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Re: Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?) [Re: AnotherStander] #2861227
08/13/19 03:46 PM
08/13/19 03:46 PM
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hoosjim Offline OP
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Jim, did you see my response? I think maybe you missed it after Sandi's. I wouldn't let this fester. It clearly bugs the crap out of you and that is reason enough for you to confront her about it.


Actually, i had missed it, thanks.

I wasn't ready to confront her about this yet. Still might not be. Point I'm at now the more i think about it the madder i get and i need to cool off a bit... I want to be cool and fully in control of my emotions when i do this, and right now there's a good chance i won't be.

The fact she did this shows that either a) I can't trust her because she still has a wayward mindset and/or is just plain willing to lie to me or do things she knows are contrary to the best interests of our MR or b) that she herself doesn't trust the MR or isn't "all-in" on it enough to put it FIRST and come to me to discuss these types of situations (and like I said, at the place we were, had she just told me she was going, Id've simply said "cool... bring me back some wings to warm up tomorrow when i get home."

It could also be evidence that she is/was up to something worse, though i think that is the least likely possibility (though certainly not IM-possible given the dynamic.

This is just really frikking disturbing. That bar is a local bar with a local/regular clientelle. We have run into regulars from that place when we were out (or, rather, SHE has with me and said "Oh, I saw so-and-so from the bar... they're here to support their entrant in the karaoke contest... Come to think of it she talked to that acquaintance while i was at the bathroom and never made a move to go over with me and introduce.) See, the thing is, after I stopped going there, she was there FREQUENTLY with OM and her bff... and it is a small bar with a regular clientelle. They KNEW she was the wife of a former friend of OM's (me), and i was friendly with a few people at that bar as well. I just didn't feel like i wanted to go back ever again knowing that a number of people there knew that D-head OM was stealing my W. For her to go back there, now, without me, just seems really weird. The thought of her hanging out there, SECRETLY, and partying and having a good time just really, really burns me. Can't imagine the low regard she must actually have for our relationship to have done that.

She knows something's up, BTW. Has asked me several times, now "what's the matter", to which I've said "look, I've got some things on my mind and I just need some space right now." She even came BACK from work this morning, claiming she took the wrong car-- one the kids needed-- by mistake, and could I "drive her to work instead of taking the Metro". (she's really sharp this way and would never do that inadvertently, especially for something concerning the kids) Whatever, i was pretty quiet in the car despite numerous "whatcha thinkin' bout"s. She's made several physical advances which i have rebuffed. I keep thinking maybe she'll fess up on her own, which to me would be significant, but don't think it's gonna happen. Starting to calm down a little, so perhaps I'll bring it up tonight. Otherwise It'll probably have to wait until after family vacay this weekend.


______
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires." --Sg. of Sg.--2:7

"So often times it happens, that we live our lives in chains, and we never even know we have the key." -- Eagles III--1:3
Re: Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?) [Re: hoosjim] #2861230
08/13/19 04:05 PM
08/13/19 04:05 PM
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hoosjim Offline OP
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Another, even more simplified take:

She was either a) up to something so bad she doesn't want me to know about it OR b) not up to something, but is so callous she doesn't care about the pain and doubt and relational damage it would inflict on me/us if/when i found out she went there secretly... and i have always found out (she's the world's most inept liar/secret-keeper)

And I just received my third flirty text of the morning. Just unbelievable.


______
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires." --Sg. of Sg.--2:7

"So often times it happens, that we live our lives in chains, and we never even know we have the key." -- Eagles III--1:3
Re: Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?) [Re: hoosjim] #2861296
08/14/19 08:29 AM
08/14/19 08:29 AM
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Sandi, isn't there a real risk here of her "getting a thrill" out of being sneaky and bad with bff again and rekindling the wayward mindset? She has always been a bit of stubborn, rebellious sort to begin with, even as that is at odds with her "good girl" Catholic upbringing. I really feel like she needs a good sharp rap on the knuckles with a ruler or something, here, to remind her...


