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Hello OneArt

One of my first thoughts was as job said, he is pushing back from all the pressures of reality.

Your reflections are excellent. I really like this statement:

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...I should probably stop assuming the worst of him all the time.

OneArt, now that is some really top shelf advice from this really smart gal I know.

DnJ


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I've been thinking about something since you wrote this DnJ and realizing that I don't really know what is meant by having no expectations. Does that mean not having low expectations either? I guess my MO has been to assume the worst at all times. But is that having expectations, even if they are bad ones? Is there a point in this process where you have to shift from that negative default to a more open-ended concept of what having no expectations means? Just something I've been musing on. If anyone else has thoughts, as always I'd love to hear them.

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Hello OneArt

I think that assuming the worst at all times is having a lot of expectations. You expect H to behave poorly. Sadly he has not disappointed you very often.

Most times the expression “keep expectations to zero” is for our positive wishing or hoping for something. For example H taking your son out to dinner. Or expecting H to answer a text.

To me expectations are hope with a time frame attached. There is a difference between I hope H contacts son this weekend vs I hope H contacts son.

I posted about this a while ago it may still have merit.

Hope

The idea as you well know is to limit our disappointment in unmet expectations from our spouse. To that end a more open-ended concept is better than the negative default. If we always expect poor behaviour we will subtly project that and others will fulfill it.

You just go about your business with out any expectations good or bad about what your spouse might or will do.

Is keeping expectations at zero the same as expecting nothing? Expecting nothing - a null response, is an expectation. The true view of expectations at zero is in expecting anything. Something will happen, even if it is nothing, we just are not expecting any particular outcome or timeline. Follows more in the just have hope idea.

Of course this no expectations is just for reducing the pressures we place on our spouses and reduces our repeated disappointment and resentment. Healthy people have expectations of them. For example. I expect my daughter to be home after school by 4:00pm. When she isn’t, my expectations are not met, and we have a discussion. This is fine for healthy individuals.

Our MLC spouses are not healthy and will not keep arrangements. Having discussions over unmet expectations would be disastrous. And holding in all that resentment from unmet expectations would be unhealthy for us. Hence - expectations at zero. Eventually, or hopefully, our MLCers will start to come back to reality and heal. Then expectations can be placed upon them - slowly.

However, while they are high strung, squirrel/cat/hummingbird tunnel dwellers we can’t really expect much.

DnJ


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Originally Posted by OneArt
I've been thinking about something since you wrote this DnJ and realizing that I don't really know what is meant by having no expectations. Does that mean not having low expectations either? I guess my MO has been to assume the worst at all times. But is that having expectations, even if they are bad ones? Is there a point in this process where you have to shift from that negative default to a more open-ended concept of what having no expectations means? Just something I've been musing on. If anyone else has thoughts, as always I'd love to hear them.
I have a bit different perspective. My own take about having no expectations is that we need to completely disassociate ourselves from their process and their outcome.

Many of us were the fixers who did the adulting in the relationships and so we have a very hard time letting go of that. It may be easier for me where I have zero contact with my ex, closure on the divorce, but I do still find myself watching out of the corner of my eye hoping perhaps that she'll fall and regret, or rise up and prosper.

I do think that this is an important part of our own healing and moving on. Removing that which tethers us to the past. From my experience in talking to divorced friends, very very few actually manage to do that. When kids are in the mix with practical and regular ties to both sides, I would imagine that it's impossible for them.


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Hi over here. Oh, what nice developments in your thread.

I agree with Andrew's take on "no expectations" In codependency language, it's taking our happiness and joy from our own lives and disentangling our emotional wellness from their unreliability and process. I think when I really and truly started living my life for me, my H was freed to actually engage in some of his emotional work without my being so invested in his specific outcomes.

I also think I have no expectations while also making requests of H now. It means that I have gotten in touch again with who I am, want I want, and what I deserve. I make requests of him that I would make to anyone who occupied this level of importance to me because I deserve to ask for the things that I want, and I deserve to be treated well by people who are family. The asking is healing, but it was only healing once I divorced myself of the result. In not asking, I felt l like I was squishing myself, making myself small, and really actually protecting him from emotional growth.

I ask now. I ask expecting he will most likely say no. Seeing that as a reflection of him rather than whether or not I am deserving has been enormous. It allows me to be true to myself while maintaining no expectations. If he surprises me and says yes (and he does sometimes!), I thank him. If he declines with kindness and states his truth, I thank him for that. If he blasts me, I leave and take my space and refuse to feel that his loss of calm was because I asked. The world asks us for things, and he gets to practice self awareness and boundaries when I ask.

