Thanks DNJ, I have forgiven him, no resentment or bitterness, and a lot of compassion. One day if not already, he will see all he lost because of his MLC decisions. My life is good once again, but his life is in shambles and his future doesn’t look too great either. Tough to start all over financially when you are close to retirement. So I feel for him. It’s hard to watch the shocking unravelling of his life. Have I accepted it’s over,,,, logically yes, heart wise maybe not quite. I find myself strangely drawn to the idea of reconnecting even though logically I see it as absolutely impossible to bridge the huge chasm from what is the reality now to what it would have to be if we were ever to restore our marriage. I can’t see it working and I don’t want it to work either to be honest. But still,,there is that ‘toying’ with the idea at times. And seeing once again the impossibility of it ever working. I wonder if hearing him say he regrets what he did would help me accept it fully,,that it’s over and I can let it go. Unless or until I hear that from him, I will forever wonder if he ever loved me. If he does have regrets it would suggest that he did love me and valued our marriage. It wouldn’t change the impossibility of ever being together again, but I would get some peace knowing our lives together meant something to him.
It’s now just days away to the 5th anniversary of BD. The first few years there was a fair bit of contact, then last two years it has dwindled to almost nothing or just a few contacts a month. None of the contacts suggested any change in his MLC brain until recently. Last month he asked for my help in finding a tenant for his apartment. I’ve had lots of experience being a landlord while he has had none so I helped for no other reason than It’s just who I am. I would give the same help to anyone who asked. I didn’t assume anything about his request for help either because we are on good terms and it would make no sense for him to ask anyone else.
Here is the part I am wondering about and would like opinions on. He told me he would like to take me to dinner to thank me for my help. In the past we have never gone to dinner but on rare occasions to a pub for a drink and pub food, but never for dinner. He suggested we go to a new restaurant in the area that he had checked out and looked good. So I agreed. He was going to pick me up but it’s walking distance from me so I declined and met him there instead. I got there first and was surprised to see the restaurant was dimly lit with candles at the tables, live music and a dance floor with flashing lights. It looked like a restaurant for a romantic date night. He selected a table right on the edge of the dance floor although there was no one dancing being it was a weeknight. But it was a dark atmosphere and we had to read the menu by candlelight. The conversation during dinner was typical of what you would expect if you didn’t know your dining partner that well. Nothing remotely personal but pleasant nonetheless. But I noticed several times during the dinner that he was holding eye contact far longer than typical and I was always the first one to break contact. I was slightly uncomfortable about it as well. It’s been ages since I held onto any hope for our marriage and I now find I resist any thought of reconciling. I do wonder though if he has advanced somewhat on his MLC path.
What do you all think? It’s not much but it is definitely different than it has been since BD. And I find myself moving away from what I see are movements toward me, if that is what they are.
I do wonder though if he has advanced somewhat on his MLC path.
The candlelit dinner with H is interesting. It certainly is different than his usual over the last five years. For the moment, another peak out of the tunnel. And until demonstrated behaviour becomes consistent, treat it as such.
I do believe H is making progress. To what end? That depends upon many factors.
Originally Posted by Adios
The first few years there was a fair bit of contact, then last two years it has dwindled to almost nothing or just a few contacts a month.
Your H is a clinger; staying in contact over the years. My XW was/is a vanisher; I’ve only had a few contacts over the entire timeline of 4 1/2 years. H’s appreciation dinner does not sound that far out of character. He and you having gone to the pub a couple of times. I’d infer he truly felt appreciative and even sincere in wanting to thank you for your help.
And there in lay his confusion. His feelings return. He quashes them again. He runs. He looks back. He temp checks. He looks away. And by the way, he knows the BD date as well. He knows it’s the fifth anniversary, and I suspect will be somewhat stirred by it.
What happens when these folks realize we are not the cause of their pain? What happens when the realize we are not the villain in their story/narrative? When they realize it’s a narrative? Some run again. Some look inward. Some run after that too. Some dig deeper.