Okay, let's start with the Bible. smile It tells of Adam's fall in the garden of Eden, and one of the consequences was that Adam's descendants would inherit his same old sin nature. So, when we were physically born, we got a little something from Adam. Salvation is a spiritual birth. It gives eternal life and a new nature. However, salvation didn't do away with the our old sin nature we inherited. Therefore, we struggle with two natures.

I told you quite some time ago that I felt your W's true issue was a spiritual one. If she has been saved, and if she still holds some thread of rebellion in her Catholic "good girl" upbringing, I think she struggles with those two natures. I also think she loves you, and wants to be M to you, but when she gets around those "friends" and that environment, it beacons the bad girl to come out and play.

Every person has an area of strength, and an area of weakness. The smart thing, IMHO, is to recognize your weakness and work to get stronger, which usually start by avoiding the avenues that tempt the weakness. As an observer, this desire to be a "bad girl" sometimes, is her weak area. I think you would agree that her BFF is not a good influence on your W. She encourages her bad side to come out and play. So, as long as she continues to hang around friends that live a wayward type lifestyle, I believe she will be tempted...........b/c she doesn't seem to be strong enough.......or she simply doesn't want to tell them she is not going back to that bar, and she's not going to do whatever it is they do after they start drinking.

A new person on the board could read all your threads, and I think they would see a local place that seem to be a hot bed of temptation. I'm talking about your favorite bar. Now, you have defended it to the sky and back, but the way I see it, neither of you should be going there. As I recall, you stopped posting when the subject turned on you a female bartender that worked in this particular bar. And this was right after reconciling with your W! You thought it was kind of funny and brushed it off, and that's when you stopped posting.

So now, your W is still going to that same bar? Like, she goes there alone? I know you wrote extensively about how that was your favorite hangout, etc., etc. It just seems linked to several things that has happened during the past, and maybe currently.

As a recovering WW, I believe she has to put her big girls panties on and establish very clear boundaries for how she will conduct herself as a lady, a married woman, and a Christian. A recovering WW (who had some type of an A, or engaged in GGW stuff) is like anyone else who deals with a particular addiction. You can't go back into that old environment, engage in those activities. etc. You have to stay away, and work on getting stronger and affair proofing your MR as best that you can. And in her case, I'd start by staying away from those old haunts.......and those old friends who want to pull her back into that situation.


If she sees nothing wrong with what they do on a girl's night out, and has no intentions of finding a better group of ladies for friends, and/or if she doesn't have the strength to tell her current BFF and friends that she isn't going to that particular bar, or go bar hopping all night.........then I think there will always be a degree of risk involved. What's with these gals who want to hang out at bars? Anyway, the combination of the BFF influence and something about that bar plays on the weak area of your W. I can't give all the blame to the BFF. During the time when your W was staying for the wine down after work, she again, seemed to see nothing wrong with it. If it had continued, I think she was on her way of allowing things to really get out of hand. (Of course, this was before you reconciled). So, she has to stop taking part in these types of settings. I think we've talk before about how she sees no red flags or lives by certain boundary lines........and this gets her into trouble. This is a woman with two grown boys, so by now, she should be able to see the need to set boundaries for herself.


If you feel everything has been great, and suddenly the old girl friends shows up and they go to the old hangout........problems arise. To me, it seems clear where the problem lies, and it doesn't have anything to do with you, in her way of thinking. It's as if she just wants these few hours to be free and do whatever she feels like doing. I actually feel she is heavily influenced to go along with the group and don't be a party- pooper. They might even tease her about texting you every few minutes. Maybe they pressured her into turning off her phone.........who knows. It all comes down to her not standing up against it and saying I'm not going to partake in it.

So, let me ask if you and your W have been attending Church regularly? Is she getting good food for her soul? This may sound preachy, but she needs to be around sources of good influence. Make friends with people who don't go to bars to hang out. IMHO, your W needs to stay away from the bar environment. She has no business going there by herself. I think the people she chooses to hang out after work, go spend weekends, and overnight things, have to stop b/c it feeds that weakness and desire to be a bad girl. She (and you) may defend her actions, but she knows it's wrong......and that's why it appeals to her.