And, this means that I get to be boundaries. People who care about me and want me in their life will sometimes say yes to my requests. If he can't, he can't and it also means he doesn't get to stay. Not from a place of punishment, but from a place of I can't hold space for him or anyone who doesn't treat me like someone they are willing to work to keep.

I also like that you're writing from this place in your life, and I think I'll see if I can do the same. What are the stories of potential reconnection? What does awakening look like? What is on the other side? and, for those people early in MLC, do these stories of the future, a better one for the LBS and also for the MLC, offer enough hope to get through the raw moments of those early days. Or, I guess, alternately, do they tie people to a potential future that may never come?

After almost 2 years, I finally shared the MLC journey with a colleague at my last job. Three months later, she had her own bomb drop experience and her H did pretty much everything my H had done. She so admired my patience and perserverence... but she also kicked him out after 4 short months. Sometimes, I wish I was as firm as her and that I was done but it was so lovely to look at each other's stories from such a distance of time on either side.

Last edited by Surv1ve; 03/05/19 05:25 PM.

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DnJ, of course I knew that you would say that and you are indeed correct. I have been circling this issue for some time and I guess was ready to face it. Expecting the worst is a protective mechanism, but as you say does have the cost of driving down expectations. I remember hearing of a teacher who was given the worst kids, but was actually told she was given the best. At the end of the year, her kids out-tested the top kids. Expectations often drive the level of our performance.

Andrew, excellent points. Of course, not possible with an emotionally-needy 15yo boy. I think had he been older, I would have pushed the divorce through, sold the house, and gone back to the place where I want to live. It would have been much easier for me to move beyond this stuff. It is still my plan, but a little over 2 years down the road (and getting closer every day).

Given S and his needs and wants, I think the best I can do is just be kind and not project my negativity onto OD, while simultaneously keeping my positive expectations in check. Because I no longer see the desirability of a personal relationship with OD, focusing on aiding his relationship with S (even by doing nothing more than staying scrupulously out of it) is something that feels much more psychologically possible.

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Survive, I didn't see your response before posting. I like the idea of asking for things. I think I have begun to do that without knowing so. I told him that he would see S at least every other week or not at all. He actually seemed relieved and has been good about it. I told him that if I go out of my way to tell him something about the kids or send a picture I'm not required to send, that I would appreciate a thank you, out of basic civility. I told him that I don't want to have to look at pictures of OW2 on his phone and he seems to be respecting that. This last time I asked him why he wasn't looking at me when speaking to me. I see these things as good manners, civility, etc. I will not be disrespected by him or anyone else anymore. I have no fear of asking for these things.

I found that when I shared about my miscarriages, there were many people who had experienced the same. I'm finding the same true with MLC. My partner at work is now going through the same thing. She did not support me, so I am trying my hardest to be supportive of her, because I can do so from a place of understanding. She too filed very quickly and is close to wrapping up her divorce. At first I was envious of that, but now I have a neutral feeling about it.

DnJ posted about standing before and when standing really begins. I think he is right. In the beginning we stand for ourselves because we are shattered. After a time, standing becomes a matter of choice. DnJ has also allowed me to embrace my limbo as a choice, rather than something before forced upon me. That simple frame shift has released me from much pain.

Therefore, I think in the early days, it is helpful for people to look for positive stories and to hold on. Then, it becomes a matter of how they handle limbo and what signs they are seeing from their spouse. But, I have a caveat that I would personally advise others. If the MLCer is abusive or withdraws financial support, I would not hold on. I would strike back immediately to protect myself and my children. Mine said mean things to me and did a few petty things to me. He never stopped financial support and even in his darkest days he would respond to me if I asked him to. I guess I saw enough in those actions to hope for a civil resolution, whatever that might be.

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Ok, another OD update. This one is rather interesting in its own way. Sorry it is long. May be the last one for a bit.

I haven't had any communication with OD since the last visit. OD texted S every day that he was working (the week he doesn't see S), and then slowed on the texting at the beginning of the week once he was off. He texted a few days ago saying he was looking forward to seeing S, so we assumed he would show. I gather he texted S at school asking what time he should be picked up.

Since our January talk he has been picking S up at school and then coming here to get S's vehicle so S could practice driving. Today they didn't come here after school. I checked S's tracker to make sure he got picked up and they were driving around the downtown of the town where we live (more on this in a bit).

About 45 minutes later than usual they showed up to get the vehicle. S came in the house. He can't find his wallet. S is notoriously bad about looking for things. I start to go down the stairs to the first floor. S stops me on the stairs. What are you doing, where are you going, he's out there. I said I don't care that he is out there, I'm going to look in your car and mine for your wallet. I said I refuse to act weird around him and you should not either.

