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Re: Grey Havens [Re: Zues126] #2842385
03/18/19 04:28 PM
03/18/19 04:28 PM
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Zues126 Offline OP
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Zues126  Offline OP
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Btrow, thanks for the reply. I don't think I would've played it any differently if I had more mixed emotions. Emotions are one thing, facts are another. The facts of the situation haven't changed. Emotions don't make a great compass.

As for how I've interacted, I found a post of mine from a few years ago that sums it up pretty well. I think my full post and the replies on this page (page 2 of 10 on this thread) are relevant:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2616817&page=2

I can tell you that I have stuck to that outlook religiously. It's been over 4 years now since I've truly interacted with her. These contacts back and forth regarding the children are extremely short, business like, and emotionless. Hers have varied widely from hostile, to threatening, to mournful, to raging, to snipy, etc, etc. But she can't start a fight if I don't fight back. Not only has my approach avoided anything escalating (which is a great gift for the children, that I am not at war with their mother), but it has made moving on so easy because I feel like I haven't actually talked to her in over 4 years. As far as I'm concerned she was murdered by my XW in 2014. I mourned her the way I would if she was dead. And I keep as emotionally distant from XW as possible.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Re: Grey Havens [Re: Zues126] #2842604
03/19/19 08:47 PM
03/19/19 08:47 PM
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JujuB Offline
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Oh wow... that link was from after your divorce and a few months after my BD. My replies are on there. We are like old friends now lol.

Regarding discontinuing friendships with friends that cheat. I get it. It would be better if cheaters did receive consequences from society. It would be less acceptable. My ex is a follower of his peers and his friends were divorcing and then he did. Imagine if friends discontinued friendships. Would that change things?

I have a friend from high school that cheated and gaslighted and divorced and is a horrible person to be married to. I think heís possibly sociopathic. But I would still hang out with him. He knows I donít approve. We debate each otherís perspectives in a very unemotional way. He knows my situation and actually helped me a bit when I was going through the worst. Gave me the cheaters perspective but also helped me in other ways. I look at him as someone thatís fun to talk to and hang out with but like I said, I certainly would not set him up with anyone I knew. I have another friend thats married and flirts a lot and does stuff I personally do not approve of. But I still hang out with her cause sheís fun.

I am also very strong in my morals and I know myself and never follow my friends. Iím kind of viewed as the reserved one in my group. For me, itís hard to discard people maybe? Or I think I just stay a bit detached from friends where a I donít take their actions personally, like I would someone I am dating. I donít feel like they bring me down. I do keep them at arms length though and they are there more to socialize with so maybe a different definition of friendship.

Now hereís a question that kind of came up on Dawns thread... would you continue to eat at a restaurant like chick filet if you loved their food yet disagreed with their politics? I personally canít relate cause I hate that type of food - but what about listening to a Michael Jackson song? Or watching a woody Allen movie? Child pedophila is even worse then cheating yet do you turn Thriller off the radio? Thatís a harder one for me because the thought of children being hurt
Makes me very emotional but I grew up on Michael Jackson songs.
What about politics? Regardless of the party, Most politicians do cheat, yet they are running our government. how do we vote?


M: 42
H: 43
Twins age 5
WAH in summer
Re: Grey Havens [Re: Zues126] #2842759
03/20/19 06:25 PM
03/20/19 06:25 PM
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Zues126 Offline OP
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Zues126  Offline OP
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Hey Juju, yeah, it's cool that we've known each other for four years now!

Interesting questions. I really don't know where I stand. I can see some pros and cons of social boycotts.

On the pro side, social pressure can force a layer of humanity onto corporations which can be by nature sociopathic and profit driven. We can make it financially beneficial for them to behave more civilized. I suppose you could say its a social regulatory system. Having working in large corporations for 20 years now I am a big believer that some degree of regulation is a good thing. Social regulation is quite appealing in some ways compared to government regulation.

