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Barb, to me you sound as unready as H to have him come back. I agree with Job; he may or may not be ready to do the work. To me it would be shocking if he was already ready, it has been a very short time since BD.

But I don't think that he will get ready under the conditions you are setting for his return.

You have so many conditions and you sound like you have not forgiven him at all. I am not passing judgement at all. I know we all post here to get a birds-eye view from other posters. Mine for you is that you have not forgiven him at all, you are reminding him of his mistake all the time in your words and you actions, and you are giving him a list of things he has to do to come back. If he is a broken man, as all MLCers are, this will make it impossible for him to return. He'll return, maybe, but the pressure will drive him back into the tunnel.

I am not saying you shouldn't have these conditions. That is your choice for your life. I am only saying that from the outside, based on your anger and your conditions, you do not seem to want him back.

I think that for your own self, for your own healing, you would need to forgive him. Maybe you can't right now. But that means not reminding him of his sin/mistake at all, except when you are both in a relationship of deep trust and he wants to talk about it. Forgiveness is a daily operation. You might have to work on it all the time in yourself, as the hurt and anger come in waves. Maybe you aren't there. I found it very hard and could only do it with constant prayer.

If I were in your shoes, and my H were saying those things to me and to other people, I would not necessarily think this was it, and all will now be well. But I would say it was a blessing that the words at least are out there. I would zip my lips, know in myself not to have any expectations, and be as open and kind as possible. I would continue not to initiate contact but I would respond openly to his. If I didn't want him home yet, I would say that I really looked forward to the day he would come home and I would like to date for a while and just enjoy each other's company without the pressure of a return home.

I can't think of any man that would respond well to the pressure you are applying -- and again, those may be your conditions, and that is fine. But certainly an MLCer, who is a broken, raw mess before, during and after the time away, will probably not respond well to that. If the affair stuff is your boundary, so be it, but you can have that boundary without constantly telling him about it. You can say, "Out of respect to our marriage, as much as I enjoy spending time with you, I can't do it when I know you are with other people. Take the time you need, but that's my limit." You can set your own time limit, he doesn't have to know it and feel the pressure of it. Let's say it's a month, if after a month you are done, you can tell him then that you can't talk to him because you know he has not been able to choose. But telling him he has a month, for example, and constantly reminding him of it seems to me like the most sure way to ensure he will not heal or come back.

Last edited by Gerda; 09/21/19 08:03 PM.

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Thank you Gerda,

I appreciate your point of view. The fact is he is at home, and when he asked how he could come home, my only condition was that he seeks IC, and during that IC discuss how he could help me regain trust in him. Yes, I do appreciate the words are out there. I do want him back, but not the old him, so it's his decision to make. Yes, I am angry, and I am trying to control it until it can be dealt with in a more positive manner. I have set the time limit in my mind-it was a month. He's been home for a month, and no counselling booked. Actually next week will be a month.
So, we will be talking at the end of the week. Depending on how that goes, he's in or he's out. It is that time. He's had 15 years to man up and deal. It's time.

I have forgiven the affair, but as I have said,I cannot yet forgive the 15 years of corrosion to our marriage brought on because he wouldn't deal with it-even given multiple opportunities. I don't even think any more that this is MLC-I think it's more WAS-triggered primarily by his guilt, and honestly, cowardice regarding dealing with the original PA. I've told him I don't want our old marriage back-in retrospect it was utter garbage. I'm in counselling, I'm working on my issues, but in this case, if he really wants to move forward, he has to make a move-counselling. Yes I'm stuck on that, because seriously, if this even is MLC, it probably started 15 years ago. Enough is enough.

My only condition for return is that he goes to individual counselling. So even though he's home, he's still one foot in and one foot out, and frankly after the levels of disrespect (refusing counselling for 15 years, texting EA/friends at work very cruelly while ignoring me while my mother was dying, bomb dropping while my mother was dying, and then blaming me for the marriage failing, blaming me for working overtime to pay bills after a year off work with cancer) I don't think IC is too much to ask. I have told him I appreciate him doing the things he's doing around the house, I appreciate that he has the tracker on and tells me where he's going, but if he wants to demonstrate he is truly wanting to reconcile, he needs to do the work.

If he's working towards that with a counsellor, I will be patient. Right now though, I feel that there's a certain component of cake-eating, plus the fact that I know him so well-when he thinks I'm angry, he always refuses to deal with the main issue, and instead tries to get back in my good graces by a sideways approach. He always thinks he can slither back in with a "nice guy" approach. I look upon what he's doing now as a sideways approach, but really, he needs to deal with his issues stemming back to 15 years ago.