It's like the story of feeding the two wolves. The two wolves, being the two natures we have. The one that is fed the most, will become the stronger. The fact that the two of you have had a great honeymoon period is wonderful and your story should be inspiring for others who need some hope. However, the story doesn't end as long you continue living. I don't know what happened that night her phone was off, but she seems as though she feels guilty about something. I don't think you should continue to wait before asking her about it. Your mind will create much worse crimes than probably really happened. I'm not good with words, but Another Stander is excellent in how to address something this sensitive.

I keep repeating myself, but I really do think she needs to make a decision to conduct herself like a married woman, and a Christian lady (if she claims to be Christian) and stop going out and engaging in activities that cause suspicion, and bring up bad memories, etc. The more she continues feeding that wolf, it will get stronger and do damage to the MR.

My suggestion is to call your MC and get her advice, or go ahead and approach your W. I know how you roll things around in your head, and you have been a little cool.......so she knows something is up. Next thing, she will start being cool back to you, and things will start going downhill. So, get the thorn out now! Don't end up sleeping in separate beds again. (((hugs)))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?) [Re: sandi2] #2861990
08/19/19 08:42 PM
08/19/19 08:42 PM
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hoosjim Offline OP
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So. back from vacation. W and i did discuss this issue, though not sure it is completely resolved.

When I went to pick her up from work on thursday, she is sitting on bench outside work, stifling tears. She gets in car and i can see she has been crying. I ask her what's up. She says, through tears "I've been crying on and off all day, trying to figure out for the past three days why you are shutting me out right now, and..." (And i have been, I've been curt, somewhat cold, not as responsive as usual, etc.) So, although i still had not intended on talking about it at that point, I interrupt and ask her "You can't think of any reason why?" Her answer: "Well, all I can think of is that bff and gf and I went to ____________ (OM's old bar where they used to hang out, and where i hung out from time to time with OM before the A started) for just an hour last weekend after dinner, but I didn't think it was a problem, i thought we were past that, and then i was going to tell you and then things with the kids got crazy [they did] and i didnt want to drop that on you in the middle of that..."(etc etc etc.). To which I respond: "I asked you twice what happened to you and where you went and you STILL didn't think to tell me you had gone there?" To which she kind of hems and haws about "didn't think i had asked her where she had gone" (which, after reviewing my texts, is TECHNICALLY true as i had just noted her phone being off and asked "what happened" to her. Whatever. We also discussed her being out with bff as historically being a cover for bad behavior and OM (or at least that bad behavior tended to arise around bff, and i specifically say (without yelling) "I am getting really really ***king tired of the common denominator when all these incidents happen being your bff... really getting tired of her involvement." Also that that scenario is one that is STILL one that raised painful memories for me (she said she didn't know that, thought we were past it) and that "level 2" of that dynamic is when she is out with bff and unreachable... as she was on this occasion and of which she would have been reminded when her phone came back on or came back in signal range (she claims it was on the whole time.) Level 3 (or DEFCON 1) of that dynamic would be the two foregoing factors AND she is secretly at the OM's old hangout/bar. She repeated again that she was going to tell me but just couldn't find the right time, and I asked her how she thought i felt, not knowing she had gone there and, under the circumstances (out with bff, unreachable) discovered ON MY OWN that she had gone there without telling me. She responded, through tears, "very hurt, horrible... I'm sorry.. I didn't think it would be a problem." She kept coming back to "There was nobody there, you know he lives far far away now, and nothing happened there" to which my response was "Your misunderstanding the bigger problem, which is that you should have told me. If you had told me ahead of time I would have said 'great, have fun, bring me back some wings to warm up tomorrow", but by not telling me and going there in secret you really damaged the trust i have for... it's changed the way i feel about you right now." To which her response was "I don't really think you would have been "okay" with it ahead of time".

