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Bern19 Offline OP
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Sorry LH, that was worded poorly. That first paragraph was her explaining the sitch back in December to our MC. Not what she is saying now. Again, I’m not buying what she’s selling, yet. As several have warned me to not listen to what she says, but to watch how she acts. Right now I’m sitting back and watching.


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Right now I’m sitting back and watching.


Just don't wait too long before you put your plan of action in force. She'll slither under the door and act as if the MR is picking up where it left off.....without meeting certain requirements that you should have, as the betrayed H.

During the session with the MC, did your WW ever offer an apology or express regret that she had deceived you and betrayed you for 4 years?

Quote
Wife admitted to having conflicting feelings for OM.


It's the addiction of the affair.

Quote
Claims that there has been contact still,


Even after he chose his M over her? Well, both of them are addicted, and there is no such thing as getting "closure". If he thinks he can contact her without his W knowing, he'll try. Same goes for your WW, if she has not made a decision to do the right thing.

Quote
Said that she no longer feels the same way about the OM as he's shown his true colors by choosing to stay with his wife,


She's just mad at OM. If he contacted her today and convinced her that he was forced to say/do those things but that his heart still belongs to her, yada, yada..........it would be hard for her not to buy into it, b/c she will be going into the very beginning of withdrawals of the affair addiction, and she needs a fix. Her bruised ego may carry her through a few days, but she will crave to have some type of contact, if it's nothing but seeing him like something on social media.

Quote
Now my WW has said it's over, she has agreed to NC with him, however I'm not in a position to take her at her word.


That's true, and that's why you need to require that she agrees to being transparent. The WW has to be held accountable throughout the period they are going through "withdrawals" from the affair/OM. She's been at this for 4 years, so I doubt it is going to be a breeze for her.

As the WW, she doesn't get to pick & choose about how much she will reveal. She doesn't get to claim he is invading her privacy. Only the wayward spouse has to be accountable for their whereabouts and activity. The faithful spouse shouldn't volunteer or agree to join the transparency club. This is not about the faithful spouse's atonement, it's about the wayward spouse who is not trustworthy. So, it's up to the H to decide what type of transparency he needs from his WW. She has to surrender all passwords, delete old texts from OM, block him, etc. It's the H's decision when he will take a look at her phone activity. BTW, she should not know when he looks at her phone, for reasons I can explain later, if necessary. He should not announce when he's going to look, nor have a scheduled time, nor even check every day. \

As for your decision about letting her remain the MBR, I'll add these thoughts. If you have not decided if you want to stay married or get a D, then I suppose you could sleep apart for a few nights. However, under no circumstances should you agree or even call it an in-house separation. Those are killers! It is ultimate cake-eating for a WW. Besides, if you think you will want to work on the MR, then she doesn't need to spending the night behind closed doors from you. While going through withdrawals, she'll be very vulnerable to temptation to contact OM. I know some may say that you can't watch her 24/7....and that is very true. If the WW is authentic about wanting to save her M, then transparency will help her to stay on the straight & narrow road. Sure, she can find a way around it if she wants to break the NC agreement, but if she wants free of those conflicting feelings toward OM, then she will need to get through the withdrawals. If her feelings were beginning to change toward OM before she saw his true colors, then hopefully, she can get through the process faster.....IDK.

Again, I caution you about just sitting back and watching her, b/c you do NOT want to appear passive. I don't mean you should pursue her! I think you are watching to see if she makes any attempt to approach you about working on the MR. Just speaking as a former WW, appearing passive would look similar to playing the role of Plan B. You have options. You are in the driver's seat. You get to call the shots. You get to state the requirements she has to meet in order for you to feel safe in a relationship with her. The last thing you need to do is let her back into the MR without doing the work.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Bern19 Offline OP
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Thank you Sandi, I was hoping you'd weigh in.

Originally Posted by sandi2


During the session with the MC, did your WW ever offer an apology or express regret that she had deceived you and betrayed you for 4 years?


Not what I would call a "come to Jesus" type moment. She did apologize, and for the first time it wasn't followed immediately or shortly after by reminding me of the things I had done to push her away. The only time she's cried or been broken up about it in front of me is when I asked her how many lies does she think she can tell me before I begin to hate her? I told her that if our marriage doesn't survive this, we will still be in each others lives because of the kids until one of us dies. I told her I don't want to spend the rest of my life hating her, and that she needed to be honest with me about her intentions. She broke down and managed to say that she didn't want me to hate her...