Even the fact he and his old EA are following each other on instagram could be an oversight-he only deleted her from facebook a couple of weeks ago, and doesn't use instagram much.

That's it. It's one condition-seek help. For my own self respect, I simply can't roll over on this, I've rolled over on so much for so long. And yes, I think there does come a time when you have to protect your self respect. Deception is a deal breaker for me.


Me: 57 H:60
Married: 25 yrs
DB #1 June 4/19
"I love you forever" June 14/19
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choices and consquences:

1. Do the counselling and stay home-work on the situation.

2. Don't do the counselling, move out ( and I will go dark-but he won't know this). Should he start counselling, I will reconsider.


Me: 57 H:60
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Barb,

You may need to explain to him what the "work is". Some of them think that if they do all of the husbandly things around the home, that is the "work". They do like to sweep things under the carpet. I would sit him down over a cup of coffee and have a conversation w/him to see what he thinks "the work" is. That will be the opener you will need to state what exactly "the work" entails. I would simply state to him that he is more than welcome to stay in the home and work on the marriage, but working on the marriage would include making an appointment and following up w/an IC on a weekly/monthly basis.

See what he has to say about this and if he doesn't think he can do it, he may very well suggest, on his own, moving out.


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Job, sometimes I think you are a mind reader. That's exactly what I plan to do. For now, the "work" I expect is the IC and the transparency plan. I thought I'd been clear on this with him, but I will give it one more go.

I like your opener! I will approach it that way....I'm also planning on saying that I do see and appreciate the work he's been doing around the place-and that he's been keeping me informed of his movements and plans....that actually does help.

He just called after his bike ride and asked if he needed to pick up groceries and if I wanted to go up to the ranch (our other property-RV is up there) tonight. I declined. I have a coffee date in am, and I'm thinking what did he think re sleeping arrangements? We are for sure not sleeping together..

As you say re 'the work" his usual apology mode is to "do the things" so I do think this is what's happening. While I appreciate it, the fact is that "doing the things" isn't what I've asked him to do, or told him I need.

I am ready either way. (Not that it won't hurt).


Me: 57 H:60
Married: 25 yrs
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"I love you forever" June 14/19
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I understand all the emotions you are going through. We know that there is nothing we can do to make them come back, it is their own journey. But I think we can do a lot to drive them further in the tunnel. I think from the POV of a MLCer, you are making it very clear that you do not accept him as he is. I would suggest reading Gordie's threads; he is a real model of how to have boundaries and zip the lips but still be open and not scare them away.


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Hi Gerda, yes you're right I don't accept him as he is. I am hopeful that As he is isn't the finished product. As he is, there is the glimmer that I want him. I don't want the man who lied to me for 15 years and yet still manages to blame me for the failures. Particularly in the past 5 years i have literally done 90% of the heavy lifting and even that wasn't good enough. So no, I do not accept the petulant spoiled man child. I am hopeful that the responsible loving man i married is still there- I see more and more glimpses of him.

So he tells me he wants to reconcile. Well my questions now are how? We have so many issues to address that we can't do it on our own. My personal boundary is that I can't live with dishonesty. It's a deal breaker. Now that I know for how long and how dishonest he was, he needs to address it. I can't reconcile without honesty. He doesn't get a pass. He's had 15 years in which Hhes managed to bring us to this place. Yes I have my issues and responsibilities but I'm not the cheater/liar.

I may push him.back into the tunnel. He may step up and respond. He has a choice to make, and it's time to make one. Saying "I want to reconcile" doesn't magically make it happen.

I'm my mind, what's the worst that can happen? He leaves and we are truly done? We've been there already. I don't need him, I am fine. ( sad but fine), but even though I don't need him I want him and a good marriage back. We are already there-he says we were done 15 years ago, and he emotionally left fully 2 years ago, and is now weighing his options. I've had enough. We move forward together or i move forward alone. My dignity and self respect is not tied to him. I get to direct my life and if I decide not accept certain behaviours, well that's my choice to make with full awareness of what the consequences may be.

He needs to be aware of where I am in this, his choices are his to make, and he needs to be aware of the consequences.

I'm actually holding off on the counselling but after a month back together....the transparency talk is crucial. I would have liked to do it with a third party but that may not happen.

Job is right he did come back to soon and now I have to deal with that too. He thinks my kindness and forgiveness is endless and it's not. And yes I'm angry., I am trying to deal with that while we hopefully reconnect. But as I've said, I've done the vast majority of emotional work in our marriage and it's time for him to either step up or not. Grow up and become a man i can respect or not. I don't think establishing my boundary is unreasonable. It's mine to establish. his response is for him to decide.