So here is my problem with all that: either she knew it would be a problem for me ("I knew, no, wait, i FELT you might be troubled by me going there") and went anyway in secret, OR she didn't bother to think about how it might affect me which means she is being pretty carefree/callous about protecting the MR. If she knew it was problem or even might be problem for me she a) shouldn't have gone or at least b) should've talked to me first. Seems like she is trying to have it both ways. She "didn't think it would be a problem" but then "thought about telling me but didn't want to tell me during a bad time with the kids." She was also crafting her words carefully, trying to backtrack from "knowing" I'd have a problem with it to "I didn't KNOW you'd have a problem with it but i had a little bit of a feeling that you might and i should tell you." Basically, she's caught in the lie/deception.

So, IDK. I don't think anything happened other than that she went somewhere she should have told me about first, and that she probably thought "easier to ask forgiveness than ask for permission." Im sure she feels bad about it but not sure if it because she hurt me and the MR or because i pushed her away emotionally for a week and she felt isolated/alone. All that said... I am NOT over it... I brought it up again obliquely over the weekend and she said "I thought we were okay now" and I kind of let it drop... but I am not "okay." We are doing better "intimately", talking and flirting some and going out, and I am trying to re-establish that closeness with touch and holding and the like, but i am not really feeling it yet. We haven't had sex since the night after I returned home the previous week (two nights after she had been out with bff and gf and she was EXTRA affectionate when I got back. Still burns me to think about.

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A new person on the board could read all your threads, and I think they would see a local place that seem to be a hot bed of temptation. I'm talking about your favorite bar. Now, you have defended it to the sky and back, but the way I see it, neither of you should be going there. As I recall, you stopped posting when the subject turned on you a female bartender that worked in this particular bar. And this was right after reconciling with your W! You thought it was kind of funny and brushed it off, and that's when you stopped posting.

So now, your W is still going to that same bar? Like, she goes there alone? I know you wrote extensively about how that was your favorite hangout, etc., etc. It just seems linked to several things that has happened during the past, and maybe currently.


Just to keep the geography straight, and because i know you follow many different people's sitches on here: There are two bars-- 1) OM's bar/hangout, where i used to go from time to time with OM, my former friend until i found out about his A with my W, and where W and bff had numerous meet-ups with OM and his friends during the course of the A, and then 2) "My bar" The patio bar somewhat near to my own neighborhood where I started going as part of my GAL and "get out and meet people" efforts and eventually became a regular there. I am still on good terms with the owner and several members of the staff. W would "drop by" and visit or temp-check me from time to time during the A and before we reconciled, but that was MY hangout, never frequented by OM. Neither me nor my W have been to OM's bar since the A ended and we reconciled, though we had discussed going there together as a "take back", and I have come close to ordering out for wings from there and going to pick them up, and have told W so, though had not yet done so. This was the first time either of us had set foot in the place since the A. MY favorite hangout had been and still to a degree is bar #2 (My Bar) which is the bar where the attractive younger woman tend bar... and Good point about that (though that was not why i stopped posting for a while, that sort of happened on it's own)-- yes, that was and has been a challenge for me. I had continued to go there, sometimes actually with W, sometimes with other friends for happy hour... and found myself getting a little too close to said bartender-- she is very friendly, very pretty, very smart (a doctoral candidate graduating at the end of the summer)--a temptation-- and while she hadn't said or done anything that might have been taken as an overture since that night a few months back, it seemed we were finding out a little too much about each other, which was pointed out by my one evening to W when i mentioned something about her "Oh, _________ was saying she's had some experience with that." Hadn't really resonated with me until then, but i realized that's exactly what happened with my W and OM-- letting someone of the opposite sex get too close. So, now, I don't go there except with W and, preferably, a whole group of friends, ideally other couples.