Quote

She's just mad at OM. If he contacted her today and convinced her that he was forced to say/do those things but that his heart still belongs to her, yada, yada..........it would be hard for her not to buy into it, b/c she will be going into the very beginning of withdrawals of the affair addiction, and she needs a fix. Her bruised ego may carry her through a few days, but she will crave to have some type of contact, if it's nothing but seeing him like something on social media.


I started to try and explain this exact concept to her, but caught myself and stopped. She has admitted to the addictive nature of the relationship. Says she didn't see it that way until more recently when she was trying to steer clear of him, but still enjoyed the fact that he was pursuing her. Until I'm certain that she has started to break out of her wayward mindset, where everything I tell her is received like a spoiled teenager that is rebelling against her father. I need to let her do some of the heavy lifting to get started. So, I'm letting her do some of her own reading and trying not to get initiate any relationship conversations.


Quote
That's true, and that's why you need to require that she agrees to being transparent. The WW has to be held accountable throughout the period they are going through "withdrawals" from the affair/OM. She's been at this for 4 years, so I doubt it is going to be a breeze for her.

As the WW, she doesn't get to pick & choose about how much she will reveal. She doesn't get to claim he is invading her privacy. Only the wayward spouse has to be accountable for their whereabouts and activity. The faithful spouse shouldn't volunteer or agree to join the transparency club. This is not about the faithful spouse's atonement, it's about the wayward spouse who is not trustworthy. So, it's up to the H to decide what type of transparency he needs from his WW. She has to surrender all passwords, delete old texts from OM, block him, etc. It's the H's decision when he will take a look at her phone activity. BTW, she should not know when he looks at her phone, for reasons I can explain later, if necessary. He should not announce when he's going to look, nor have a scheduled time, nor even check every day.


We haven't had that discussion yet as I'm still waiting to see if she can manage "no contact" for a few days at least. I'm not confident that she can as she has proven she couldn't before. Only difference now is she no longer sees him everyday at work since he quit. I know that he will go to a neighboring district and get hired to the same job and there is a chance that they'll end up at the same location for an event for their respective schools. I know that is probably not likely in the next couple months, but next school year it could be a reality. Until then he is unemployed and has plenty of time to contact my ww.

As for the things I need from her, this is what I have currently:
1. Absolutely no contact. If she runs into him or he tries to contact her, she calls me immediately to let me know.
2. Transparency- Delete all texts, emails, pics, etc. Given all passwords for access to all social media and email accounts and possibly downloading a gps tracking app to her phone.
3. Gifts- any and all gifts/presents/etc need to be disposed of. I don't want her being triggered to think about him as she drinks coffee from the mug he bought her.
That's all I have settled on so far... any other suggestions here?



Quote
As for your decision about letting her remain the MBR, I'll add these thoughts. If you have not decided if you want to stay married or get a D, then I suppose you could sleep apart for a few nights. However, under no circumstances should you agree or even call it an in-house separation. Those are killers! It is ultimate cake-eating for a WW. Besides, if you think you will want to work on the MR, then she doesn't need to spending the night behind closed doors from you. While going through withdrawals, she'll be very vulnerable to temptation to contact OM. I know some may say that you can't watch her 24/7....and that is very true. If the WW is authentic about wanting to save her M, then transparency will help her to stay on the straight & narrow road. Sure, she can find a way around it if she wants to break the NC agreement, but if she wants free of those conflicting feelings toward OM, then she will need to get through the withdrawals. If her feelings were beginning to change toward OM before she saw his true colors, then hopefully, she can get through the process faster.....IDK.


Again, I caution you about just sitting back and watching her, b/c you do NOT want to appear passive. I don't mean you should pursue her! I think you are watching to see if she makes any attempt to approach you about working on the MR. Just speaking as a former WW, appearing passive would look similar to playing the role of Plan B. You have options. You are in the driver's seat. You get to call the shots. You get to state the requirements she has to meet in order for you to feel safe in a relationship with her. The last thing you need to do is let her back into the MR without doing the work.



