So up front I want to say a sincere thank you to all who've commented/provided support on my sitch. In a very trying time it's wonderful to feel the support of others who've dealt with all that I'm feeling and going through now.
2nd I'm going to pledge to make this Pt5 last a while by chilling out way more and stop posting/reacting on every freakin thing that gets me spinning. AND I'm going to do that by forcing myself to stop freakin spinning in the first place!
There is much time as many of you have said, right now it just doesn't feel that way. W not talking about us at all and only about moving forward with D is the reason why I feel like that.
Stander I think the big thing to me was that I showed W respect for her no matter what as the wife of my D on her day, but W could not return the same respect to me and she knew for sure what day it was. It hurt and I guess sadly for whatever reason there's a fair chance that was her intent. To intentionally hurt or get angry at me while she's on her way towards getting what she seems to want, I just don't get that.
Also can't agree more with you...Accuray...that guy keeps me straight. Every single time he's right on the money with what he says. H*LL I'm kinda more worried about doing good to make him proud of me than I am about dealing with my W! :-)
First off I agree that having Accuray in your corner is a big time bonus. I have learned more from his postings then from books that I read about relationships.
Second, most likely she probably didn't wish you a happy birthday because she didn't want to give you any false hope.
Right now you can't make things better but you can certainly make them worse especially if you apply pressure.
Jan 2017 my W told me she wanted out that she felt trapped like a caged animal. She filed March 2017 and around April 2017 I accepted I was going get divorced. I completely went they other way and have done nothing to stop it. We are divorced she is still living with me and we have sex from time to time. She has her own house and is in zero hurry to move out. I am going to ask her to leave if she is not out by the end of the month and I am starting to feel like a caged animal lol!
Once you decide that you are done with this BS and you deserve to be with someone who loves and cherishes you everything will change it just takes time.
Be a great dad eat right, exercise, get good sleep, read, learn, GAL and everything will take care of itself.
Stander I think the big thing to me was that I showed W respect for her no matter what as the wife of my D on her day, but W could not return the same respect to me and she knew for sure what day it was. It hurt and I guess sadly for whatever reason there's a fair chance that was her intent. To intentionally hurt or get angry at me while she's on her way towards getting what she seems to want, I just don't get that.
Also can't agree more with you...Accuray...that guy keeps me straight. Every single time he's right on the money with what he says. H*LL I'm kinda more worried about doing good to make him proud of me than I am about dealing with my W! :-)
You praise Accuray... yet you are ALREADY not heeding his advice!! I'm going to modify what he told you in his previous post to fit the above scenario:
Can you identify the story you're telling yourself, and how its different from the facts of what happened in the quote above?
W didn't contact you on father's day -- that's the fact, that's what happened.
You told yourself the story that she chose not to contact you as a show of disrespect.
You went further and labeled her as being angry and intentionally hurting you.
With the benefit of hindsight, does that conclusion seem like a stretch to you?
Is it possible that she just forgot, or that she was afraid that saying something to you might get your hopes up and give you the wrong idea and she was thus trying to spare your feelings?
If that's what happened, it had *nothing* to do with you, your thought process, or being vindictive right?
When you start the "stinking thinking" then try to imagine Acc on your shoulder and say "what would Acc tell me right now?" Sounds funny but it actually works, if you start thinking in terms of "what would a 3rd party think about this" it helps remove you from the emotional reaction.
Thanks for the kind words guys (blush). I can only share that I got excellent help and support when I was in your shoes so I know how meaningful it can be.
Ballast I don't feel like your situation is hopeless, I used "exW" and "exFIL" in talking about my sitch, not yours. Nothing is hopeless until you decide to give up, or completely reject DB and keep pursuing.
Originally Posted By: ballast
I think the big thing to me was that I showed W respect for her no matter what as the wife of my D on her day, but W could not return the same respect to me
^== Covert contract. If you shift your perspective to be that people don't owe you anything, then when they do things for you its a nice surprise or a gift. That's actually a great place to be. If you live that way, you'll naturally be empathetic and find yourself giving people the benefit of the doubt.