I pretty sure H was rather lucid of where and when he was during that dinner. Pleasant small talk, eye contact, and such. Sure, all fine and good stuff. However, until OW is no more, he is running.
Perhaps their relationship is about run its course. Perhaps, he and her had a fight. Who knows. Until she is gone, keep doing what you do. Live your life.
Originally Posted by Adios
I was slightly uncomfortable about it as well. It’s been ages since I held onto any hope for our marriage and I now find I resist any thought of reconciling.
That is understandable. You wisely see and know that this could be yet another false indication. You are also use to your current life, and there is no need to up end it. In fact, if any reconciling were to start - don’t up end your life.
If it is to be, let H catch up to you. As in, decide to run to something, rather than run from something.
I do believe H has made progress. These external displays harken to the internal progress made, for most MLCer progress occurs internally and hidden from us/others. The real interesting part from H’s apparent sudden shift - is your progress. Healed, forgiving, compassionate, and unsure.
Keep moving forwards Adios. Live a great life. And if your flickering hope burns a little brighter, that’s ok.
D
Last edited by DnJ; 06/05/2204:05 PM.
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I think it is understandable to seek answers to these sorts of questions, but the reality is that they are questions no one can answer for you. Each of our stories is different; the people involved different; the circumstances different.
It sounds like you guys have been able to keep a good relationship throughout this and that it was not unpleasant for you. If you are inclined to keep seeing and/or talking to him you may learn something over time or you may not. It might be the start of something, it might have been an end of something for him. Time will give you the answers you seek.
Of course the original DB advice probably applies now more than ever. Keep moving forward with your own life. Don't have any expectations of what is happening or why. Participate if it provides something for you, decline if it doesn't. Make your best life for you.
First Off,,, thank you DnJ and OwnIt for responding to my last post. I attempted to reply - twice - and both times my reply just disappeared into thin air. I didn’t have it in me to try a third time thanks to the arrival of back spasms for a week followed by Covid for almost 2 weeks. Your responses were food for thought and I appreciated your comments.
An interesting update. It’s a long post, hopefully not too long. Over the last 5 years I think I’ve mastered how to be a ‘maybe’ standing LBS. The first 6 months maybe not so much (when I didn’t know any better) but after that I stuck to the LBS handbook fairly closely. He always initiated contact and I never did unless it was impossible not to. There were very few times during the 5 years since BD that I initiated contact and then I kept it very brief. When we did talk or come face to face for any reason I was calm and pleasant. I had zero expectations. No relationship talks and I asked no questions about the OW. He was a clinging boomerang for years 1 & 2, then barely a boomerang for years 3, 4, and 1/2 of year 5, then last 6 months of year 5 he is back to a clinging boomerang. Over the years his contact has varied anywhere from everyday to barely once a month or so. I believed and accepted that he was gone for good and just got on with living my life and learned to enjoy it as well. I was busy enough that I thought about him less and less over time. I felt free from those darn obsessive thoughts that plagued me for years. I cared less and less that he was still with his sleezy OW.
My husbands OW lives a 4 hr plane trip away. Too far to drive so he flew to visit her every few weeks. Twice he flew her out here to visit and they would vacation on this side of the country. It was a hot, passionate addictive mutually Limerant relationship but a very turbulent one. Lots of fights, breakups that lasted for days to a week. Many fights were about me and his endless stalling to divorce me, despite his promises to her that he would. It may have been because he became such a procrastinator about doing so many things but I also have a hunch he didn’t really want to end our marriage for emotional reasons. He said many little things over the years that supported my theory. I wasn’t looking for clues either but found a lot of his comments very odd if he had truly moved on.
Then Covid arrives on the planet and then the covid vaccine soon after. The OW is an extreme anti-vaxxer and is deep into conspiracy theories about vaccines. She refused to be vaccinated and further refuses to be within a mile of anyone who has had a vaccine because she believes they will shed vaccine cells on her and make her deathly ill. So my DH also became an anti-vaxxer and got deep into conspiracy theories as well. Then our country shut down travel for unvaccinated people. They could not board a plane, train, or bus without showing proof of vaccination. Tough for DH and OW to see each other and they haven’t now for almost 8 months although my adult D says they still talk on the phone.
