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Grace, I'm not sure he is tugging at your heartstrings, I think he is doing exactly what DB predicts he will. He feels that he is losing you. He feels that you are moving on from him. Therefore, he is trying to engage you in the toxic pursuer-distancer dance. Regardless of whether you harbor any desire to reconcile, I think that he feels you going. Let him keep feeling it (it really is the recipe either way). While he is still ok with you dating, or thinks he is, he is nowhere near the end of his crisis. Having experienced this kind of thing for many years (let's get this done now, then the second I indicate a willingness to do so, runaway again), I would caution against spending a lot on lawyer fees negotiating with him. Either let him control the pace (if it suits you, and without spending money on it), or you take control and drive it to conclusion (if that is what you want). But trying to reason with someone in a crisis doesn't work. They don't know what they want, they hate making decisions, and they hate permanence.

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OwnIt.

After considering the exchanges with H today, and your comments, I see how you are right on. He really doesn't know what he wants. He's desperately trying to keep some of the old life afloat, albeit just barely, while not willing to fully move forward. It was so evident in the exchanges today. I've dreamed about you, care about you the kids and even th cat, what's the rush, then play hardball on the negotiations. So back and forth, all within a few hours. I am really curious about what his purpose is to contact these friends after so long. Part of that grasping for the old life, maybe. Maybe trying to get sympathy.

Anyway, I appreciate the fresh perspective.


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I wouldn't read into the friends thing. My H, who I call OD, hated his family. Never had anything to do with them. From the second he left here, it is all about that family for him. They need someone. They know they are a mess. They are afraid to be alone because that is when the demons come. They need someone to tell them they did the right thing and their feelings are justified. Even those friends figure out in time they are FOS.

My advice--in every moment, do what feels the right thing for you and your kids. Try to let go of what he wants, or the whys (but I admit it is fun to borrow Andrew's turban and mind-read--I do it all the time). Don't start thinking that the friend thing is a reconnection thing or this attention means he's coming back soon. He isn't. If he ever does, it is years away. Live your best life between now and then. You may find something better yourself in the meantime, and even if you don't you'll be more attractive him when he gets his you-know-what together. Assume everything is just a touch-and-go and about their fears until you wake up one day with definitive proof to the contrary.

If I'm not mistaken, yours is the one who moved out temporarily for only a month or three or whatever, and has now bought a house with a mistress you didn't know about. Sounds a lot like my H. Terrified to let go, complete coward. Hoping all the time someone else will do the dirty work. What he wants is going to change a million times between now and the end, so be guided by what you want.

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Good Morning Grace

OwnIt is spot on with her sage advice and experienced perspective.

MLCers and friends is a funny business. In as much as their affair is built upon sand, their new friendships are even more unstable. It’s a using each other arrangement. MLCers are emotional broken, and are attracted to, and attract, similar people. They aren’t friends, not in the way we consider friends. MLCer are incapable of deep meaningful relationship. Kind of like kids and friendships, fun times and not very deep.

My XW turned her back on everyone and found a whole batch of new “friends”; imports from OM’s life. She vehemently told me that these were her true friends! She threw away friendships and family of over 30 years. It does make sense. She was dead to her life, and in the new she felt something. Problem is, MLCers are building upon shaky and unstable ground.

I would like to alter one thing of Own’s post - “do what feels the right thing for you and your kids.”

Believe not feel.

Ensure your beliefs, and follow your beliefs, even when they feel wrong, counterintuitive and all that. I am sure that is the spirit and intent.

Originally Posted by Grace21
I don't like that I am obviously still attached, although it's now with a string and not a rope, and I feel deep down he will someday be redeemed and healed.

But, I'm not the one to do it.

I need a few 2x4s to stay the course!

Do you believe deep down that he will someday be redeemed and healed?

Does that matter to your path?

Yes your feelings were stir up by H and his recent tug upon your heartstrings. He doesn’t stir your beliefs, look to them.

