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Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning [Re: lumis70] #2861122
08/12/19 06:27 PM
08/12/19 06:27 PM
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lumis70 Offline OP
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It's been a week of ups and downs. Last counseling session was Wednesday of last week. The ride there was fairly tense and my W brought up a comment I made 7-8 years ago that was a comment about her nose said in front of friends. It was not intended to be mean, and I had no idea at the time that she was self-conscious about her nose. This became almost the entire topic of the counseling session...

I apologized (and have MANY times before) and the counselor had us do a validation exercise where I told her I understood how saying this years ago reminded her of an ex that cut her down in front of his family often. I voiced frustrations that nothing I've ever said or done is forgiven, but rather stored away in a drawer to be pulled out at a moment's notice. W said this was just an example of how I 'cut her down' all the time. I challenged her to give a more recent example and she came up with nothing.

The homework we were given by the counselor was to essentially have a date night (alone, without our D), though it wasn't necessarily a date night. More like some one-on-one time outside of the home in a neutral place. We have spent time together, but we haven't completed this yet, and the next (8th) counseling session is tomorrow. I'll come back to this.

On Friday, my W was flirting with me over text, sending photos of herself in the bath and implying that she wanted to have sex later that night. When she came over that night (to drop our D off), we put out D to bed, and then she became extremely aggressive/sad/angry/etc. and said that she was still having issues with her monthly cycle, didn't want to do anything physical, etc. It was a BAD night all around and I tried multiple times to dismiss her but she just seemed to want to prolong a fight/argument. Needless to say, nothing happened that evening physically.

The next day (Saturday), we planned on a family outing. She arrived late and I was assuming the worst... but she walked up and gave me a very passionate kiss. In the car on the way to a community swimming pool, she was extremely positive, said her lady issues had calmed down and she was in a better mood. I told her that she seemed like an entirely different person that I hadn't seen in a long time. The day was great, and we ended up having sex that evening. She left to hang out with her recently divorced friend and stayed at her parents house that night.

On Sunday, I bounced the idea off her that she could come hang out before work and she asked for me to pick her up. We hung out a while, things seemed positive, but she said 'I don't want you to think I'm moving back just because we had a good day and had sex', and I reassured her that I was making no assumptions and just taking things as they came. I took her back to her parents a few hours later and suggested trying an overnight again this upcoming week - she replied that she thought it was a good idea. Our one-on-one night was tentatively planned for Monday evening.

Monday morning (today), she comes to pick up our D. She seemed a little more tense and despite hugging me, quickly says that she didn't want to be touched, and said she wasn't excited about our one-on-one time this evening, or our counseling session tomorrow, and that she was pretty sure she knew what she wanted (implying splitting legally). Great way to start my week. I left her alone with my D and left for work. I haven't texted since and I'm having such a rough time with this back-and-forth behavior.

Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning [Re: lumis70] #2861127
08/12/19 06:39 PM
08/12/19 06:39 PM
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jac12 Offline
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My thoughts are this: you seemed to be pursuing a little bit here and it's making her back off a bit. If she isn't entirely sure what she wants she's likely to go negative as a way of not getting your expectations up.

Keep detaching, do your own thing and let her come to you. Let her ask for an overnight, let her ask to hang out before work.

Maybe the vets will chime in with better advice than me.


H 37
W 31
S 2

T: 7
M: 4

BD 12/18
Separated 2/19
Living back together 04/06/2019
W Moved out again 07/15/2019
Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning [Re: lumis70] #2861129
08/12/19 06:57 PM
08/12/19 06:57 PM
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Steve85 Offline
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Ah yes, the roller-coaster ride. "I want you!" "I don't want you!"

I guess I should put this crudely, the way an anti-divorce author (not MWD) put it to me when I had a paid counseling session with her. I mentioned that right after BD my W actually propositioned me one night. When I asked "Really?" she quickly back-peddled. This author said "she is probably horny as crap" but she didn't say crap.