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During the time when your W was staying for the wine down after work, she again, seemed to see nothing wrong with it. If it had continued, I think she was on her way of allowing things to really get out of hand. (Of course, this was before you reconciled). So, she has to stop taking part in these types of settings. I think we've talk before about how she sees no red flags or lives by certain boundary lines........and this gets her into trouble.


Part of the reason all of this is so disconcerting is that everything HAD been going so well, and she HAD been behaving so responsibly. She herself decided/realized that the after-work wine-downs were not an appropriate/healthy atmosphere for her to be in, so she has stopped going... the doctor plied her with a couple of "gift" bottles of wine from time to time for a few weeks after she stopped, but she just brought them home for us... So he stopped. He is somewhat colder to both of us now and I think it is pretty clear what his intentions were all along. At any rate, W doesn't go nor ask to go to those, and she includes me in all work functions that she does attend. She also had not been pining after bff. As I mentioned, she had had a "Trial visit" about three months ago with one other girl (whom I basically trust) and she showed exemplary behavior-- constantly texting me, letting me know what they were doing and where they were (i double checked all of this last week after the recent incident), didn't get drunk, and came home early and made a date for us even though the other two wanted her to stay. She continues to show me the kind of respect and affection that she almost never did before, and all seemed well. Really a head scratcher why she did this, and i hope it wasn't a "thrill" that she'll want to repeat.

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So, let me ask if you and your W have been attending Church regularly? Is she getting good food for her soul? This may sound preachy, but she needs to be around sources of good influence. Make friends with people who don't go to bars to hang out.


So, this is both a positive and a potential sticking point with us. She is definitely a person of faith, definitely Christian (which is one of the reasons i ended up with her-- my former GF at the time i met W was an avowed atheist, and I have always been a person of faith even though my adherence and practitioning have waxed and waned, I always knew i believed and always had that faith and it was always important to me, so i knew it was not going to work out to a MR for me and my GF, and I heard my W say something not long after we met which made me realize she WAS a Christian, and that was one of the things i found attractive about her)... BUT also definitely Roman Catholic which, at this point, I am not. I joined the RC church (I was raised Presbyterian) primarily for the kids, but I also was somewhat attracted to the tradition and actually to the inflexibility of the doctrine (God's Word doesn't change just because societal mores do) and it became an important chapter in my spiritual journey. For a number of reasons, however, even as my Christian faith has grown and developed, particularly in the aftermath of the affair and subsequent reconcilliation, my own beliefs and practices have diverged enough from the RC church that i no longer consider myself to be "Roman Catholic" even though i still attend church there with her and the kids. During the period of the A and my own GAL/growth, i became involved, via a good friend (My W's bff's now-XH) with a nearby independent protestant church with a more evangelical bent. Won't belabor all of the specifics, but suffice it to say that the messages i'd hear there on sunday, starting from the very first time i went about two weeks after BD, seemed to speak directly to me-- in fact i am convinced that they did-- and that i was meant to be at that church. The growth and development in my faith and the understanding of some things i gained while going there were instrumental in my own journey and recovery and, ultimately, in the reconcilliation of my MR. I had tried to get my W to go there (as, interestingly, had her bff who at the time was still cohabitating with my friend her then STBXH) and she did view a couple of the Sunday services via TV, once with all four of us (before we know bff's true colors) and once just with me, but said the pastor didn't appeal to her and that he didn't seem trustworthy. Of course, her first exposure was a sermon about MR's and not giving up on them and being committed "to staying" no matter what which, at the time, flew directly in the face of her WW mindset. The church is also much less traditional than a RC church, with people calling out alot in the southern baptist tradition (We are in Virginia) and live Christian pop/folk music instead of the typical choir/organ. I thought she might open up a bit to it after we had reonciled, and i have alluded to the services without directly suggesting we go, but she hasn't bitten. I still watch the services online on Sunday evenings if i have time or, more likely, listen to the podcast of the services later in the week while i am working out. I continue to find them very helpful and inspirational but have not been able to figure out a way to share them with my W. One of the things i find so attractive about this church is that they are VERY big on service and giving back to the community, and also on small focus and prayer groups-- they are constantly doing both of these things, are pretty organized about it, and make it extremely easy to get involved, and these are two areas I have always felt i should be doing more in, particularly service. It is also a VERY positive and uplifting/forgiving atmosphere-- much the opposite of the typical Catholic Guilt Trip (apologies to the Catholics on here) which i feel would really be great for her. All that said, NOT that i have anything against the RC faith in a vacuum-- i know that prople come to God in different ways, and that that way works very well for some people... its just that i have moved past it and have found answers and opportunities i didn't have before at this new place. At any rate... I'd get involved with her at the RC church, too... but just doesn't seem like there are the same opportunities and DEFINITELY not the same level of energy in the congregation. I'd really be open to suggestions, here... and she and i have never been that great about openly discussing our faiths or even praying together outside of church. She tends to be pretty private about it, and has noted on several occasions that she is extremely uncomfortable, even borderline resentful at times at the ease with which evangelicals call out to and converse with God, particularly during extemporaneous prayer, "like it comes so natural and i just don't know how to do that". Obviously all the catholic praying is fairly prescribed, and there is not much opportunity to just "talk to God on your own terms"... and this is the way she was raised and where she is comfortable... Except, obviously, for the guilt she feels at all the "Bad things she has done" (in addition to the A, she, in desperation, had an abortion at a very young age-- freshman in college-- and has never really gotten over the grief and guilt from that). IDK.. like i said, a sticky situation in an area that should, ideally, be an area of refuge/strength for us. I pray for some resolution in this area because i know it could be the bedrock that could fully protect our MR forever... but i just don't know where to go with it. Obviously, any thoughts anyone has on this w3ould be welcome.

