Saturday Siesta

[AndrewP]

AP, just dropping by to say hellooo!

Glad the chicken milk is back out this year, sounds delicious!! :0)

Gosh you sound like your are surounded by single ladies wherever you go! Lots of opportunities to make a first impression!

How did you feel about hearing from your ex? i actually would dread hearing from my H if he ever did contact me. Just the thought if it makes me sick to my stomach when only a few months ago I would have welcomed it and used it as an open door to communicate some more. How things have changed!

You sound like you are doing great AP!

Happy Saturday!!

COLY!!! (squeals like a teenaged girl despite being a large man with a big beard)

I hope that you and your daughter are doing well. Have you both been good girls? Or is that just what you've told St. Nick

It was surreal hearing from my ex - even just the "Merry Christmas to you too". I just put a nice roast of beef in the slow cooker for Sunday supper and for some reason got thinking that I needed to plan on 3 place settings. There is no way that's going to happen though. Mind you, even with picking one of the smallest roasts at the shop it's still enough to feed a crowd so if you and your D are in the neighbourhood, feel free to stop by I've added a second onion to chop up later to try my very first beef gravy.

I don't think that she'll be reaching out to me though and I'll touch on it in a bit on why I won't be either.

Not sure how much you read back, but I do get a lot of nostalgia lately and a feeling on how this is all so surreal even though it's been 2 1/2 years now. I'm sure you have similar issues too.

I do think that there are far more single mature people out there than you might imagine. I never really noticed before but then it didn't matter. I'm perhaps still not fully ready to dive in to something new myself but you never know who is going to bump in to your shopping cart.

A Very Happy Christmas to you and your D Colly and the biggest of Canadian bear hugs ((((Coly23))))

---------------
DnJ - thank you so much for the visit and the thoughtful comments. There's a lot to chew on here.

The fact you know you could find forgiveness is excellent. That is a change of mindset that maybe you didn’t notice happen.

In the very last letter I wrote to her, the one where I told her I'd given up and that the separation / divorce process needed to be started, the very last line I put in was that she perhaps underestimated my capacity for forgiveness.

Could I actually? At what price? Would it be one she would be willing to pay? That last bit is key. I really wouldn't ask for much. Just truth really. She is I expect living with a narrative of her own construction. It's something that she would do even when we were married. I recall her pouring grease down the kitchen sink and denying it while in the act of doing it. I accepted the lies she would tell all the time even when I didn't believe them.

Her narrative as I've heard it from others was that she was unhappy in a vague way that she never explains. That she only started dating OM well after she had moved out. A large number of people know the truth of things though which is probably keeping her isolated to those who either believe her tale or the undoubtedly larger number of people who don't care. I do believe that she has a terror of being judged which is one of the reasons why she stays in her tunnel.

Unlike yourself, while I have come to be more or less at peace with what has happened, forgiveness is a two part process requiring both sides to participate. I still have a lot of anger that I can find if I root around, just like I can also find the fondness. All of it is fading and in some cases getting a patina of age.

Yes, sometimes you do use poor analogies or metaphors. Perhaps this time is one of those. You meant more of a well worn slipper - maybe.

A bit from column A and a bit from column B. The intention was to explore how sometimes the perhaps poor choices made in the past are the comfortable choices to make.

I am thinking that S24 doesn’t feel comfortable getting in between you and XW. Visits with his Mom are probably hard enough without bringing reminders of what she has done. She most likely hasn’t progressed as much as you may think or she may act.

As to the blank look and shrug, his is a young man, still figuring out how to behave. He might not feel comfortable speaking back to you. The trivial things are a communication from him. Talk to the lad and see what is up.

Instead of involving S24 just text or call XW and tell her you have these items for her. Would she like them dropped off, mailed, or would she like to pick them up. Whatever the arrangements just you and her, leave S24 out of it. Do not let her talk you into leaving them in the front porch, if she tries that just mail the stuff.

Just an idea, something I’ve observed with my brood. If W and I have something we need to discuss I will not be using the kids, I will contact her directly. If one of the kids offers to take something to her, well that is different. I mean a Christmas card or such, of course I think I would just mail her’s out with all the rest (if I send her one, haven’t decided yet).

