.......... and something is likely going to breakdown. It's a matter of her having too much on her plate at once for an extended amount of time. Women are very strong creatures in their own way, so don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say. Woman is an emotional being, and it's not easy (maybe not possible) for her to categorically separate all the demands from her without her feelings being attached. Oh, she may appear to be on top of everything, and very good at what she does, but I'm talking about her inner makeup as a female. I make get flack about this, but I think it is a distinct difference in men and women. Men don't attach their emotions to everything, like women do, and let me tell ya, it can be exhausting. I think we would have less problems in intimate relationships, if women would stop expecting men to act & feel like women. Let men act like men!

I can empathize about the roles being reversed, b/c there were times I experienced it in my own M. I think the man can help with chores, cook, the whole shebang as good as a woman (unless it's the laundry..... ) What I think is key here........is that it does not take away from his masculinity. Observe a women working in the kitchen, then watch a man. Same job, but I find it somewhat amusing in the differential patterns. In other words, 44, as long as you don't look/act like a woman, I think it's safe to clean the house and cook dinner. As a woman/wife, she has to see your natural masculinity in everything you do. It should be second nature, but I think the roles tend to rob some people of their femininity or masculinity. Like certain careers in law enforcement may cause a woman to come across a bit less feminine, b/c she's got to have that outward toughness as much as the men. So, I think it works both ways, and if the man is a SAHD, he could lose his edge so to speak. Now, stay balance here. I'm not suggesting there are never times you don't show tenderness or whatever you might associate with female attributes. Your masculinity should still shine through, b/c you are a God created male. Just as you are attracted to the feminine side of your W, she is attracted to your masculinity. It seems it would be natural for us, b/c that's the way we were designed, however, as I described above, in our current lifestyle, we may need to take a refresher course.

Everything you say about emotions applies. I am not an emotion based person. She on the other hand...Her family likes to say they are "exposed nerves" that feel everything incredibly deeply. I can confirm. And she does have a very stressful job and one that puts a lot of strain on the MR, and her mental health personally as well. I let her vent everyday (which she does and I'll be honest, sometimes it's a spew every single day and very exhausting but I don't let it show).

In all honesty, I don't think a lack of masculinity is your problem, and I don't know how I got off into talking about all that stuff. I think she is a demanding type of person, punitive, controlling, manipulative, jealous, selfish, etc., and that's why some men refer to their W as the "old chain & ball". But it's usually men who have allowed their situation to continue, rather than cause a ripple with the chain & ball. You must feel the emotional weight and confinement. I do feel that she needs therapy, b/c there is something that's just not healthy with her in this relationship and perhaps all her relationships. I know you can't force her to seek help, I'm just expressing what I see when reading your threads.

I am glad you don't this masculinity is my problem. I don't really think so either. I think I need to stand up for myself better and cut out the NGS stuff, but that is what I have worked on most and I think it is a work in progress but it IS progressing. I think you nailed it with your description. I think she is that person when she is not healthy, anyway, which is now. Those are her worse tendencies that come out when she is neglecting her mental health, which is her MO. I wholeheartedly agree she needs therapy and that I cannot force it. I figure the best thing I can do is lead by example and go myself, which as I said is already in the works. I really appreciate all of your input; thank you Sandi.
P.S. I am a laundry WIZARD.


I don't really have much of an update, TBH. She has not moved into the guest bedroom, she brought her suitcase into the MBR when she unpacked today. But she is still sleeping on the couch in the basement. She is not hostile, but her friendliness is very clearly limited and she is sending the message that she is still firmly in the BD camp. I need to work on my detachment and GAL. I am in the middle of midterms and on top of all this and my grandfather's death, I am just barely treading water. I actually woke up very physically ill today and I do not know if it was an actual bug or just my body breaking under all the weight. I am sure it did wonders for my case to have W wake up and find me writhing on the bathroom floor vomiting but not much I can do other than ask for privacy.

The biggest obstacle to my DB right now is caring if there is an A. I keep wondering, wondering if she is in the other room texting, wondering what she is doing on her computer, etc. It is very hard to keep proper distance without undermining myself by looking for intel. As others have said, time WILL tell and I need to be patient and forget about it because it does not matter, at least right now. I think it might benefit me just to convince myself there IS an A and make everything easier.

[44tries2]

Well, that escalated quickly. W came into the MBR and asked what my plan is. When I will be moving out. I told her if she thinks I am going to scurry away like a sad little mouse she is in for a surprise. I told her we could discuss a plan, but I will not accept her suddenly saying it is her house, her mortgage, and I just have to leave. Well...war was waged. She went stone cold. She told me our relationship means nothing to her. She even said she hated me "a little bit". She said she cannot stay under the same roof as me any longer. If I won't leave, she will. She said she is staying somewhere else tonight.

I told her she has treated me and our MR like dirt. She has lied, she has cheated, she has walked out and quit. I told her I am getting this #$%* out of my life. I told her I can't believe she has done this to me again. I asked her when the A started this time. Before or after I came to visit. She said she wasn't going to say anything. She stared blankly to whatever I said. I broke a lot of rules, only choked up a few times. Mostly I was just furious. But this was a BLOW UP. I am stunned. An A is confirmed in my mind. I don't have a choice now. She thinks we can just go to the courthouse and have an amicable divorce. I told her I can't trust anything she says, I do not know how this will go.

I don't know what to do. I am in shock. She has gone full on WW monster. I feel like my life has been ruined forever.