Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?)

[curtis7]

i have been gone about a year...
--artista

Artista, welcome back, as a former WW, I would really appreciate your feedback on my sitch. Warning...it’s a long one with one of the worst WW according to some on this board. Thanks in advance.

Hoosjim, sorry to thread hijack.

[sandi2]

Artista! I am so happy to hear from you. You've been missed a lot. Sorry to hear about your loved ones. It's really hard when death hits so close together. (((hugs)))

[hoosjim]

Sandi2, artista... thanks for responding. You two were always stalwarts in sticking by me and supporting me through my darkest periods... even when i wasn't always receptive or otherwise very pleasant to deal with so i appreciate the continued follow up.

artista, so, so sorry to hear about your loss! I know we are all dealing with or have dealt with loss of some type at some point on this site, but you have been hit with so much in a very short period of time! My thoughts and prayers are with you... hang in there!

Sandi:

I call it b.s. I think she was playing with time, hoping that the subject never had to come up. However, when you pulled back and was cool to her for a few days, she ran out of time. Did she have a guilty conscience based on her moral/spiritual values? Was she disappointed in herself (and don't be surprised to hear her use this one), considering she had worked hard the past few months to build trust back into the MR..........and then carelessly through it away?

Sandi, we ended up having a long talk about this Thursday, and have had a couple of smaller talks since. My take, based mostly on what my W has said, but some on my own "read" of her, is that it was something very much like this. She went along with the girls, didn't want to fight the crowd and bff (who has a very strong personality and can be a bit of a bully), thought she could get in touch with me, then got scared to but still wanted to go along with her friends, then after it was past and things were okay with us just figured (hoped?) it would either a) never come up or b) not be an issue with me if it did.

Her story is that she tried to text me but got no response (true, my phone had died by the time they came out of dinner restaurant) and that had she gotten a response she wanted to talk by phone, but she didn't just want to drop a text on me of "I am going to the old bar where I used to hang out with OM"... she wanted to talk by voice. So she went along with bff and other gf who wanted to go Karaoke. She had been drinking less so she was the driver for all three. She searched for karaoke in town (also true-- she offered up her google search history to me and showed me) and they also drove around the old town downtown area past a couple of other pubs to see if they looked active and or had karaoke (also supported by some evidence-- we went back over her location track on her phone and did show them drive past those two other places, slightly out of the way, first). She tried texting me again when they got to the bar before they went in (she did), and then again once in bar from bathroom "because it was loud in bar from the music and if she got through to me she wanted to talk" (though my take is that there was probably an element of not wanting to get jeered by the other girls for calling her husband-- the other two are single/separated). She says they didn't anticipate seeing OM or that crowd since he is now living out of state, had previously had a falling out with owner, and that plan was to not go in or immediately leave if they saw any sign of that crowd in bar (and she shared tidbit with me that bff had also briefly dated someone from that crowd that she did NOT want to see again-- which jives with some of my old intel from two years back that i had not shared with her). They stayed a little over an hour, not many people there, and saw none of the "old crowd" (OM's crowd.) The bar has changed locations, and is more modern and less of a dive... she says it appears to be a different sort of clientelle now.

This story did not, of course, satisfy me or make things "all better"-- simply because the issue was NOT that she had gone there, but that she had done so in secret and that she had either deceived me or knowingly done something that could hurt me and our MR badly... But she granted she should either have told me ahead of time or not gone at all, and she apologized continually and profusely.

She was very contrite, tearful... sorry she had "disappointed me" and "hurt the trust we had rebuilt".She said she understood that it hurt me to have found out the way that i did... that she kept wanting to tell me but never found the right moment with issues with the kids coming up and then we had had a little spat about something else, and then it kept getting farther and farther in the past and she thought it might be better just to let it go. She'd made a "bad decision" and hoped i could forgive her but she knew it might take time. She also never once objected to me "snooping" or "spying", as she had in the bad old days, and we both agreed that keeping our location trackers and phones on was a good idea. We talked about the importance of putting each other and the MR first... in front of all our other relationships. At one point i said "I know bff is your best friend.." and she interrupted me and said, again through tears "No, your'e my best friend... dont you know that by now?" We also talked about the importance of protecting ourselves and the marriage, recommitted to being open about EVERYTHING, even things we thought might anger or hurt the other one, since concealing things of that nature had, in the past, been a big contributor to the downfall of our MR.