DnJ

Thanks DnJ - As I'm sure you understand I would find it amazingly difficult to deal with my ex face to face. S24 I think has "normalized" his relationship with his mother and personally I think that he is ambivalent about the choices she's made. I think he's aware that I struggle still and shields me from his interactions with her.

As far as talking to him about it, that's probably a non-starter. His mother had the frustrating habit of any time any sort of difficult conversation was broached by me would loudly and deliberately change the topic. Whenever I've tried to talk to him about for example, getting another job, or his own place, or even just a few days ago about whether he wanted to take over responsibility for paying his insurance bill, he listens politely and then completely ignores the fact that the conversation took place. I expect that this ornament will sit on the kitchen counter for a week or so and then I'll put it in his room

Fortunately I had nearly 3 decades of that from his mother and don't let it bother me. Facing things and dealing with them isn't something that either of them have ever really done which is pretty much the opposite of how I believe I deal with things.

I personally think that it was a mistake to crack open the window of the lighthouse as much as I have done. It's like poking at a bruise. You know it's going to hurt but you do it anyway and then regret it.

I know you have stated you do not believe in MLC. You have stated that your XW does follow the script pretty well, even got a tattoo or a few (so far I have no knowledge of tattoos with my W). It doesn’t really matter (well of course it does or I wouldn’t be trying to soft sell this) - Consider this:

She does follow the script, she exhibited and exhibits running behaviours, confusion, depression, extreme changes of personality, poor choices, even poorer choices of friends, and so on. You do not need to believe in MLC for it to exist. From my point of view your XW is an MLCer. Maybe your definition is different than mine. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck... you know.

That's where as you have pointed out previously and what I struggle with the whole MLC concept. There's a thing I used to write about here a lot - confirmation bias. Where you see things that support a hypothesis and don't see those that don't. Part of me wishes that 2 years ago when I did believe in the possibility of her coming back, that there was a clear and professional diagnosis and plan to get there.

I've done a lot of reading here and elsewhere about infidelity and the narratives that the cheating spouse uses and she also fits in to those patterns both in her behaviour during her affair and prior to it. I'm certainly not a professional though. I know that a number of very smart people here back when I was on my bicycle threads also agreed that she was very likely going through a MLC. Was she pushed over the edge by a combination of menopause, empty nest and the intense attentions of an available partner? Does she regret those choices? Does she even admit to herself that they were poor choices? None of us will likely ever know.

According to the "script" she's probably right in the middle of withdrawal. Her replay antics were pretty mild other than the infidelity and even that was nowhere near the "girls gone wild" that others have done. OM was a respected older small business man and she's persistently kept chasing after him as far as I know not branching out to other options. I suspect that the money she got in the settlement has been invested perhaps in her pension. The muscle cars and fancy vacations that she coveted so much and would undoubtedly have gotten if she had stayed are nowhere in sight.

I do have an expectation that she'll pop up and make some noise if I do start dating (CL doesn't really count) especially since her dreams have not come true to date and are very likely never going to. Like you, I struggle with that although I think in your case your STBX more actively tossed out her old life. Mine kept a tight grip holding on with virtual finger-nails to the very end and perhaps beyond.

It is something to touch on there perhaps. Even though I am divorced and did go on a date while separated and certainly actively considered it, there are still feelings inside me of being married to her. But like the old slippers which you alluded to and which I am wearing, the soles are worn inside and out, the heels are weak but I keep wearing them. They're comfortable.

I'm pretty sure that I continue to be under more or less active surveillance. Easy enough to do with me being noisy on social media, her son undoubtedly still passing on information and living in a small village where she has to come to work at the shop across the street (presumably) on a regular basis. She's done her best to keep connected with my relatives as well. I used to wonder why she never changed her last name after the divorce and remember even after she had moved out describing herself to someone as my wife.

You and I and most of us here regularly pull out our entrails to examine them and to plan our paths. I don't think she has at all. And she probably never will.

Thanks again DnJ for the visit and for making me think. I appreciate it.

[exquisitetobe]

On the subject of our ex' s and their slippers:
I believe ALL of us, lbs and was, face those feelings.
Regardless of the reason for the split, we ALL felt comfort with one another over the years. Don' t you think they do not feel nostalgic for us too? It is not an" all day every day" feeling, it comes and goes.
They are also grieving a relationship; the relationship we shared with them.

It is not all beauty and fun. It can' t be. Life is not like that for anyone.