When covid restrictions were removed I figured he would be booking a flight to see her but my D says he has no plans to go to see her. I found that hard to believe and put it down to a real inability to go because of a few things - a cousin and his family coming here to see him, and the recent purchase of an investment property that left him with lots to do after possession which coincided with the removal of travel restrictions. But D says he just doesn’t want to go. OW is a leech who enjoyed having a man pay for absolutely everything they did that cost money. D says he now has goals that are incompatible with resuming that relationship. D also noted that he has gradually but noticeably improved these last 8 months. Calmer, conspiracy theories are barely mentioned, he is far less angry with her and other family members, and she says he is just different now. At the same time she was noticing that he is much better, I noticed a dramatic increase in his positive contact with me. He is relaxed, friendly, chatty, and has invited me out 3 times recently - twice for dinner and once for a casual pub night. He asked for my help with documents related to his investments and then way over paid me for my help. I didn’t expect anything and was quite happy to help him for nothing. But he knew I had a big house upgrade bill and wanted to help me with that. Wow, I tried to refuse but he went ahead a did a direct deposit to my account. Then when all was said and done he wanted to go for dinner on an outdoor patio. He had already overpaid me for the work I did so I tried to pay my share of the bill but he flat out refused. This is the second dinner in a few weeks, the first being at a restaurant with a romantic date atmosphere. It was expensive and he wouldn’t take anything from me then either.
Then the pub night - it followed a quick meeting about the documents and was a last minute “are you hungry - want to go for wings and beer?” I didn’t really as I was unusually tired and just wanted to go home to sleep but I went anyway. I enjoyed it despite being tired - he was so much like his old self, chatty, relaxed, friendly, held eye contact. Same with the dinners. I wondered about his friendliness in the beginning but brushed it off as he was simply grateful that I assisted him with his investment. But then it continued and still continues. He has contacted me almost every day now for over a month. I can’t help wonder if he isn’t beginning to emerge from Replay, or at least from the thicker fog within replay. We have talked more in the last month than in the last 3 years. All initiated by him. There is no hint of romantic interest from him and I’m not hinting that either. However I have often thought I’d like a chance to restore things if it ever came to that but I never expected it would. Now I don’t know if I want that anymore - I like my life the way it is now although I do miss the comfort and closeness we had within our marriage. And I also don’t know if it did come to that how to proceed. I’m so used to practicing the 180 but obviously that has to go if anything is to progress. When do I begin to initiate anything without sending him running for the hills? Or is it still too early for any of that and should I still leave initiating to him? When he asked the last time if I wanted to go somewhere for dinner, I said sure but alternatively suggested we could bbq at my place instead and he said ‘no, let’s go out. I’d like to go out.’. No problem but I offered to do the bbq another night which he readily agreed to. But I haven’t arranged anything yet.
I’m still holding back on initiating and maybe because I’m not convinced it’s all over with him and the OW. I just learned his work partner started 5 weeks vacation at the same time the vaccine requirement to fly was removed and isn’t due back to work until early August. He can’t take time off from work until he gets back. So if it wasn’t for that would he have been out to see her already? And will he go in Aug when he can take time off? It’s a big milestone birthday for her then too so I can’t imagine him not going to see her. And if he does will this once powerful Limerant relationship fire up again? I suspect so. The absence has given him a breather and time to step back and reevaluate but I don’t think he’s smart enough to realize the danger of getting sucked right back into it, the minute they spend time together. He will probably go because she will ask and expect him to since it’s her birthday and he, being a nice guy, will comply. I’m that sure it will go this way that I’ll bet money on it. Going back 3 years into their relationship they had to take a 2 month break in visits when covid first hit and it was downright dangerous to get on a plane. In those two months he was able to step back and see her in a very different light. He told his D that she is a sociopath, that has zero empathy or compassion for anyone. Then D told me that OW often verbally attacks him and said you wouldn’t believe the things she says to him. She was sure it would fizzle then but of course he went back after the 2 months break and things went right back to the crazy intensity for another 18 months. I do wonder if he has truly changed or if he will slip right back into the fog once he sees her again. I’m ready for that if it happens. I’ll just continue with my own life as I have been and just chalk this recent reconnection to a temporary thing,,, and soon too end.