I again talked about my concerns about bff and her influence, and W said "I know she's not perfect and she's done a lot of bad things, but she has also had a really hard life (she has-- rape, a second near-rape, molested for years by her stepbrother, both her mothers are trainwrecks as is much of her family), i'm her only real friend, and I can't just abandon her... I don't agree with some of the things she's done, but that doesn't mean i cant be friends with her... but i do know i need to be careful and that i need to put us first always and im not going to make this kind of mistake again. If you want me to not see her i won't see her. (We agreed to talk more about this.)

I found her believable. I can read her pretty well, and while I think there may have been a little more of "I think i can get away with this with my friends" than she let on, I think the situation (MY phone being off as well and me being unreachable after her phone being out of range earlier when I was up and running, her long lost bff being in town and out with girls) contributed to enabling what happened, and that she would have told me had we talked that evening. She did, after all, fess up on her own after i had shut her out for three days and I asked her "Is there any reason you can think of that i should be mad at you?" I absolutely do NOT think she had any sort of liaison with OM or any other man.

We have mostly made up... had a couple of good dates, have been intimate again (she basically raped me last night in the kitchen while i was fixing the dishwasher)... though this obviously has created a new wound (or torn the scar tissue on the old one, which will take time to heal.) We are going to check in with MC when we are down there in a couple of weeks.

I don't understand why she would resent it, unless she felt someone was trying to force her to believe or practice in a way she's doesn't welcome. If that's the case, I would resent it, also. IDK, but based on past discussions with you, your W seems to tie religion to guilt, so she might see you as trying to use faith-based beliefs as a way of controlling.

Some of our awkwardness WRT religion dates back to when the kids were younger (and in the bad old days when we were more at odds than we were "partners") and I started having issues with the RCC and some of its teachings. This translated into me actively resisting some of the teachings wrt our kids and NOT backing up my W on some things... which just became another thing that i "doubted" about her and her values and that i "disagreed with" her on. Of course, now, as i said above, my views on religion and faith and how people come to God/Christ has softened somewhat, and I am much less dogmatic that my own understanding/revelation has to be the model for anyone else. Still, there's some uncertainty there for both of us... it is the one area where i wish more than anything i knew how to strengthen our relationship.

Artista:

i have been in these situations, and sometimes it was me really being deceitful, and sometimes it was me being in a situation that i had not planned, but was not brave enough to tell my husband... and i did behave the same way your wife has... overly affectionate, etc... once when this happened, and my husband was suspicious for maybe a day or two, he finally confronted me, and this pretty much what he said: "artista, you have tell-tale signs when you are hiding something... i gave you a chance to be open and honest with me, but so far you have not taken that opportunity..." i want to say that this happened twice after our reconciliation... the other time, while i was having lunch by myself at a sushi restaurant, he called me and asked me, "is our marriage over?" boom! i said, "no... why???" and he said he knew i was hiding something... and both times i came clean... both times it was silly of me to not be upfront with my husband... i had not done anything wrong, until i kept things to myself... perhaps you can tell her that she has tell-tale signs when she is hiding something...