Social regulation is quicker. It is the direct will of the people. There is no gridlock. There are no lobbyists. We see something horrible and we can make a direct immediate impact. And the threat of that forces companies to behave in ways that can bear our scrutiny and the consequences that could follow.

One example of this is Glassdoor, a website that allows employees to review employers on how it is to work for a company. This feedback impacts the company's reputation and the ease with which they can hire in the future. It creates a social incentive for them to want to develop a good rating. Customer reviews of services are another great example.

On the other hand, social regulation lacks the checks and balances that we count on to protect our freedoms. Innocent until proven guilty is a concept that can easily be lost in a lynching of social outrage. I've seen many examples of individuals who's careers were shattered and who's reputations were ruined due to allegations that were never substantiated to any extent that would satisfy a legal system's demands. This is quite scary to me. In addition, it seems that the most extreme and vocal people start to dictate the terms of our society. Outrage culture can censor free speech as people with opinions that vary from the mainstream can be persecuted at the drop of the hat.

One example pf these things is the backlash against Matt Damon for his comments on the "Me Too" movement. He said that while any form of sexual misconduct is inappropriate and should be addressed, there was a spectrum as to the seriousness of the transgressions, and that while they should all be confronted, they shouldn't be treated as the same. In other words, if someone made a lewd inappropriate comment that shouldn't necessarily result in the same lynching as someone that abused a position of power to pressure numerous vulnerable women into unwanted sexual acts. This seems a reasonable and important point he made, yet the reaction he received was frightening. He was called "Systematically part of the problem" and received tons of scathing comments in the news stories that followed. One person used the word "Orwellian" when to me it seems that term would be better applied to a society in which we are afraid of the extremists with their social media followers and journalists looking for stories and scandals.

To me the question becomes who is going to regulate the regulators? The same benefits of social regulation, swift and impactful judgment and consequences, become horrifying when the protections of due process and free speech are removed.

In the end this is the a change in our culture that isn't going away. I just hope there are good answers to this last question that help preserve the liberties we've come to depend on. Just like corporations are a net positive as long as they are regulated to some extent, I think social regulation will be mostly positive if we can keep it in check to some extent.

I'm still torn as to how much I'll participate because I'm not clear on the consequences. But I don't feel the same degree of responsibility as I do when I have someone in my personal sphere doing something detestable as I don't have the same degree of influence.

As for politicians, I am mostly voting on people I believe will do the best job of making our world a better place to live. I vote knowing they are all flawed humans in an imperfect system. That goes without saying. I suppose I'd exclude a candidate that was convicted of pedophilia, but unsubstantiated allegations from decades ago wouldn't be a deciding factor. I guess that's me voting for due process as well.

I'm certainly open on this subject and I'm sure my views will evolve with time and new information. Interesting times we live in to be sure!


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Re: Grey Havens [Re: Zues126] #2842766
03/20/19 07:03 PM
03/20/19 07:03 PM
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Those are great answers and I am in agreement. Most issues do not have clear cut black and white answers to them.

I brought those questions up because i do notice a level of hypocrisy in myself. I hate my ex, I get so angry at the people here that cheated and lied and manipulated the LBS. Yet, I know people and continue to engage with people that make some pretty crappy moral choices. Itís not because I worry I will be influenced by them (I know I wonít). Itís because they are fun to hang out with once in a while. I never get close to them though.

When it comes to having a partner, I would prefer a partner that chooses the right thing because thatís who they are. Not a choice they are making based on whatís ok socially. Like I would want my husband to not cheat because he cares about me and my safety and my feelings and because he gave me his word. Not because he worries that his friends or family will find out and shun him.

I donít socially boycott either. I understand the collective power that comes from it. And i love that it can have an effect, but i guess I am hypocritical in that sense as well. Pendulums swing and social regulation can one day take on a cause that might be opposite to my own beliefs.

Just some things that I am thinking about.


M: 42
H: 43
Twins age 5
WAH in summer
Re: Grey Havens [Re: Zues126] #2842784
03/20/19 08:35 PM
03/20/19 08:35 PM
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Zues126 Offline OP
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Thanks for the reply J.