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It's like the story of feeding the two wolves.


I love the fable of the Two Wolves. I have some Native American heritage back there, my great great Grandmother, so it speaks to me. The second tattoo i got was actually a yin/yang of two wolves, black and white, fighting.


______
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires." --Sg. of Sg.--2:7

"So often times it happens, that we live our lives in chains, and we never even know we have the key." -- Eagles III--1:3
Re: Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?) [Re: hoosjim] #2861996
08/19/19 09:14 PM
08/19/19 09:14 PM
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Hi HJ. Speaking from the dark side...I´d give her the benefit of the doubt. I find myself in some how similar situations. It´s about doing some kind of damage control. Trying to keep dark things that could be triggers for our past behaviors: we carry guilt and shame man. We are not free of that and we don´t want to acknowledge the pain we have done to our loved ones. We try to evade that the most.

I know she did wrong going where she went. She knows that too. Some part of reality she doesn´t want to face: our own wrongdoing.

We must face our own demons. We can´t run away forever. You may see the white and black mosaic on the floor HJ, but there´s grey everywhere. The two wolves...


WW H(me): 49
W: 44
T: 24 M: 19
S: 14
Piecing since 03/2016
Saw the light in the storm
Re: Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?) [Re: hoosjim] #2862019
08/20/19 01:15 AM
08/20/19 01:15 AM
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Jim, I guess my problem would be that you have no real way of knowing if OM was in town or not. I don't mean to make it worse for you, but it is vacation season. I assume he has people near you he could have been in visiting. I am sorry but the hiding and deception would make my mind go to the worst possible scenario. It just doesn't feel quite right. The phone being out of range. Her being where she shouldn't have been. Who she was with. Just seems like a perfect storm.


M(50), W(51),D(15)
M-20, T-22 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Re: Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?) [Re: hoosjim] #2862095
08/20/19 04:21 PM
08/20/19 04:21 PM
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I went to the dictionary to make sure I was using the correct spelling and form of "conscience". Maybe it's due to the subject matter in our previous posts, but I found the definition matching up with that subject.