You were a booty-call. Take it for the physical act that it was.

Afterward she was afraid you would think that it meant something so she put the wall back up. "I am not looking forward to one-on-one time....nor MC.....oh and I still want to split up."

The mistake you are making is to believe what she says, and more than half of what she does. KNOCK IT OFF.

Go back to DB principles...believe nothing she says and only half of what she does...and that half doesn't include sex.


M(50), W(51),D(15)
M-20, T-22 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning [Re: lumis70] #2861132
08/12/19 07:23 PM
08/12/19 07:23 PM
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lumis70 Offline OP
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My reassurances to her are that I am not taking anything at more than face value at the moment. She texted me at work to see if I was doing okay after this morning, and I responded a bit telling her that if she's not feeling this one-on-one thing tonight, that I'm absolutely not pressuring her to do it. Word for word:

"I'm not pressuring you to make any decisions or be uncomfortable if you're not feeling it tonight. The 8 week ultimatum thing was unrealistic in hindsight, there is no rush and I'm taking it day by day."

She replied:

"I think I just felt pressure to have the date before counseling tomorrow but I don't know why"

And I said:

"Then let's postpone! Or not call it a date! Or anything! Our last week has been hills and valleys and that is okay - there is absolutely nothing wrong with not feeling it tonight"

And her:

"Yeah you're right"

So yes, I'm absolutely on the roller coaster of hearing '...if I move back home' and then a day later hearing 'I may never want to be your wife or have sex with you ever again'. I am doing better day-by-day in avoiding the pursuit, but the hot/cold feelings from her make it REALLY easy to slip-up at the exact wrong moment.

Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning [Re: lumis70] #2861133
08/12/19 07:27 PM
08/12/19 07:27 PM
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Steve85 Offline
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Just remember, she has no idea what is going to feel minute to minute.

Remember these words:

When she wants to come back you will know. When she doesn't, you will confused.


M(50), W(51),D(15)
M-20, T-22 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning [Re: Steve85] #2861167
08/12/19 11:09 PM
08/12/19 11:09 PM
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lumis70 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Steve85
Just remember, she has no idea what is going to feel minute to minute.

Remember these words:

When she wants to come back you will know. When she doesn't, you will confused.


In my case, I've been confused even when she did come back for three weeks, but I understand what you mean.

She is seeing her OBGYN this Wednesday in an effort to try to find a way of regulating her hormone levels given the roller coaster ride she's been having since the removal of the implant. Clearly, our problems go far beyond this... but coming from my own experiences with anti-depressants - getting your body chemistry sorted is an integral part of the process of being able to process things.

Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning [Re: lumis70] #2861199
08/13/19 12:46 PM
08/13/19 12:46 PM
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Steve85 Offline
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Eh, I am not sure you are putting your "hopes" in the right area. I came to this board (if you read my initial thread) convinced that my marital problems were due to my W's anti-depressants. I was wrong. And the proof is that now she is still on them and our MR is stronger than it has ever been.

What if her body chemistry NEVER "gets sorted"? Body chemistry is a much art as it is science. You can take two people with the same symptoms, give them the same treatment, and get two entirely different results. Couple that with the fact that you have family medicine and general practitioners prescribing the majority of the psych meds today even though that is not where their expertise lies, and you can see that this is further exasperated.

My goal is to see lumis end a post with a paragraph on what HE is doing to IMPROVE HIMSELF. Not putting his hope into something his W is doing that may or may not have any effect on him.


M(50), W(51),D(15)
M-20, T-22 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning [Re: Steve85] #2861241
08/13/19 05:18 PM
08/13/19 05:18 PM
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lumis70 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Steve85
Eh, I am not sure you are putting your "hopes" in the right area. I came to this board (if you read my initial thread) convinced that my marital problems were due to my W's anti-depressants. I was wrong. And the proof is that now she is still on them and our MR is stronger than it has ever been.