If he can be transparent, and we can do counselling, I can wait. If he can't He can leave until either he can or we are done. He can say he wants to reconci!e all he wants. Prove it.


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Update/journalling.

He came home with firewood from the ranch (he was there overnight with family). Fixed the plugged sink, unloaded the firewood, started the fire for me, visited and chatted, had some dinner, it was very pleasant and comfortable all afternoon. He has just left for town-staying with his sister tonight as he's driving BIL to hospital for surgery in am. Kissed me goodbye, promises to text tonight.

So, I broached the subject of communication. I said "if we're trying to reconcile, we have things to talk about. I'm tired of just "ambushing" you when thoughts cross my mind, and I'm sure you have things to discuss with me". So-we've agreed on an hour a week "circle of trust" talk. Each of us gets 1/2 hr to bring up and discuss anything on our minds and lead the discussion. This is going to be difficult but I think if we talk first about establishing how we are going to do this (respectfully, honestly) and maybe have some kind of signal if it's just a little too much. First step to communication.

I will, over the course of a few weeks, bring up the cell phone/transparency issue. It's one of many. And you know, after all we've gone through, I'm okay with this taking time. When my mind starts bringing up issues, I can simply write it down and wait. And then prioritize which ones I actually really want to talk about, and hopefully get some answers. I need to know about the affair. I need to discuss the craziness of the facebook and text messages this summer. I'm even okay with asking him a question and letting him wait to answer it next time around. I also need to know what his issues have been with me, rather than just trying to guess. I do think he's motivated to do this, and if he's not, the truth will out soon enough. Again, I am ready to be on my own should it come to that.

Wish us luck.


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Hello Barb

Your communication idea, the circle of trust, is interesting. I like your awareness of writing things down and prioritizing which to start with.

I totally understand your list you have so far, the things you need to know. I would like to extend to you a different view. In time those things that you need to know right now, become a lot less important. You really do not need to know those answers. Honest.

I see a lot of expectations of how you think this should go and should have to go. Expectations are a dangerous mix this early into this situation. You may well expect an answer, but H many not even know, at the moment, why he did what he did. Emotions are irrational, and it takes time to uncover the reasons/events that underpin them.

For what it’s worth, your first priorities should be to let him talk. Let him discuss him. This whole situation is basically about him, not you. All his behaviours are due to whatever is going on within him. So, let him talk. Follow whatever lead he is willing to do. You need not forgo your questions; be patient they will keep. And you might just find they are not nearly as important as you feel they are.

You have a rare opportunity, a spouse who wishes to talk. Take it slow. H is like a timid squirrel, and will run if bombarded with too much. Don’t worry the truth will come out - in time.

So a question, can you be strong enough and patient enough to allow him to walk his path at his pace? I think you can.

Best wishes.

DnJ


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thanks DNJ, and everyone....I read this last night and had to sleep on it.

I am working on my patience! I am just so frustrated. I've pulled out DR to read again-i think I've been so focused on DB'ing that when he came back-I'm trying to suddenly find a new game plan.

I will be sitting down later today and working through Step 2 of DR....And really, when I look back, 4 months ago we were not talking, and he was out of the house convinced he wanted a separation/divorce. So now, he is back in the house, has said he wants to work on reconciliation, has told family we are working on recon, is telling me everywhere he's going. He has also told me he wants to go slow, and not just jump back in. I need to honour this.

My difficulties, and I need help/suggestions on this!

1. When he said he wanted to come back, I said counselling was "non-negotiable". If I back down on this, then what?

2. I looked at his cell phone, he freaked out that i was invading his privacy, and he's backtracked somewhat-but is still here and hanging in. He swears he's done with EA, but I have a huge issue with trust at this point, as texting/messaging has played a huge role in this situation. I've said I "need him to help me heal" from this and the old PA (old to him, but new to me). When do I broach this again?

3. He's alluded to "my issues" but aside from the housework (a whole different topic!), I don't know what he expects.

"Circle of trust" is an old, old phrase we used to use when asking for the truth. He's agreed to talking without ambush.

So help! Today I plan on step 2-knowing what I want, and setting small goals.

Step 3 is "asking for what I want"....so if we do have a "discussion meeting" which he's said he could do, I think instead of asking about the PA/EA/ etc, I may just ask for those small goals, and leave it. I can put counselling on backburner for now, but not have it go away.

I'm going to need help with this.


Me: 57 H:60
Married: 25 yrs
DB #1 June 4/19
"I love you forever" June 14/19
DB#2: June 19/19 ILYBINILWY
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