Artisa, oh my gosh, YES!!! This is exactly the dyamic with me and my W!! She has major tells! She would be a horrible poker player! I told her often even during the depths of her WW period that she was a terrible (i.e. ineffective) liar, and it had been a running joke with us even before that that she was terrible at keeping secrets or hiding things even as simple as surprise parties or gifts. She just is not at all good at deceiving people. Not that she hasn't tried-- obviously the whole affair thing WAS deception, but she's just... bad at it. She'd do things like leave birthday cards to OM (and clearly for him) lying in plain sight on front seat of her car. And obviously her tells, which i levelled with her about this time--- mainly that she becomes EXTRA affectionate and solicitous after she has screwed up or done something wrong.. It's not as obvious now because we are so often affectionate... but you can still tell, plus I just have a very attuned and accurate sixth sense about people... I always have. I even had such about my ex-friend the OM, though i could never quite put my finger on it and my senses had become dulled due to the pit i was in but... i still had little alarm bells (which obviously should have been bigger, lol) Problem is with this (and she noted it) is that now she's "going to worry about being affectionate with me because I'm going to think she's upf to something". I told her it was more than just the being nice/affectionate, that it's the effusiveness/excessiveness of it given the situation and that, in addition to that, I just have a good "feel" for her... At any rate, this must have satisfied her objections given her behavior in the kitchen last night...

Anyway, we seem to be on the right track.

Interesting post script concerning our other issue, which is the female bartender at my (now our) other watering hole. W showed up to meet me there after work on Thursday... this was prior to our climactic thursday night talk on all of this... and we stayed and talked for a while, meeting two other friends plus one of the other regulars there. Our bartender was the attractive young lady-- the phd candidate-- i've previously discussed here. Wife has very fun, talkative. She found out my fellow "regular" was a classmate one year removed of hers at college, and also a basketball player like her... they knew alot of the same people. She kept reaching over and grabbing/groping me while she was talking to him, which is a bit out of character for her (At least in public, lol) and she later told me she was worried i would be hurt/worried about her talking to one of my friends at a bar, since that was how things with OM got started. At any rate, during our in depth talk later, I asked her"so, is there anything else i need to know that i don't know, that might come out later.. anything." She said no... no contact from OM, nothing. Then she asked "What about you". And I said "No, nothing... why?" Her: "Well, I see how bartender looks at you, and how you look at her..." at which point i object "Me look at her?"-- because I really don't "look" at her...or at least if I do it's not consciously, and i DEFINTELY make efforts to look ANYWHERE else when W is there... And W says "No, it's all good, im not worried, but i do see those things." Then she asks me "where did you stay that week and a half you were away last year" (meaning after i walked out)... "I know you were over there at the bar a few nights, and when i asked you last week where you stayed, jokingly, you were kind of evasive." (And i was, but i thought it was in a playful kind of mysterious way, but she apparently took it otherwise.) So I told her "I only stayed at hotels... not with anyone else. I'll be honest, i was so upset and "done" with you at that point that if an opportunity had arisen with someone i might very well have taken it... but it never arose.... and bartender was never at the bar on any of those nights when i was there during that period" [she had been out of country on a medical mission, apparently]...I continued: "IT;s actually one of those things that makes me think God was looking out for us... that and the way we got back together in the following weeks even though i was convinced we were done... until i saw you in town the night we first met to see if there was any hope."

At any rate, W seems comfortable being there and does not seem intimidated at all by this quite beautiful younger woman (with whom she actually shares a whole, whole lot in common). She even said in my ear during thursday happy hour at one point, "If she tries to hug you I'm going to take her down." (We later agreed that that or any other kind of touch with a member of the opposite sex for either of us has to be off limits).

I think we have appropriate limits in place... Like i said i don't go there without her any more, but i am curious from the women here: How good is y'all's "sixth sense" about such things, or does jealousy tend to render it over-active? At this point, despite the veiled overture (which may not even have been one) a few months back, I don't think there's anything there... and remember this is coming from me, a very typical male, who is hard-wired to think that most women do, in fact, "want" him, lol. I just think she's seeing things that arent there... though i did not say that to her... mostly joked and said things like "Well of course she's going to be interested... You've obviously got great taste in men, right?" But I do worry about her self-esteem issues coming back to haunt us... constantly worrying about WON I am going to stray, etc. She hasn't made any comments like she used to in the past, but if she's starting to see things that arent' there, maybe that's a concern.