What if her body chemistry NEVER "gets sorted"? Body chemistry is a much art as it is science. You can take two people with the same symptoms, give them the same treatment, and get two entirely different results. Couple that with the fact that you have family medicine and general practitioners prescribing the majority of the psych meds today even though that is not where their expertise lies, and you can see that this is further exasperated.

My goal is to see lumis end a post with a paragraph on what HE is doing to IMPROVE HIMSELF. Not putting his hope into something his W is doing that may or may not have any effect on him.


Fair enough - I've just felt that it was irresponsible to ignore a few points; I'm not a doctor, but I am a fairly intelligent and educated person, so forgive my analytical mind a moment, then I'll move on:

1. When she was on a natural cycle, one day prior to her period she would have an 'off' day nearly every month, like clockwork. Now, I've dated plenty of women prior to my marriage... the one-day per cycle changes I'm talking about with my W are NOT just PMS but a profound difference in her personality (like a full blown Jekyll/Hyde thing). The weird part is, a day later Jekyll looks back and says 'who the hell was I yesterday' EVERY time, but Hyde doesn't seem to know Jekyll exists, even when things were great a day prior.

Is this a chemical or hormonal imbalance? Mental illness? Who knows... but it is my W, and I accept her regardless. She and I both recognize this as normal, and on a monthly basis we've just dealt with it.

2. Her mood has worsened since receiving the birth control implant following the abortion. When I say worsened, I mean the same Jekyll and Hyde difference, but on a longer term and in a more gradual manner. She has also been tired 24/7, etc. I can't describe in words how large of a difference this is but I can say that I am seeing the same thing noted in the point above becoming the norm. A few red flags that she has thrown up:

"I just want to stop feeling like a crazy person" or "...like I'm going crazy"
"I don't know what's going on with me"

3. Five to six months into the implant her period effectively flipped from being a 7-10 day thing to being nearly the whole month, and significantly more of an impact on her day to day life (worded for brevity... but you get it). This coincided with me discussing with my counselor the 'fog' that I felt over our relationship - I was noticing that something was changing in her mood, but she was being secretive about it so it just felt 'off'. This also coincided with the EA she had online... but I digress. Another red flag at this time:

"I don't know what is going on, but I need to get this implant taken out..." in reference to her not being able to 'get in the mood' when we were being intimate - a problem we have NEVER had in our relationship

4. After she left, we agreed that she would get the implant removed ASAP. She did, and within a week, she returned home and her personality was effectively back to normal... or even an overshoot. This was a total night and day difference - almost to an excessive level; she was talking about renewing our vows, being so in love with me and our family, being happy to be home, bringing her belongings back home and telling me it was a 'forever' move, and even talking about having another child. Yes - believe nothing you hear and half of what you see... but these were legitimate and profound changes in her behavior... and VERY suddenly. I was cautiously optimistic. She looked back and saw the 'Hyde' behavior and acknowledged it saying:

"Feeling like that was making me think I was falling out of love with you - I can't believe how different I feel now"

Again... I'm not a doctor, but I absolutely know the effect of having a maintenance level of a synthetic hormone in your system and suddenly removing it. You end up with a sudden deficit of a hormone/chemical because your body was able to become lazy with production given the synthetic source. Eventually, your body realizes this, and overcompensates in an effort to reach equilibrium. Which brings us to...

5. About two weeks after returning home, she began to express distrust and the same standoffish behavior. This continued to get worse and worse until she moved back to her parents. A day later, her period started. This was a little over three weeks ago and she has effectively had her period three times, back to back, with only a day of downtime between.

Probably not coincidentally, these few downtime days have also been the days when she has done things like walk up and kiss me and say she loves me. The last day like this was Saturday and I told her that it was like a night and day difference from the day prior; that was also the day we had sex. Booty call or not... she was a different person that day, completely.