Moving on... Andrew, if you are like me, i do not think a lack of courage is what you lack. Imo, you do not want to date for the wrong reason. Out of loneliness or lack of intimatie. It would make you feel like you are wronging the other party.
You do not want to hurt or use anyone. You want to make sure it is truely for love, care, respect and partnership. Am i right?
The old fashion lady in me is not having much luck on her search.. but she is staying true to herself and therefor is at peace in her heart .

[AndrewP]

On the subject of our ex' s and their slippers:
I believe ALL of us, lbs and was, face those feelings.
Regardless of the reason for the split, we ALL felt comfort with one another over the years. Don' t you think they do not feel nostalgic for us too? It is not an" all day every day" feeling, it comes and goes.
They are also grieving a relationship; the relationship we shared with them.

It is not all beauty and fun. It can' t be. Life is not like that for anyone.

Moving on... Andrew, if you are like me, i do not think a lack of courage is what you lack. Imo, you do not want to date for the wrong reason. Out of loneliness or lack of intimatie. It would make you feel like you are wronging the other party.
You do not want to hurt or use anyone. You want to make sure it is truely for love, care, respect and partnership. Am i right?
The old fashion lady in me is not having much luck on her search.. but she is staying true to herself and therefor is at peace in her heart .

Thanks exquisite. I quite like how you explained the idea of old slippers. I am pretty sure that I cross my ex's mind from time to time and I do know that she also felt that we had a comfortable life here too. I was thinking while on my regular walk today on how for many years I had always believed that if something happened to her that I would probably just stay single. Usually paired with a joke about not wanting to start training someone new.

You are certainly right in that I wouldn't want to date for selfish reasons. Despite my enjoyment of the character and possible other similar features especially after burritos, I am no Pepe Le Pew. I am unlikely to go up to a random woman and murmer "Where are you my little gumbo of chicken? Your french fried shrimp is sizzling for you"

I do think that courage is indeed lacking in part though. Fear of rejection and success are both a thing. Fear of making a mistake.

I think old fashioned types like us do have some extra challenges. One complicating factor for both of us is that our children are still a big part of our daily lives. More so for you than me of course. CL and I refer to my son as "PolkaRoo" for the obvious reason that while there is proof of his existence, actual sightings are rare. We both know that if we moved a few steps down the evolutionary scale and accepted poor behaviour that we could be partnered before New Years.

I just got out of the tub a few minutes ago thinking how so very fortunate I am that today's biggest issue is that I am almost out of both bubble bath and wine I have a nice roast of beef cooking up nicely and my friend at the cafe gave me some pointers on making up my first beef gravy. Since I managed the probably harder duck gravy I'm pretty confident.

[AndrewP]

Well - I have a lot to say recently.

Just venting right now. Over Sunday supper where my first ever beef and mushroom gravy was pronounced tasty, S24 told me that he was spending Christmas Eve and Day with his mother. He said that since he's spent the past two Christmases with me that "it was only fair" - words I'm sure came directly from his mother.

Blargh. I told him that as an adult he has full choice over how he spends his time but I'm sure he noticed that I was bothered. I expect my reaction was communicated back to his mother promptly. He seemed pleased by my acquiescence but really I had no choice. It does bother me and I'm sure it was apparent. Being as he is like his mother and is quite materialistic, he made a point of asking me what I wanted for Christmas (some Beethoven and perhaps an apron)

I need to decide now if I will do up Boxing day as our Christmas after talking to D26. I'm tempted to split it but don't want S24 to "miss out". Re-thinking this, I really have little choice at least as far as Christmas dinner goes. Making it for me and serving him leftovers would lack class.

At least my ex has finally remembered that she has children.

I know that I shouldn't be upset because he is 100% right about the "fair" comment but I still am. At least he gave me a couple of weeks notice. I suspect that this was communicated to him just today. Oddly he also was looking for the gift wrap box today too.

It's "unfair" of me to think of this but given that I pay all his bills, feed him, house him, encourage him, listen to him complain about his job, that his mother still feels that she has a claim on him.

I also know that I am in this with very likely millions of other single parents of children of all ages who deal with exactly this same thing.

This will be the first time ever that I will wake up Christmas morning with no family around me. Depending on what D26 has to suggest - I'm going to wait a day or so to talk to her - I may see if there's some volunteering I can do on Christmas morning. I know that there are some dinners put on for people who are otherwise alone but I would rather help than be helped.