[sandi2]

Finally! I was on pins & needles waiting to hear something.

I'm relieved to hear the conversation went well and that you feel better about her.

It does seem to match with what Artista was saying about herself.

I think we have appropriate limits in place... Like i said i don't go there without her any more, but i am curious from the women here: How good is y'all's "sixth sense" about such things, or does jealousy tend to render it over-active?

Women can read other women......especially when that other woman is looking a certain way at our man! Oh yes, honey........out sixth sense is very aware of what that hussy is doing.

Some women are jealous if another woman starts doing something we women all recognize in other women, it might make us jealous.........it kind of depends on how secure we feel. I think some jealousy comes into play for the wife in how her H responds to the hussy. I mean, to us it is so obvious when the OW is making eyes at him, even watching him when OW thinks he isn't noticing, flirting, touching his arm, over-laughing at his unfunny jokes, complementing, or whatever. When the H acts as if he is dense and doesn't see what OW is really doing.......and laughs at us if we bring it to his attention.......it makes us angry. If we say something to him about the OW's behavior, and he accuses us of over reacting, feeling jealous or imagining it............then it makes us angry. And, if he just eats up the OW's attention.......and afterwards, talk about how "nice" she is..........it makes us angry. And, don't even think of flirting back with that hussy.

[artista]

good morning, curtis7... i will take a look at your situation...

--artista

[hoosjim]

I'm relieved to hear the conversation went well and that you feel better about her.

It does seem to match with what Artista was saying about herself.

Thanks, Sandi.... Yes, i really do feel that that is it-- she just screwed up, made a bad decision, whatever, and then feared coming forward about it and thought/hoped it would just blow over. She knows, and the episode was probably good, in a way, even though it caused some short-term damage, because it got us talking again about more fundamental aspects of the MR which we hadn't done alot of lately because "things were so good"... but i think it IS good for a married couple to examine hard issues and talk about those sorts of things from time to time, even when things ARE good.

over-laughing at his unfunny jokes,

Hey! My jokes are quite funny, thank you!

I mean, to us it is so obvious when the OW is making eyes at him, even watching him when OW thinks he isn't noticing, flirting, touching his arm, over-laughing at his unfunny jokes, complementing, or whatever. When the H acts as if he is dense and doesn't see what OW is really doing.......and laughs at us if we bring it to his attention.......it makes us angry. If we say something to him about the OW's behavior, and he accuses us of over reacting, feeling jealous or imagining it............then it makes us angry. And, if he just eats up the OW's attention.......and afterwards, talk about how "nice" she is..........it makes us angry.

Yeah... <sigh>... I figured. Unfortunate situation. Now, i have not laughed at my W's take or accused her of overreacting or otherwise denied/refuted/invalidated my W's read on the situation. In fact, if you'll recall, after what i interpreted as the veiled overture from lovely bartender a few months back, I shared it with my W... though i was reluctant to do so... didn't want to be throwing accusations or causing hard feelings where none were warranted. (Though W has been convinced this chick has had her eye on my ever since W first showed up there during the bad old WW days when i was off on my own a bit and W used to drop by that bar from time to time to meet me and commented that this gal was intentionally ignoring me/us when W was around-- and honestly at that point in time i thought it couldn't hurt the dynamic with my W for W to think other women were interested in me). However, there were other possible interpretations to that overture from bartender (though, as I have said, i usually have a pretty good read on people and their intentions and a pretty good track record of knowing what people are after-- and, yes, even WRT potentially interested women and even though i am a man) and I have not seen anything since that time that would qualify as such, though this girl does continue to be friendly, chatty, comps me drinks on a regular basis (though i tip well as a customer and if i had a dollar for every time a female bartender had comped me a drink I'd be a rich man) and, yes, will sometimes touch me on the shoulder when she comes up from time to time-- but nothing i would consider out of line for a bartender with whom I am friendly and a regular customer. She did once, a couple weeks back, recommended another bar to me that i have since found out she herself has gone to (which recommendation i also shared with W and we actually went on Saturday), but there was never any invitation to meet or the like. If she is still making a play for me she is being extremely subtle about it. But, like I said, I have acknowledged in talking with my W that it (bartender interest in me) is possible and that I value her (W's) feelings on the subject, to which W has replied "I like the place, too, and I think we can keep going there." (It is a very unique place around here in terms of food, outdoor ambience, and live music-- an excellent and fun date spot).