She talked about going on a low-dose birth control pill around this time to regulate her cycle and I suggested talking to her OBGYN during an appointment she already had booked this week.

So, to respond to your question:

Quote
What if her body chemistry NEVER "gets sorted"? Body chemistry is a much art as it is science. You can take two people with the same symptoms, give them the same treatment, and get two entirely different results.


I am not referring to her anti-depressants with this but rather the fact that she is experiencing physical symptoms of an endocrine system imbalance given her natural cycle is entirely different from the cycle she is experiencing right now. This really seems to tie-in with withdrawal symptoms of a single hormone birth control being suddenly removed from her system. All I can do is encourage her to seek medical assistance for this, and I feel that I have committed this much to her by marrying her. This is not the cause of our issues, but it is likely muddying the waters at the moment. I also cannot deny that the separation had led to me seeking self-improvement, so there may be a silver lining.

If her chemistry never goes back to where it was prior, or if she has simply changed as a person. I will have to accept that she isn't the person she was before and make decisions in the best interest of myself and my D. I'm not fully at that bridge yet; I feel as if my W really is in a state of distress right now. I don't think it's total denial to say that I'd feel more accepting once her physical symptoms (i.e. the constant back-to-back irregular periods) subside.

To improve myself, I am focusing on the following small steps:

1. Practicing empathy and validation in my interactions with everyone.
2. Focusing more attention on my D when I'm caring for her - playing more, narrating her life in an effort to help her speech skills, going on walks with the stroller.
3. Trying to connect with friends more, even if just via text (since they are quite busy).
4. Going to church on Sunday with my D.
5. Visiting with my neighbor in the evenings; he has a newborn and is going through a bit of a rough patch himself. Just a way to keep social.
6. Keeping myself busy in the garage - I'm a bit of a homebody and fairly broke at the moment, so I've just been inventing small, but time-consuming tasks to do such as rebuilding my motorcycle engine, etc.

Last edited by lumis70; 08/13/19 05:20 PM.
Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning [Re: lumis70] #2862204
08/21/19 05:41 AM
08/21/19 05:41 AM
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lumis70 Offline OP
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A few updates on life first:

1. Daily commuter died, so I borrowed against a project car to buy a used car. Worked out well in the long run and reduced monthly payments overall. Asked for the W's input on purchase via text 'just in case' she would ever potentially be driving it. Got a manual transmission Outback - I'll come back to this.
2. Basement flooded... again. Different room - total loss of the laminate flooring in the master bedroom. No upside to this one.
3. Got a BIG raise at work - 4-5 years overdue, but generous enough to make me happy.
4. Found out about another $600-800 debt to the government due to my W's mismanagement of business taxes/finances. Verified my name was clear from it given it was a LLC business-related thing.

I felt as if things were going pretty well for the last few days. There were a few hiccups such as an argument where she essentially said I bought the car to try to entice her back, should have bought it sooner, etc. I didn't want to buy it... I had to - she has no vehicle of her own (driving her parents' cars) and the commuter that died was the only child-friendly vehicle I have. Not much to say here... she was mad for the sake of being mad and I just absorbed it.

We had a planned date night last Friday at the suggestion of our counselor. Things were tense in the car and it started off pretty rocky... almost ended before it began. I mentioned that we should find some time for my W to learn how to drive the new car that I recently purchased. She was interested in learning to drive stick, but responded without much enthusiasm. Then I suggested that since we were going to dinner so early, we could grab a drink for happy hour afterwards and she just blew up, saying I was trying to make more plans on the spot, etc. Literally from that point until we got to the restaurant, nothing I said was acceptable... everything just made her mad. I suggested we call off the date and she kept saying she didn't want to as she was looking forward to dining out... then went back to the anger/aggression. I called her out on the fact that I had said nothing that justified the anger, and ultimately we went in and ate - a few bites in and she went from a hangry 9.5/10 to like a 2 or 3. Not the first time that has happened, but the rest of the night went fairly well.