When this all started, divorce wasn't an option. I didn't believe in divorce. After finding out that she lied about the timeline of the affair, then was lying to me about no contact, then finding out that there had been talks with the OM about selling his house so they could be together, all slowly started to erode my long held belief that divorce was wrong. I started to see that divorce is a way out of an abusive and destructive relationship. When the other spouse claims they want to work on the marriage, but in secret continue their secretive behavior the BS is left in a desperate position. I think that is when I started to realize that I was worth more. That I deserved to be happy. I still struggled with the effects of divorce on my kids, but realized she wasn't being a good wife or mom. She was so distracted by the OM, that she made all of us a secondary priority. My kids deserve better than that too. It was crazy how fast her attitude changed once she noticed me pulling away. I think her confusion over my obvious detachment, coupled with the discovery of this pic that she sent him (post discovery), him exposing to her boss and then quitting, all combined to finally get her attention. I have seen a different side to my ww the past couple days, but am still being very careful to make sure I don't make her return to the MR too easy. She claims she's willing to do the work, but we have yet to talk about what I need from her. Let's see what her attitude is once I explain the things I need from her to continue.


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Originally Posted by Bern19
When this all started, divorce wasn't an option. I didn't believe in divorce.


B is this a religious belief that you have?

I suggest you read Joe2017's thread.. He tried to reconcile with a WW who came back after her AP turned out to be a scumbag.

She's coming back for the wrong reasons and that my friend will eventually catch up with you in my opinion.

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How are things going, Bern?


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Quick Update- on the vaca with the family. Had a bit of a setback with the wife when I was holding her phone for navigation purposes and she got a text from someone I didn’t recognize. I let it get to me as I started to wonder if she’s back in contact with the OM. Turns out she sold something on eBay and the message was from them. She got a bit testy, rolled her eyes and said “ that’s a great way to start a vacation “. So then I’m upset because it appears she still has no clue what it’s like to wonder if Your being lied to, again. To wonder if their treachery continues... once we get home, we’ll need to have that conversation about boundaries, transparency and how to better handle the lack of trust I have in her.

But right now, I’m focused on having fun with the kids.


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Wow, how crazy of you to think it might be a text from the OM. It's almost as if your W dropped a bomb on you and has been seeing another man for years. I mean, if that had happened, I'd imagine there'd be some raw emotions and zero trust.

Do you ever try being honest with her? She's trying to keep you in line with that "great way to start a vacation" line.


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It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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She got a bit testy, rolled her eyes and said “ that’s a great way to start a vacation “.


Oh the arrogance of a WW! Being on a family vacation when your WW is like being in a torture chamber, I would think. Those car rides with the kids hearing everything said, places you in a vulnerable position. I suggest you just try to avoid as much as possible when the kids are in hearing distance. Once you get back home, then you need to start calling her out on this type of display. Rolling her eyes at you is like gaslighting. It's her way of saying you were over reacting or it's all in your head. The W rolling her eyes is also an act of disrespect. It becomes a bad habit for some women, but it started out as a slight overt show of disrespect. Blaming you for how the way the vacation starts is deflecting the truth behind your reasons for thinking that call could have been from her AP.

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But right now, I’m focused on having fun with the kids.


Right, make it all about them!


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Bern19 Offline OP
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Yeah, I considered not saying anything about the text, but figured that’s what I would have always done, so I figured instead of pretending it didn’t bother me I’d just say something. When she got upset with me that bothered me more than the text. Once again proving she has not considered what she’s done as “that bad”. I don’t know if she’ll ever grasp that. At least she doesn’t appear to be close. I’m to the point now that I keep remembering things she said or placed we were only to realize that she was with the OM during all of them. It’s starting to affect my mindset of trying to avoid a divorce at all costs. I’m starting to feel cheated out of the life I was supposed to have by this person that I trusted my future to. At this point I’m avoiding all relationship talk and just engaged with my kids as much as possible. I’ll get into it with her once we get home.


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Married 21 years

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She's like my W in that they don't want to deal with the facts. Your W knows it's wrong, she is just so emotionally charged that she can't even think about it right now. I've tried dragging it out of my W, I'd recommend you don't. But if it comes, if she acts like you're being over the top about it, just gently remind her of the facts of the situation. The facts alone will make her cry and boohoo poor her, but don't add any extra IMO.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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