For my own part, I have been upfront with W that, when she and i were on the outs, I would "flirt" with this bartender from time to time (but very lightly and playfully, in the way that many men will flirt with female bartenders and not in a "coming-on-to-you" kind of way) and, in fact, that I would often flirt with other women in the same fashion. Not that i was looking for anything per se at that point in time-- i still had hopes to save my marriage-- but engaging in that type of banter was fun, and liberating and, at the time, seemed harmless enough. And I have also told W that, had an opportunity with this bartender or another attractive OW come up during those couple of weeks that I walked out I cannot say for sure that i would not have taken it-- that that's how "done" I was with her and the MR...

But

that no such opportunity arose, despite my being at that bar without my ring on, for several nights. (Bartender was out of the country on a medical mission for her degree those two weeks-- interesting coincidence.) I have told W, and I remain absolutely convinced, that God was watching out for us and for our MR, and wasn't going to let me get into any tempting situations during that delicate period. And I have also been clear with my W that she is who I want and she is who I have chosen (and also make sure to point out to her all of the things I love about her and how we have so much fun together, etc etc.). I always tell her: "You know where my heart is."

And, if he just eats up the OW's attention.......and afterwards, talk about how "nice" she is..........it makes us angry. And, don't even think of flirting back with that hussy.

And I don't do any of that... at least not anymore. But... I do think it's unfortunate, and I do think that that evaluation of this girl may be a bit harsh. If/when she did become interested in me, I was arguably fair game-- not wearing a ring, frequenting this bar on my own, returning friendly attention... and I didn't make any secret of the fact even after my WW showed up once or twice that we were on the rocks. While never discussed it directly with this particular bartender, i didn't make a secret of it. One of the other bartenders (also a girl) once asked me "what's the deal with you two (meaning me and W).. sometimes i think you two are married and sometimes maybe dating and sometimes nothing, and you never say one way or the other", (If you'll recall W and i weren't at all snuggly or intimate or touchy-feely at that point) to which my response at the time was "Well, legally speaking, we're husband and wife... but as a practical matter we're just friends... and everything else between those two right now we're just kind of trying to figure out." So, it's quite possible, even probable, that our lovely "hussy" bartendress thought W and i were basically done at that point and that i was fair game. So, yeah, maybe she's interested, but I sure didn't do anything to dissuade her during the formative period of our acquaintance, and, to be honest, I do like her as a person... she's sunny, friendly, likes helping people... seems like a very nice girl. (Though I am careful to never point this out to my W) And, while I've several times told my W, half-jokingly: "Tall brunette, not my type" (which is generally true-- my W is a petite blonde as have been almost all of my relationships), under other circumstances and given maybe ten years less of age difference she's someone i could see myself being interested in-- as I believe i mentioned above she is, in terms of temperament and personality and background and interests very, very much like my W. And once her bartending days are done... likely within a couple of months.. she will be working in the same field as my W... in fact it is not at all unlikely that she would at some point interview with the clinic at which my W works, which is one of the largest and best known in the area and region, and also not at all unlikely that we will run into her socially or professionally in the future. So... someone we in other circumstances could have had a productive friendship with, even helped along the way with our contacts and connections and experience (which this girl might need-- she's said she feels very lost/directionless in the job/career search area right now-- also frighteningly similar to my W at a similar age)... but obviously not now. And I feel somewhat responsible for that.

Anyway... seems like we have a good handle on things here, now, and i appreciate all y'all's input.. As always, your help and support and insight has been invaluable.