You're right. It would be nice if people did the right thing because they felt it was the right thing to do. Just like it would be nice to not have police or jails. But zooming out, people in our society likely are more likely to behave morally if there are consequences. More people are going to do what's right if we demand it of each other.

That's on the big level. Even on the individual level it holds true. I don't really believe there are 'good people' and 'bad people'. I do think some people can do horrible things, and some things are worse than others. But I don't think it's black and white. One things I've mentioned that is off-putting to me is the nearly unanimous narrative that we posters are all enlightened LBS good people and all of our WAS's are diagnosable narcissistic bad people with FOO issues. Oh, each of us individually can build that case. But when comparing the probability that all of the good people just happened to find this site after they were left by all of those bad people, well, Occam's razor just suggests it's more likely that ALL people feel like we're generally good and those who've wronged us are monsters.

I'm not denying the horrible things our XS's have done. I read your reply to Don about your husband's lateness for example and it was pretty bad. But I also know that if you highlighted my top 5 worst husband moments it would have been pretty bad. I know my XW judges me and labels me by my top 5 worst moments. That is why she is my ex. If she was the type to judge me by my top 5 it would've been a totally different story and we'd probably be happily married.

The reason I bring this up again is that I don't personally believe in unicorns, i.e. a 'good person' out there that will be a great partner that is uninfluenced by our society and who's morality transcends our humanity. I think that we are dealing with a population pool consisting entirely of flawed humans who are influenced to a larger degree than they believe by the culture and societal norms that surround them. For example, a few years ago ghosting someone would've been considered a bad thing, but now enough people do it that 'well, who hasn't ghosted someone?' You could even say your outlook on not distancing yourself from people based on their destructive choices is a fairly new societal norm as we try to evolve past a 'shame culture' and ensure we 'free people' from oppressive social stereotypes.

I don't really have a point. We don't dictate how the world works around us. But by trying to understand it maybe we can operate in it more effectively with less disappointment. It's possible I'm too cynical and could use a dose of hopium. But I've never been happier and am having a joyous time in life and with my family and passions, so I'm not letting it bog me down too much. smile


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Re: Grey Havens [Re: Zues126] #2842798
03/20/19 10:15 PM
03/20/19 10:15 PM
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That list wasnít my top 5. That gets bad. Last boyfriend was negative and critical. My ex husband accused me of being negative and critical. That list Helped me to see if I was unfairly critical and negative regarding his lateness and money issues.

It is different from your ex wifeís list because my list was not being used to justify leaving a marriage or cheating on a spouse. He was using my complaints or my holding him accountable for the things on that list as a reason to leave the marriage. So he was mad at me for being mad at him and used it to justify not only leaving us, but his financial decisions that devastated us.

Not all LBS are good. And yes, we all have our flaws. I was certainly not perfect in my marriage or in my last relationship. And my flaws seem to change. I now have communication issues and Iím not sure I can love someone. Thatís a big flaw for someone that wants to date me.

I know people all have flaws. I know people can pull that abuse card to justify a failed relationship when really, they wanted to bail out of a relationship that was not unicorns and rainbows because unicorns and rainbows donít exist.

I think when are flaws are pointed out to us, all we can do is acknowledge them and work to change them. I made an effort to change my negativity and criticism - especially when it came to my son. I donít know your entire list, but Based on your writings for the past few years, it seems like you addressed some of the top 5 valid issues on your wifeís list as well.

People arenít good or bad - I put guys that cheated or guys that live far away from their kids in the bad category - or at least bad for me. Those are black and whites for me. I feel like all I really have to go on with a guy is how they handled the kid aspect. I went for my ex bf because he raised his child by himself. He had flaws that I just could not deal with. But to me, the fact that he did what was best for his kid put him in the ďgood ď category. The category that meant he was more trustworthy then others.

Our stories will all be from our perspectives. So we canít count on that. But a dad or mom that did not do right by their kids is easy to spot.