The next day was our weekly family day. She had family plans in the morning and didn't make it over until 2 in the afternoon with our D. It was known in advance and not a problem. D went down for a nap right away and the W suggested using nap time for sex... so we did. Afterward, she said she was tapped out in terms of physical intimacy for the day, but wanted to still hang out with me a while. We ended up having sex again later, and then she left before our D woke up. It was a very positive day, but unlike the first unexpected physical intimacy a week prior, I didn't let myself get carried away thinking it meant she was coming back right away. Baby steps... but if we are connecting physically with each other rather than outside sources, I see this as a good thing.

Started to somewhat 'let go' and just live in the moment. Our communication since then has been very short and to the point, with each of us indicating we missed the other, etc. from time to time. W indicated over text that she wanted to do a family night this Thursday and potentially spend the night (but 'no promises').

Then today rolled around - Tuesday is when my D gets dropped off by the W after work. Our D is now realizing that when my W drops her off at the house, it means my W is leaving shortly after and she has tantrums. This was really a trigger for both my W and I and we definitely got deeper into a relationship talk than we should have. W said she didn't think she wanted to continue the relationship, etc.; all extreme negatives. In hindsight, believe nothing you hear, yeah, yeah... but in the moment and with our D crying about my W leaving soon, we both just really got too emotional. W didn't call off the Thursday family night... but she insinuated that she might; I don't know if it was intended as a threat, her feeling uncomfortable about it after the argument, or what... but it wasn't a fun time.

Her financial situation and plans for the worst-case scenario came up - the best she could offer is that her parents are giving her free rent indefinitely to which I replied: "that doesn't address reliably supporting our child at all". She didn't have a good response other than she had no plans, and said I was trying to tell her she needed to move home because she didn't have any money. I guess I had two goals - I was trying to plant a seed of reality in her head, as it seems like she's trying to avoid reality and responsibility, and I *am* formulating a contingency plan to best serve my D and myself should things go South, and was trying to gauge if she was doing the same.

I've made the decision that should worse come to worse, I will be fighting for full custodial rights but retain 50:50 family time. My D needs her mother, but her mother's financial and moral decisions in the last year alone worry me with regard to any legal decisions regarding our child and her ability to provide reliable care. The inability of my W to ask for help when she is in over her head (financially or otherwise), coupled with the fact that she sent photos of our D to the stranger she had an EA with are some pretty relevant arguing points.

Another more recent one - last weekend (the 10th), she asked to borrow money for drinks with her recently divorced friend - I declined saying I didn't have any extra cash (though it was really because she is so behind on her own income I knew I wouldn't ever see the money back). She proceeded to raid the change jar in the house; the next day I bought shoes for our D using money that was borrowed from my 401(k) as an emergency fund and you better believe I made this point clear to her in a very blunt way.

I hope it doesn't come to a custody fight, but if so, at least I have a loose game plan.

So with regard to the argument today - a step and a half forward and then one back. Guess it's better than the opposite.

Hoping for the best this Thursday evening, but the W has been talking about doing an overnight for two weeks now without actually following through so I'm not holding my breath; just hopeful.

Got to church last Sunday with my D and had a really good day overall. Still working on my motorcycle and trying to think of new ways to GAL. There's a concert later this month I might go to alone and this upcoming weekend I have a friend's bachelor party to attend from Friday through Saturday.

Re: A newcomer in crisis... slowly learning [Re: lumis70] #2862520
08/23/19 05:44 AM
08/23/19 05:44 AM
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lumis70 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by lumis70
Hoping for the best this Thursday evening, but the W has been talking about doing an overnight for two weeks now without actually following through so I'm not holding my breath; just hopeful.


Well... she didn't stick around tonight. Not really surprised but the fact that she keeps saying she wants to stay over, then backing out isn't getting any less hurtful.

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