Last note for anyone reading my thread... My own PSA for today: I cannot overstate how important it is to DATE YOUR SPOUSE. Go out! Have Fun! Find new exciting things to do! Be each others' best friend. So many couples these days make heroic efforts to "put the kids first", and so many others get lost in self-entertainment or social media, and still others hyper focus on career. Your MR is the single most important relationship in your life... and DOUBLY so (not LESS so) if you have kids. The best gift you can give your children is a hot marriage... wish my W and i had known this sooner...

[Traveler]

Last note for anyone reading my thread... My own PSA for today: I cannot overstate how important it is to DATE YOUR SPOUSE. Go out! Have Fun! Find new exciting things to do! Be each others' best friend. So many couples these days make heroic efforts to "put the kids first", and so many others get lost in self-entertainment or social media, and still others hyper focus on career. Your MR is the single most important relationship in your life... and DOUBLY so (not LESS so) if you have kids. The best gift you can give your children is a hot marriage... wish my W and i had known this sooner...

Thanks. This is great advice. Need to do more of it. :p

[neffer]

Back to normal then...greatttttt!

[hoosjim]

Here's a question that's preying... somewhat heavily... on my mind today:

Once you are reconciling with your formerly WAS, or even, for that matter, reconciled, do you need to know whether or not your spouse actually had physical relations with someone else while they were in "walk-away" or "wayward" status? Should you want to know? Or Not? If so, should you ask, point blank? Does it matter?

Okay, so that's actually several questions, but same general issue.

In my case, I was inspired to do some self-reflecting over the weekend, partly as the result of a church service i attended recently and partly as the result of finding, while cleaning out the garage, a stack of my old journals from my early DB-ing days when my W was still very wayward, embroiled in what was at least an EA, and things looked very bleak for my MR. For color, my W is currently travelling out of town for a week and a half with her mother to visit her sister and nephew/godson. (They live in Nevada-- not Vegas--and tickets were expensive and we're cost-cutting so i stayed behind). I was intentionally flipping through the "worst" part of the timeline, trying to re-explore my feelings and how i got through that journey (my faith played a huge role, as you know, as did, i am still convinced, divine intervention both of which also interplayed with me finding these boards and DB-ing books) and, unfortunately, it brought back echoes of the old hurt and pain. Also, looking at it in the clear light of day, with a clear mind (BOY was I a mess back then, definitely less clear of mind), alot of what happened seemed clearer and less foggy in the clear light of hindsight. One thing that really stuck out to me is that I never found out definitively one way or the other if she had sexual relations with OM... even though she definitely had motive and opportunity. That particular detail sort of got glossed over and "washed away" in our ultimate reconcilliation and journey into piecing-- She did write me a couple of very long letters basically taking full responsibility, admitting what she had done, etc., and of course we had multiple therapy sessions where we cleared the air and i insisted on full accountability and the answers to several specific questions about her deceptions, which she uniformly and gladly answered... But i never specifically asked that question, nor did i even imply i wanted an answer to it. Maybe i was afraid of the answer, idk. I think i have said previously in my threads that i have some good reasons (that i wont go into here) to believe she did not have actual intercourse with the man, even during the depths of our ordeal. I also believe, though i am not certain and i did not make not of it in my journal, that at some point in early reconcilliation or as our MC was brokering our getting back together "to talk" that I indicated if she had had intercourse with him that she would need to be tested (particularly given this dirtbag's background)... or maybe MC suggested this, idk... but i think it came up and i think she gave some indication it was nothing to worry about, though my recollection also is that she was far from definitive in terms of "we had no sexual relations of any kind". Further, obviously, there are degrees of "sexual relations" (despite what Bill Clinton avers) that would not raise such testing concerns, and which would also not implicate such. She knows i know they "spent a night together in a hotel" which they did-- unplanned, apparently, after some social event involving her and bff and other friends-- and there may or may not have been others in the hotel room ... but i never got any details from her in response to the revelation from me that i knew, and i did not ask her to provide any, i just threw it out there during one of our early reconcilliation- process discussions when she backpedaled at one point on "how serious" the relationship with him was (Me: "Look I know X,Y, and Z, and I know you spent the night with him in a hotel"). Her only response was not details and not a denial that anything happened but rather "I'm not in love with him and i have no feelings for him and I am not seeing him or in contact or even want to be in contact with him..i want to be with you" (or something to that affect.) And, like I said, i never pushed it. I actually don't even know exactly when/where the night together occurred... There were two or three windows where something like that actually could have happened, and i never insisted on that being something she specifically and in detail come clean on. Not sure why. Maybe i figured she'd lose respect for me if she knew i knew she's slept with another man and i still wanted her back. Maybe because I was afraid it would affect how I felt about her to know for sure... and at that point i was once again interested in reconciling and getting a fresh start.