"The concept of conscience, as commonly used in its moral sense, is the inherent ability of every healthy human being to perceive what is right and what is wrong and, on the strength of this perception, to control, monitor, evaluate and execute their actions. Such values as right or wrong, good or evil, just or unjust, and fair or unfair have existed throughout human history but are also shaped by an individual’s cultural, political and economic environment. The closer our inner state of conscience identifies with the higher perception of these concepts, such as good, right, just, and fair, the higher our degree of “conscience", and less physical stress is experienced if we feel that we act according to these concepts."

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She repeated again that she was going to tell me but just couldn't find the right time,


To which her response was "I don't really think you would have been "okay" with it ahead of time".


IMHO, your RWW (recovering WW) knew you would not be okay before she decided to go to that bar. (BTW, thanks for the clarification in the two bars.) Call it intuition, instincts, smarts, conscience, or whatever.......she knew better. She knew how you truly feel about her BFF's influence. Yet, she willingly went along with the group. And, whenever a woman says she was going to tell you but just couldn't find the right time........I call it b.s. I think she was playing with time, hoping that the subject never had to come up. However, when you pulled back and was cool to her for a few days, she ran out of time. Did she have a guilty conscience based on her moral/spiritual values? Was she disappointed in herself (and don't be surprised to hear her use this one), considering she had worked hard the past few months to build trust back into the MR..........and then carelessly through it away? I don't like how she grabs onto the line "I thought we were past this". She may have wanted YOU to get to the place that it didn't bother you if she returned to some former conduct whenever going out with BFF..........but she knew you wouldn't be too happy, and that's why she didn't bring it up before she went.

You had previously wondered if she didn't care about your feelings and the pain it caused you. It's like WW's have a teenager's brain. They don't think it through to the end and the consequences it might cause. They think they can hang out with the wrong people and not be pulled into wrong actions. She knew there was a chance you wouldn't like it if she asked beforehand, so she just didn't say anything. To me, that is an action. It says it was more important to her to go along with her friends, than to be open with you about what was really going on that night (when her phone went dead, etc.). If she was innocent of any inappropriate conduct, all she had to do was tell you what happened. Instead, she chose to conceal as best she could.

So, what happened between the last time she went out with her BFF and this time? Maybe nothing. Like I said, I have to wonder if she thinks that in time she will be able to go out with those women and it not lead to something inappropriate? IMHO, she can't fall back into those old behavior patterns and expect different outcomes. The first time meeting with BFF, she did all the things she could to secure your feelings. But the more frequently she's around her, I think her resolve weakens.


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Neither me nor my W have been to OM's bar since the A ended and we reconciled, though we had discussed going there together as a "take back", and I have come close to ordering out for wings from there and going to pick them up, and have told W so, though had not yet done so.


I think I expressed my views about this in the past, but why would you do that? I know, someone IRL suggested, but it seems crazy. Don't play with that sort of stuff. Stay away from negative influences, even when your MR is strong.

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Hadn't really resonated with me until then, but i realized that's exactly what happened with my W and OM-- letting someone of the opposite sex get too close. So, now, I don't go there except with W and, preferably, a whole group of friends, ideally other couples.


I'm really glad to hear that!

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She also had not been pining after bff. As I mentioned, she had had a "Trial visit" about three months ago with one other girl (whom I basically trust) and she showed exemplary behavior-- constantly texting me, letting me know what they were doing and where they were (i double checked all of this last week after the recent incident), didn't get drunk, and came home early and made a date for us even though the other two wanted her to stay. She continues to show me the kind of respect and affection that she almost never did before, and all seemed well. Really a head scratcher why she did this, and i hope it wasn't a "thrill" that she'll want to repeat.


She can't let down her guard. Have you discussed and agreed to certain ground rules to observe, as a means of shielding your MR from the things that lead to mistrust, suspicion, and inappropriate conduct? I mean, this could be an opportunity for the two of you to form a plan that protects your relationship from affairs. I'm not saying there is an affair proof plan, but thinking it won't ever happen to you is a snare that catches many couples unaware. I am not going to temp the strength of my MR by contacting someone on a dating site. I'm going nowhere around something of that nature. I'm not going to engage in online games, although I feel like it wouldn't bother me..........why would I temp it? I'm not going online to take back anything. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and you have to make some choices in your life and stay away from particular influences. If you run with the hogs, the slop starts looking okay to have for a snack.......or meal.