I go outside and look in the vehicle (he is parked behind it waiting to pull into that space). I can't find the wallet in S's car. I stop by the passenger window. OD is pretending not to see me. I motion to roll down the window. He does. I say S has lost his wallet, we are looking for it, he'll be out in a bit. He laughs, smiles at me, is being somewhat flirty. He says something about S's age. I then tell him a funny story about something else S lost earlier in the week. He is smiling, communicating nicely, looking me in the eye. I go in the garage and meet S at the back of my car. We find the wallet in a bag in my trunk. I go back inside and they leave.

I had told the only person I talk to IRL about this stuff that I thought while OD got a rush from seeing S again, that I didn't expect it to last long. It is an hour drive, there never seems to be a plan, other than S driving around or going to the movies. OD was never that close to S or that interested in S. I just didn't see him sustaining this. I had also said that I had a feeling that he was becoming depressed again because the texts were less chatty, no punctuation or emojis, a bit of a downer.

S came back about 2 hours later. I say how did it go. He said he was pretty depressed and not really talking. OD told S he was sick. I said sick in what way, a cold? I didn't hear a cold on him at all. S said yes. I said did you tell him that you now have your activity on the day of the week you were seeing him and can't see him next time on that day. S said yes and that S suggested Saturdays. OD seemed nonplussed about the change, said that might work and that S would have to be flexible (you know because since he works 7 days on and 7 off, that is OW2's time and all).

I asked if S told OD that he was recruited to the Olympic development team for his sport (which you would think a father might see as a big deal, especially since it bodes well for college recruiting--this is a big college sport). S said OD didn't seem that excited. I asked if he asked about S's homework, and S said yes, which is good since that was the topic last time.

Now OD hates, hates, hates our town. Every time the name of our town comes up, he says how much he hates this town and our house. He lived here 30 days before I kicked him out because of the ongoing affair with OW1 (we had moved from 3 hours away). This is the swanky suburb of a major city. It is the place where pro ballers live, tech executives, etc. Our house is on the edge of the downtown area of our town. S attends school on the far outer edge of the next town over. Generally OD and S hang out in the town where his school is and never go past our house (which is near the freeway) to go to the downtown of our town. If that makes sense. I said to S, did you drive his vehicle after school? He said no OD drove him. I said why were you driving around the downtown of our town (I told him I wondered what was keeping them and checked the tracker). He said I don't know. He just drove there and was driving all around. I said did he criticize the town when you were driving around? S said no. This is literally a first.

I asked S if anything else happened during the outing. S said he asked OD to come to a race for his sport this weekend that is in the major city. OD told him he would think about it. I thought that was odd (but then I can't picture OD being willing to face the parents and coaches that know he is out of the picture). S said OD told him that he expected S to take good care of S's vehicle (recall OD at first wanted no part of purchasing this vehicle, but then gave me half the money for it less than an hour later). He told S that he expected said vehicle to be clean and waxed at all times. It is a low mileage 4 year old utility vehicle that came to S with a few dents and scrapes. Why does OD care about this?

OD also mentioned drinking a certain kind of alcohol (much harder than beer or cider). Recall this is a guy who never, ever drank until he was 48. S said he mentioned it several times, as though waiting for S to respond. S finally said, why are you talking to me about drinking? My whole life you told me how bad drinking is. OD said, "things change." S says he shot back, "yes, sometimes for the worse." That shut OD up.

So, another unusual visit. OD didn't try to get out of it, but was depressed and had no plan. He tried to ignore me, but was friendly and flirty. He seems to care about S's vehicle. Still trying to be a dad about homework. He seems to be more interested in our town. We are now back to no definitive plan to see S. I doubt he will come to the race. Poor S. I told him I thought this was part of dad's process. Has nothing to do with him. And will probably get worse before it gets better.

I think telling S about the drinking was a message for me. Similar to the prior gun talk. He knows I am a lifelong teetotaler and would be angry with him being pro drinking to my children. I think this was either to get me to explode on him, or test to see if I am accepting of what he has been doing. I don't plan to say anything to him. I think S handled it perfectly.

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That does seem like a really odd time. I am sorry that he places such a low value on time with his son. That is very tragic.

Best of luck to your son on his Olympic development team. That is very exciting!

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Thanks Kate. I don't think he places a low value on time with S, I think this is what a depressed person who has lost touch with what it means to be a father and is in a selfish place does. This process is ugly and the hits keep on coming. But nothing happened here that was unexpected. I think he is still very conflicted. Still circling in and in some ways reconnecting, but still all about himself.

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