Problem is.... Now it's eating at me. Yeah, i know i know i shouldn't have gone down that rabbit hole... but now i did and I'm there. Brought up familiar feelings of resentment that i hadn't felt in a long time-- When W and i first met and dated, we split for a while (actually she broke up with me-- first time that had ever happened to me and hurt because she was first girl i ever really fell hard for) and she actually kind of threw me over for another guy who she had a couple of non-date "dates" with before we split. A bit more complicated than that-- she had told me she wasn't ready for a serious relationship, was scared at how close we were getting, and insisted (on and off) that we were "just friends" or "just hanging out". Still, at the time, it blindsed and hurt me (she knew how i felt, was forthcoming about some of her feelings but deceptive about seeing this other guy) and i harbored some resentment towards her for a considerable period--- resentment that very, very very nearly resulted in me having an affair while we were engaged (I came to my senses just in time and didn't go through with it.) At any rate, this latest re-visitation to her WW days and this issue raised some similar feelings... maybe not as strong as I am more confident now in our relationship than i think i have ever been, but it still ate at me enough when i was out with friends this weekend that i was getting borderline resentful again, almost to the point of appreciating the attention of other females a bit too much "Did she really sleep around on me? Seriously?" (And, yes, i am careful here and know how to maintain good boundaries but it was troubling to feel those feelings again.)

Thinking i probably eventually just get over this. Prayer, thankfulness, etc. I am strongly considering pitching the journals in a nod to our fresh start. Not even sure how i would ask her about this at this point, and, again, not sure i want to hear the answer... but at the same time some grimly curious part of me does... even as i know it might not be good to hear. And if i did hear, how would i respond? Could i ever get that image/thought out of my head? Would it lead me down a bad path as it nearly did before? But if i don't know, how long is that doubt going to hide in some dark place in my head gnawing at me and waiting for a moment of weakness to jump out and bite.

Anybody else have any experience with or thoughts on this?

Thanks yall...

[SteveLW]

So here is the thing. I will quote a line from Queensryche, "I Don't Believe In Love""

"She said she loved me,
I guess I never knew,
But do we ever,
Ever really know?"

Here is the thing whether she did or didn't with OM. Or some other man at some point when you your marriage was not good. You never ever really know.

I've known spouses that took affairs, or one night encounters, to their graves. Their spouse never knowing or even suspecting.

So you could ask her. She could say no. But would that settle it in your mind? I am guessing not.

Here are some more important questions:

1) Does it matter? I mean, if she were to admit to one night of wild passion with OM, would you take any action?
2) If it does matter, what would that action be? It has been so long that testing really is meaningless (issues would already have arisen). Are you going to leave her over it? (I am guessing not.)
3) Whether it does or doesn't matter, why is it bothering you? Maybe that is something to talk about in IC? There is no harm in going to IC to deal with this. I am of the belief now that dealing with the aftermath of D, nearly Ding, or affairs that we suffer from a form of PTSD. And that occasionally we need to deal with that with a professional.

Our old house is in the process of being sold. As soon as it is I will be scheduling IC with a Christian based therapist for myself.