Do you believe in your course?

I believe I know you well enough to predict that answer.

Stay the course.

DnJ


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H is on my mind a lot these days. Probably because of the recent e-mail exchanges. Or, maybe it’s just part of the ebb and flow of letting go. Or maybe because I’ve been home along a lot because I’ve been sick all week. Lots of time for thinking. I guess the reason probably doesn’t really matter.

I’m feeling a little sorry for myself and I don’t know why I would have these feelings. I have several good friends, more than a few that I would call close. I have a full, active life. I don’t have to worry about money, or feeding myself or my kids. D20 is doing better. I have a lot to be thankful for, and I AM thankful for it. Maybe I’m just in the final stages of mourning a marriage I wish I had, with someone committed to me, who appreciates my qualities and wants to make me happy rather than always taking and blaming. Mourning the person I wish H was.

I realize I still don’t want to be divorced. But it doesn’t change my course. That is exactly what I believe has to happen now. For me, for my kids, maybe even for H. It will allow me to continue to fine tune who I really am without all the focus on trying to fix someone (H), and something (my M). I just need to guard against trying to find someone else to fix (except my patients, of course).

Originally Posted by DnJ

Do you believe deep down that he will someday be redeemed and healed?

Does that matter to your path?


Good question. I think it’s possible if I saw a glimpse of the pursuit of healing and redemption, it might have an impact on my path. I realize it is because it speaks to my calling to help people. If only he would show he is willing to change, I want to be there to help him do it! Of course that doesn’t work. So, in reality it should not matter at all to my path. In fact it would only put up a blockade.

Originally Posted by DnJ


Yes your feelings were stir up by H and his recent tug upon your heartstrings. He doesn’t stir your beliefs, look to them.

Do you believe in your course?

I believe I know you well enough to predict that answer.

Stay the course.

Dn



I’ve seen too much growth and change NOT to believe in my course. I think the real problem is I still in some small way want H to come along for the ride. And the question is why? After all he’s done.

So, no. My course won’t change. I believe in my course, my future, and all the good and joy it promises. I just have to find a way to let go of the string that keeps trying to drag H along.

It’s just going to hold me back.

Grace


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Grace, I could have word-for-word written what you did just now. It is EXACTLY where I'm at as well. I hear you, and fully understand your emotions. Not wanting a divorce that you are completely onboard with is a strange thing to explain.

In part I wonder if it is because we are very roughly about 1 year since the physical separation part of this process. The time period when we started to gain space with ourselves, and see things objectively. Just a thought.

This past year has brought so many unexpected joys in a path I never saw for myself. I think you have the same. Just imagine - where might we be in another year?

One year ago I never thought I'd be here without W. Not in a million years. So I guess I have to fully expect that one year from now will be something else I could never have foreseen.

I too have W on my mind a lot these days. I'm trying to accept that and let her image take up some room in my mind, because I think it must be part of my healing/letting go process. No more pushing it out and pretending it doesn't exist. What do you do? I know you still have contact sometimes, so I'm curious how you approach it when H creeps into your mind.

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Originally Posted by Grace21

H is on my mind a lot these days. Probably because of the recent e-mail exchanges. Or, maybe it’s just part of the ebb and flow of letting go. Or maybe because I’ve been home along a lot because I’ve been sick all week. Lots of time for thinking. I guess the reason probably doesn’t really matter.

I’m feeling a little sorry for myself and I don’t know why I would have these feelings.


((((Grace))))))

This is kind of what I was alluding to in my last post to you. I have gotten the feeling from your posts of late that you are determined to fix your broken heart your way, by divorcing and having a clean break. I don't think this is possible either from a secular perspective or a faith-based perspective. Divorce may be a necessary evil for you because of financial considerations; I'm in the same boat. But it has nothing to do with your heart or God's plan for marriage. It is not going to fix anything or heal you. Only God and time can do that. The feelings of heartbreak are going to persist. Some people on this board allow healing via secular means; some people lay it at God's feet. I feel like you are straddling both fences, and I do too. But you can't think that just because you are divorcing, you are going to fix anything or keep wondering at the fact that you are not fixed yet! To my mind, you just started your journey!