Or,,,,, is there something I can do to make a difference in how this plays out? Is he ripe for reconnection or just killing time until they can resume things. When do I switch from years of practicing the 180 to an approach that might encourage him to keep moving in my direction? I really have no clue how to proceed from here.
Worth noting, maybe, is that he has seen a therapist several times this year. About what - no idea but it does coincide with his recent improvement.
Adios if you’re asking if you can control the outcome the answer is no. Your 180s are for you and not to attract him back. I guess my question is do you want him back because it didn’t work out with OW? Say he was interested in coming back. What would you require from him? Would you sweep it under the rug as it never happened?
It is interesting the direction of H’s path during the last eight months.
Originally Posted by Adios
…he was so much like his old self, chatty, relaxed, friendly, held eye contact. Same with the dinners. I wondered about his friendliness in the beginning but brushed it off as he was simply grateful that I assisted him with his investment. But then it continued and still continues. He has contacted me almost every day now for over a month. I can’t help wonder if he isn’t beginning to emerge from Replay, or at least from the thicker fog within replay. We have talked more in the last month than in the last 3 years. All initiated by him.
His behaviour is becoming consistently demonstrated.
He has contacted you every day for over a month. I suspect you have answered him, pretty much every day as well.
Originally Posted by Adios
I have often thought I’d like a chance to restore things if it ever came to that but I never expected it would. Now I don’t know if I want that anymore - I like my life the way it is now although I do miss the comfort and closeness we had within our marriage.
Originally Posted by Adios
Is he ripe for reconnection or just killing time until they can resume things. When do I switch from years of practicing the 180 to an approach that might encourage him to keep moving in my direction? I really have no clue how to proceed from here.
I get it. We do find our new normal and do not want to loose our gains.
Originally Posted by Adios
I also don’t know if it did come to that how to proceed. I’m so used to practicing the 180 but obviously that has to go if anything is to progress. When do I begin to initiate anything without sending him running for the hills? Or is it still too early for any of that and should I still leave initiating to him?
Yes we do have to redirect our 180 efforts somewhat. Realize those 180s - GAL, live for you, stand for you - are you. You don’t loose those convictions. And you already have shifted some 180s - Dim, dark, NC - you and he speak almost daily; more in the past month than you have in the past three years.
Is H ready or looking to reconnect? I do not know for certain. No one does. However, things do look favourable towards that end.
Are you ready or desiring to reconnect? As you’ve wisely said, you are not sure. My advice, that’s not no, so go with maybe you are.
So what to do? Reconnecting is far less common, and much less scripted than a crisis.
You, the LBS, has done the inner work, healed, become better not bitter, and so on. H is moving forward, and you are correct he is still not yet comfortable in his own skin, proceed gently.
Something immediate: Call him. Invite him over for a BBQ. That is a nice 180 from him always calling. In my view, H is jumping through lots of hoops of his own volition (daily contacts), it doesn’t hurt to acknowledge that by action. And it shows your interest. Have a nice supper and conversation. It will be interesting to see what information he offers.
Some things more general (in no particular order):
You are the more healed one. For a while you will have to lead things a bit. And your forgiveness, compassion, and understanding will be tested. It’s not fair, I get it. You will need to meet him more than half way at times. H is looking and seeking that you don’t hate him. That you might even forgive him. Of course, that is in an effort for him to forgive and love himself too. He is not out of the woods yet, though he is walking towards the edge.
Lead slowly and gently. Mostly it will seem and appear that H is leading; you just gently steer is all.
Live your life. Be you. You will not loose those gains. In fact, those traits and being healed are attractive. Let H run to catch up to you. It’s not the other way around; it’s not you slowing down for him. And he will catch up, if he wants too.