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i know that prople come to God in different ways, and that that way works very well for some people... its just that i have moved past it and have found answers and opportunities i didn't have before at this new place. At any rate... I'd get involved with her at the RC church, too... but just doesn't seem like there are the same opportunities and DEFINITELY not the same level of energy in the congregation. I'd really be open to suggestions, here... and she and i have never been that great about openly discussing our faiths or even praying together outside of church. She tends to be pretty private about it, and has noted on several occasions that she is extremely uncomfortable, even borderline resentful at times at the ease with which evangelicals call out to and converse with God, particularly during extemporaneous prayer, "like it comes so natural and i just don't know how to do that".


It's a touchy situation for many people. It can feel very uncomfortable when you visit a congregation who worships in a style that's different than your own. And, let's be real here........some people in some congregations can get a little aggressive with newcomers, wanting them to join. Do you feel weird openly discussing your faith together, or is it mostly your W who feels uncomfortable? I don't understand why she would resent it, unless she felt someone was trying to force her to believe or practice in a way she's doesn't welcome. If that's the case, I would resent it, also. IDK, but based on past discussions with you, your W seems to tie religion to guilt, so she might see you as trying to use faith-based beliefs as a way of controlling.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?) [Re: sandi2] #2862548
08/23/19 01:22 PM
08/23/19 01:22 PM
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Posts: 18,046
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sandi2 Offline
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sandi2  Offline
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Posts: 18,046
How are things going?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re: Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?) [Re: hoosjim] #2862620
08/23/19 10:28 PM
08/23/19 10:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 473
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artista Offline
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artista  Offline
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Posts: 473
wow, Hoosjim... i have been gone about a year... last July my 93-year old mother had lung surgery and survived... in August, my very much alive 66-year old brother had a benign tumor removed from his brain... he was supposed to be in the hospital for 5 days after the surgery and then go home... he survived the surgery but never woke up... he passed 3 weeks later, and it was shocking and devastating to our very close-knit family... we never expected him to die, and his passing was very hard on all of us, and especially my parents... in November my 93-year old mother broke her hip... she had surgery, survived the surgery and has recovered... she is as active as she was before breaking her hip... sadly, my 95-year old daddy passed away in late January... he died in the kindest, most gentle way possible... he went to take a nap and never woke up... so i have been away a little more than a year... here we are in August and today i decided to take a look at DB... first time since July 2018... i was looking for familiar posters, and i saw your name... so i am here, and i am interested in reading your situation and responding this weekend...

--artista

Re: Hoosjim's back... and maybe his WW, too (?) [Re: hoosjim] #2862625
08/24/19 01:25 AM
08/24/19 01:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 473
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artista Offline
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artista  Offline
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okay... i am home from work now... i think it's good that you noticed the red flags and you are not rationalizing them as much as you used to... i have been in these situations, and sometimes it was me really being deceitful, and sometimes it was me being in a situation that i had not planned, but was not brave enough to tell my husband... and i did behave the same way your wife has... overly affectionate, etc... once when this happened, and my husband was suspicious for maybe a day or two, he finally confronted me, and this pretty much what he said: "artista, you have tell-tale signs when you are hiding something... i gave you a chance to be open and honest with me, but so far you have not taken that opportunity..." i want to say that this happened twice after our reconciliation... the other time, while i was having lunch by myself at a sushi restaurant, he called me and asked me, "is our marriage over?" boom! i said, "no... why???" and he said he knew i was hiding something... and both times i came clean... both times it was silly of me to not be upfront with my husband... i had not done anything wrong, until i kept things to myself... perhaps you can tell her that she has tell-tale signs when she is hiding something...

--artista

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