And if God has a plan to restore your marriage, the divorce may be part of that plan, it may be a step on that road.

The trouble is what to do with your heart and your plans in the meantime. It's messy and uncomfortable to not know. Believe me, that is my struggle too, I am sure you have seen that anguish in my posts.

Originally Posted by Grace21
I’ve seen too much growth and change NOT to believe in my course. I think the real problem is I still in some small way want H to come along for the ride. And the question is why? After all he’s done.


It is not a problem. And the answer is because you never chose to give up your role as your wife and your heart can remember the one flesh and feel it ripping.

Originally Posted by Grace21
So, no. My course won’t change. I believe in my course, my future, and all the good and joy it promises. I just have to find a way to let go of the string that keeps trying to drag H along.

It’s just going to hold me back.


Maybe the way forward is to move forward into joy even with part of you wanting H to come back and believing in the impossible, post-divorce. Maybe it's with H and maybe not, or maybe it's without H for years and then with him later. It might be messier than you want, keeping your heart as a fleshy heart. It might mean sitting with the complexity in a way that is more painful than a clean break. It's a radical trusting of God and one that I am obviously not able to do when I post myself, but I work on it in between. I see plenty of posters on here who think they made a clean break but still struggle with the pain. It's just a fact of our lives, I think. We can live with joy and GAL and friends and family but it's okay to have a corner of the heart that will mourn at times. Only the MLCer can pretend otherwise, and look at the fallout of that ability!

I think you do yourself a disservice wondering why you feel conflicted or thinking it's weak to want your H with you for the rest of your life's journey. That's what you signed up for. (And how do you know it's not the promptings of the Holy Spirit?) Just because H tried to sign off on what you both signed up for, that doesn't mean you can just get rid of the feeling. That's what MLC did for him; do you really want that? The pain of letting yourself feel it is the the worst, but that's the cross! Don't try to leave the cross on the side of the road with your determination to divorce! Pick up the pain and pick up the divorce, they ARE the cross!

Last edited by Gerda; 10/13/19 06:07 PM.

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Good Morning Grace

Originally Posted by Grace21
I’m feeling a little sorry for myself and I don’t know why I would have these feelings. I have several good friends, more than a few that I would call close. I have a full, active life. I don’t have to worry about money, or feeding myself or my kids. D20 is doing better. I have a lot to be thankful for, and I AM thankful for it. Maybe I’m just in the final stages of mourning a marriage I wish I had, with someone committed to me, who appreciates my qualities and wants to make me happy rather than always taking and blaming. Mourning the person I wish H was.

I realize I still don’t want to be divorced. But it doesn’t change my course. That is exactly what I believe has to happen now. For me, for my kids, maybe even for H. It will allow me to continue to fine tune who I really am without all the focus on trying to fix someone (H), and something (my M). I just need to guard against trying to find someone else to fix (except my patients, of course).

Yes, please keep fixing your patients. smile That is well within your realm of control and affect.

I love your clarity of feel, thought, and belief. This ^^^ is another great example of it.

I know you don’t want this, and it feels bad and feels good - weird I know. It’s ok.

And like has been said many times, feelings are fleeting, do not make decisions based solely upon them; find and follow slow changing beliefs.

It’s your hard earned beliefs; the values of Grace that you found, strengthened, and lead your life with. Those provide such clarity, and a lighthouse must be clear to be seen. Beliefs are what is vital and so very important to you. The big things in life. The things you cannot and will not live without. And as odd as it is, a marriage isn’t a vital as one first thinks it is.

Marriage could end from a death. Grace would still have to go on. The reason for the ending is not all encompassing and important - what one does after - that is one of the big rocks to place. Once those big rocks, those values, are in place, let the small pebbles of life fill in the voids around them. If one does it the other way around all one has is pebbles and no important stuff - like our MLCer spouses have done to their lives.