M: 42
H: 43
Twins age 5
WAH in summer
Re: Grey Havens [Re: Zues126] #2843046
03/22/19 04:46 PM
03/22/19 04:46 PM
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Zues126 Offline OP
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Zues126  Offline OP
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A couple of years ago I watched a video series from a guy that was really profound to me. I think it's safe to say that if you added up all of the posts I've written and reviewed, all the books I've read, all of the blog posts, all of the podcasts, and you totalled up the whole thing- I think this gentleman's videos are the single most powerful thing I've seen and worth almost as much as all the rest put together.

He has an updated version out that was so good I watched them all back to back, then rewatched the original series just to contrast the way he presented the material.

If you search it on youtube you'll find it here: andy stanley what happy couples know I'd recommend you all check it out.

I would like to discuss some of his ideas as they apply to relationships and partners, so let me know if you give it a watch and what you think.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Re: Grey Havens [Re: Zues126] #2843047
03/22/19 04:47 PM
03/22/19 04:47 PM
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Zues126 Offline OP
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If you search it on youtube you'll find it here: andy stanley what happy couples know

(Can't edit and that came out choppy)


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Re: Grey Havens [Re: Zues126] #2843098
03/22/19 10:56 PM
03/22/19 10:56 PM
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JujuB Offline
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I did not watch the whole thing yet.

1. But it sounds like he is saying that for a couple to be happy, there cannot be expectations. Thatís what many religions say the key to happiness is right? Eliminating want and desire and ownership?Heís kind of transferring that on to a relationship.

2. It also sounds like heís saying that a happy relationship requires unconditional love? Right? Thats something that would only work if both partners are capable of it. If one person is and the other one has a personality disorder it becomes unhealthy and abusive. Call me a cynic, but based on my experience here I donít think That adult love can be unconditional. You have to have the expectation that ďmy husbands not gonna go out and f random women and expose me to hiv and stdsĒ or that ďmy wife is not going to steal family funds for drugs while I work and saveĒ ( and based on the stories we read here these actions are not far fetched and out there. ) Those are fair expectations and everyone should be able to expect that their spouse will not abuse them.

Now I havenít watched part 2. So maybe this is explained further down the line. But thatís my initial thought.

Now regarding gratitude over things that are not in the extreme - like not expecting lunch to made for you certainly makes sense.


M: 42
H: 43
Twins age 5
WAH in summer
Re: Grey Havens [Re: JujuB] #2843105
03/22/19 11:57 PM
03/22/19 11:57 PM
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Zues126 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JujuB
I did not watch the whole thing yet.

1. But it sounds like he is saying that for a couple to be happy, there cannot be expectations. Thatís what many religions say the key to happiness is right? Eliminating want and desire and ownership?Heís kind of transferring that on to a relationship.

2. It also sounds like heís saying that a happy relationship requires unconditional love? Right? Thats something that would only work if both partners are capable of it. If one person is and the other one has a personality disorder it becomes unhealthy and abusive. Call me a cynic, but based on my experience here I donít think That adult love can be unconditional. You have to have the expectation that ďmy husbands not gonna go out and f random women and expose me to hiv and stdsĒ or that ďmy wife is not going to steal family funds for drugs while I work and saveĒ ( and based on the stories we read here these actions are not far fetched and out there. ) Those are fair expectations and everyone should be able to expect that their spouse will not abuse them.

Now I havenít watched part 2. So maybe this is explained further down the line. But thatís my initial thought.

Now regarding gratitude over things that are not in the extreme - like not expecting lunch to made for you certainly makes sense.


Thanks for checking it out J! I agree that the first part is in large part talking about the danger of marital expectations. He said it posed a problem and I agree. His recommendation is still coming. And he makes some other points along the way that are very interesting. Let me know if you are able to make it through all of them. I'd enjoy talking further about this.


Me:38 XW:38
T:11 years M:8 years
Kids: S14, D11, D7
BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
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