The one thing that I can be pleased with is that S24 knows that I am sad he won't be here but that I'm respecting what is truly in my mind his choice, but more likely is his mother's request.

[exquisitetobe]

I know how you feel..

This is a reaction of ours. Let me ask you something.
If your son was dating and he ammounced that he was gonna spend Christmas with his in-laws, would you feel anger or just disappointment?

Regardless, it s*cks!!
Our Christmas will be delayed to. Not because of ex, because me and son-in-law are working on the 24th and 26th.
With their 8 hours drive, we decided to celebrate around the New year.
Maybe me, you and all others on here who will be alone this Christmas could meet-up here and have an egg nog cheer?

[kml]

Ah, Christmas can be hard.
My ex and I agreed on a split Christmas - one of us has them for Christmas Eve, then they go spend the night at the other parents house and have Christmas morning with them ( yes, they're all young adults in their mid twenties to early thirties but all single).
This has worked well on an alternating schedule.

Still, it has meant a couple of Christmas days spent alone. Things will inevitably be different after divorce.

One year, my mom was out of state at my sister's and I only had my kids for Christmas Eve. I had just started dating my Love Avoidant friend and since he's estranged from his remaining family and has no kids, he invited me up for a sleepover. Best casual second date ever. The following night I went to a party in LA (he couldn't join me because of super early work hours). This party is thrown by a lifelong bachelor on Christmas night and he calls it The Losers Christmas. All adults without kids or whose kids aren't around that day. Tons of interesting people.

If your kids are going to be at their Mom's then plan a different day for your Xmas with them. Then see where you can get invited for Christmas or start your OWN Losers Christmas.

And don't take it personally - he still needs his mom even though you're his rock.

[AndrewP]

Thanks exquisitetobe and kml

I just needed to vent last night and this is a safe place for it.

I need to check with D26 and her H as to what their plans are. When they were first married they split their Christmases between their two families with phone calls to the other side. After things blew up here and as their other side made some new traditions they've been largely spending Christmas as a couple in their own place. Something I'm highly in favour of.

They do gift me a bit of their time and we've all opened presents together remotely via Skype on Christmas morning.

If S24 were in a relationship I would encourage him to spend Christmas morning with his partner. It's a very special thing.

When I was married we spent Christmas morning together and then every other year went to / hosted Christmas dinner. My own side of the family stopped hosting quite a number of years ago and my parents passed on a long time ago too. My ex did manipulate and lie to me for the last few years to spend Christmas dinner with her parents - long story - not worth getting in to other than the fact that I was upset about being lied to.

What bothers me most I think is the arbitrary and seemingly last minute fashion it was done. Very like my ex.

First day back to work. Commuting to the Toronto office. Blargh - city traffic.

[Ginger1]

The holidays are always hard. I'm sorry and I do understand how you feel about your son. I have had a parenting agreement in place because my daughter is a minor and no one has to feel hurt over choices.

Your S is 24. He sees you every day. Your are his safe spot, like you said, you basically support him as if he was not an adult (something to look at Andrew....) So it hurts when he chooses his mom. But then again, he can't get his mom's attention whenever he wants but holidays are a good time to do so.

I have spent Christmas eve night and Christmas morning alone, without my child. It's rough. This year I chose to work and M might come over for a few hours, but I didn't always have that.

What can you do for A on the holiday? Can you have weekend getaway and save that duck for when your S comes back? Treat yo self!!!!

[cheesyt]

Hi anderw!

catching up on your threads. something that spoke to me from some posts ago "Christmas year 1 I was an absolute mess, in denial and it was all a blur. Last year I was in the midst of finalizing the divorce and had a lot of anger. This year - well - I'm largely over it."

same boat here, can't believe this will be the 3rd xmas. holidays are inevitably difficult. I'm sorry you might end up spending it alone, but perhaps a blessing in disguise?

[AndrewP]

Odd. I think my ex was by the house today. S24 didn't get any hours so was home all day. The ornament I had asked him to pass back to his mother had been sitting by the door and is now gone.

He's not the sort to tidy something like that up when it would be more convenient to just leave it there.

He also seemed extra chipper on his way out tonight for the village poker game and yesterday he did the rare for him viewing of my Snapchat story. Something he only seems to do at around the same time as visiting her.