From the other side of this divorce business I’ll pass some of my perspective. Divorce is what I just said - business. Treat it like that. Keep feelings out of it. The hard truth of the matter:

The marriage is dead, the spouse wants out, divorce or not makes no difference, proceed if needed, it’s just a business deal.

Regardless of if one is still married or not, if our spouse awakens, a whole new R needs to be created. The following speaks to that.

Originally Posted by Grace21
I’ve seen too much growth and change NOT to believe in my course.

Yes! You have far too much hard earned lessons and wisdom, far too much growth, to change your path. Your H, anyone’s spouse if they were to awaken, needs to catch up to you. Nothing short of that will do! You most certainly do not want to throw away everything or anything of what you have gained, for him or anyone. You are still the most important person in all this, never sell yourself short.

Originally Posted by Grace21
I think the real problem is I still in some small way want H to come along for the ride. And the question is why? After all he’s done.

Of course you want him to come along for the ride, even after all he has done.

Why?

Because you love him. Maybe even unconditionally.

Embrace that - it’s ok.

At first we cannot do that. Seriously - can’t. One needs to find detachment, and indifference. One needs too, to survive.

Then move forward, letting go, maybe a divorce, maybe not, whatever. Then continuing with empathy, compassion, kindness, and understanding, one finds forgiveness and realizes that they can and do love their wayward spouse and that feeling, that thought, that belief, that choice - no longer hurts!

Why?

Because you chose to love him. And it is becoming unconditional.

This is just as counterintuitive as other new, and at first, strange feelings and thought along this path. Embrace this. Explore this.

Forgiveness is not condone. Forgiveness is love. Forgiveness is a belief. Forgiveness is a choice. It is for you.

Originally Posted by Grace21
My course won’t change. I believe in my course, my future, and all the good and joy it promises. I just have to find a way to let go of the string that keeps trying to drag H along.

It’s just going to hold me back.

Follow your beliefs. Look towards and find find all the joys, sorrows, and happiness your unknown future holds.

A final point of view (for now smile ).

Quit trying to let go that one or few strings still attached to H. I believe we are meant to have a couple remain tied to our spouse. Unconditional love and forgiveness needs something to grow upon.

Change how you see this string. Make a choice. Change your paradigm.

Stop trying to cut the string. It is actually an unbreakable one.

The string is completely stretchable and transcends space and time.Therefore it cannot hold you back.

This forgiveness, this unconditional love, this string, is so very sweet and free of pain.

The string cannot drag H along. However, it could be a guide for H if he ever chooses to follow it.

Be the lighthouse.

DnJ


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Grace, it is still early days. I think only time and distance can bring healing. Its natural to mourn the loss of something/someone that mattered to you.

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Stopping by real quick to say thanks to Yail, Gerda, DnJ and OwnIt for your insight and support. I will reply in more detail, but I have a lot on my plate right now. I'm finally getting better from a nasty cold that kept me out of the gym for over a week, off work for 2 days, and generally feeling crummy for too many days.

At the same time, my cat got very sick, no eating, lethargy, fever. They had to put a nose tube in for feeding. They don't know what happened. But, I asked them to give pain meds, and now he feels much better. They are thinking pancreatitis. He's home now, and eating, so that's something. I won't even tell you what the vet bill was. Yikes!

I'm also getting ready for an appraisal (H wanted it, but of course I have to organize it), responding to stupid e-mails from H (the jabs continue but do not hurt), and D20 is again a complete mess. I think she is very depressed on top of everything else. I don't know if she is in the right major at college, and I am exploring that as well as her taking off a semester. I will travel after work 2 hours on Wed just to have dinner and hug on her. She needs me.

God made me a strong person for moments like these. He is watching over me, and guiding me. I'm glad.

More later.

Grace


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