You are not recreating your marriage. You are creating something new. It would be dating, and exploring where this goes, and who he is. Seeing if he and you are compatible.
Don’t worry about losing him or your reconnection. You’ve lost him long ago. Right now, he is turning back is all. Nothing really to lose when you look at it. Maybe lots to gain though.
OW will need to be discussed at some point. Purging her from his life will take time. He will have withdrawal. Boundaries and stay the course. One example, is he needs to be one year OW free before he and you live together. One year! And if he reaches out to her, the clocks resets. It’s a serious thing. It’s a serious message. You are serious about reconnecting/reconciliation. Is he? Let him demonstrate it.
During that year - date. Enjoy. Have fun.
You are, and always were, the prize. No need to make him grovel or beg or plead, yet don’t give you away either. It’s not him earning you; it’s him earning your respect and trust.
You will have lots of questions for H. Hold off on most of them. He will answer them in due course.
H, recently, is behaving like a new person. For hopefully he is. This is the man you are talking too and maybe dating. The crisis H will not exist, if H heals well. It’s part of building a new relationship, rather than dredging the old and trying to repair.
Anyhow, just some ideas.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thank you DnJ for taking the time to post such a detailed reply. You gave me much to ponder and I think I am clearer on where I am in this now.
Yes, the last 6 months have been interesting. After months, years really, of seeing absolutely no change, what I’m seeing now is certainly interesting.
This past week there haven’t been the daily calls. I suspect it’s because he either doesn’t need me for any more help, or because his recent moving toward me has scared him, or because he has made plans to visit OW in 2 weeks time. Or a combination of the above. Right now I’d bet money that he has made a decision to see OW and has made firm travel plans. His MLC mind might be telling him it’s cheating on her if he is in close contact with me. Or maybe he sees his own recent actions toward me as leading me on when he is on the verge of seeing his OW again.
Whatever has led him to stop the daily contact is fine with me. I was getting a bit nervous about the direction it was going. Like I said earlier, I like my life the way it is and I’m not sure I want to make room in my life for him anymore. You are right when you say the old marriage is dead. I already see that we are both different enough people now that we couldn’t just pick up where we left off. So that leaves me wondering what a new marriage would look like and I struggle to imagine it. I can’t see us connecting and being as close as we once were even if we were both committed to that. I also feel quite a bit of resistance within me to the idea of actively being his wife again. I don’t think whatever marriage we could put together would work. There,,I said it. I don’t want the marriage back. I would like to reconnect though and maybe reconcile a friendship. But just saying that meets with some resistance within me. It’s possible I might feel differently in the future. He is still in MLC and until he is out of MLC or close to it, I’m fine just staying where I am. This has nothing to do with any residual anger or bitterness, or any other negative feelings. I have released all those feelings over the last few years. He is someone I still love in some measure and I truly wish him the best.
I have decided it’s time to drop the 180 fully. Not because I want him back but because it’s no longer necessary. The 180 kept me from initiating contact or having R talks. I find now that I really don’t desire either which is interesting to me. If he wanted to have a R talk right now I think I would try to change the subject. And initiating contact is no problem if I have a specific reason to do so. But for now, I cannot call just to chat or invite him out to do something. My interest is not strong enough. I also think he is still too far away from the end of his MLC. And I am quite aware I’m just rambling away here, lol.
It’s clear to me that I have as much to figure out of as a LBS as he does as a MLC. I was initially excited a bit to see what appeared to be movement in his MLC. Now, I think I’m more curious than anything since there isn’t a lot of reading on the net about what these later MLC years look like.
If he resumes with the OW as I expect, he will just be following a predictable MLC path. Eventually that R will fall apart and if it doesn’t I’ll be surprised. He will go through withdrawal from her when it ends for the final time. Then when OW has served her purpose in his MLC, he will move thru the difficult later stages. If he moves toward me again during that time I’ll be supportive. I want a restoration of some kind with him but not a marriage restoration. Maybe time and progress will change that but idk. And maybe I need to see more changes in him too. Time will tell.