Originally Posted By: ballast
and she knew for sure what day it was.
Let's assume you have hard evidence to support that and we'll say that is a fact.
Originally Posted By: ballast
It hurt and I guess sadly for whatever reason there's a fair chance that was her intent.
^== That is not a fact, that is a story you're telling yourself. Your self-narrative is that W wants to hurt you, so you're telling yourself a story to reinforce what you already want to believe.
What hurt and made you sad was not anything that W did or didn't do, it was your covert contract and resulting unspoken expectations. Those things hurt you because they didn't get fulfilled. I promise you that if she sent you a card, called you, and gave you a bunch of balloons there would have been something about how it all went down that you would have interpreted to be vindictive or passive aggressive on her part -- be very careful of your internal narrative and really work to separate "what happened" from "what you told yourself that means". The first is a fact, the second is a fabrication.
Originally Posted By: ballast
To intentionally hurt or get angry at me while she's on her way towards getting what she seems to want, I just don't get that.
^== That's a story you're telling yourself. She didn't actually *do* anything. You're assigning malicious intent to something that happened, but you're the one doing the assignment. If she said "I didn't send you a Father's Day card because I want to punish you and hurt you", then you're entitled to feel this way, but she didn't.
As others have wisely pointed out, the WAS usually sees the LBS as a leaky pent up dam.
Imagine a poorly constructed dam holding back a giant wall of water, straining across the entire structure with water seeping over the top.
If you saw that, you wouldn't want to stand anywhere near it, and you certainly wouldn't poke at it.
The WAS is afraid that showing you kindness, compassion, or intimacy will cause that dam to burst, have you unload a torrent of tears and emotion on them, cling to their leg and refuse to let go.
When they believe that YOUR mental state is tied to THEIR words and actions it reinforces this perception that you're just completely emotionally unstable as far as they are concerned.
Therefore, her lack of a Father's Day acknowledgement was an act of self-preservation. She's trying to keep the dam standing, she doesn't want to be swept away.
It was not intended to hurt you, it was intended to keep you at bay so that you wouldn't see an opportunity for pursuit, because if you start pursuing her, she's going to have to hurt you worse later. Skipping Father's Day was the lesser evil in her mind, compared to winding your hopes up and then dashing them later.
If you look at it from that perspective, she was being compassionate. If she wanted to hurt you, she would have made a big deal about Father's Day, given you a hug and a kiss, gotten you to "lean in" and then pull back and tell you she doesn't want anything to do with you. That's how she could have hurt you, and she didn't do that, she didn't lead you on.
Remember as well when thinking about W that there are really only two base emotions -- joy and fear. Other emotions are expressions of those two basics. Anger is rooted in fear, it's an expression of fear. W isn't angry with you, she's afraid.
Look at her with that perspective and you'll find compassion rather than resentment.
If you are CONFIDENT and SELF-ASSURED the dam is gone. If you have "the attitude" there is no dam, because your emotions are not based on what she does or doesn't do.
When that happens, it is SAFE for her to be nice to you, to be compassionate, and not have to worry about being swept away.
But it has to be 100% believable, which means that you're acting that way even when no one is looking, and then sufficient time has to pass for it to be convincing, that you're not just putting on an act.
You will get there, and once you do, it won't matter what she does or doesn't do, because your self-worth is disconnected from her validation.
And you know what? That's where you *must* be in order to reconcile, because reconciling is not "taking her back" its making her convince you that she's worth starting with again, because YOU are the prize to be won. In that context, she needs to be willing to do the work, and she needs to know that if she doesn't you are GONE.
Until you have "the attitude", she won't believe that, and you can't reconcile.
I often tell people in one of my first posts that "the shortest path back together is a straight line in the opposite direction" and that's what it means. Until she believes that you are (1) good on your own, (2) don't need *anything* from her, and are (3) confident and emotionally healthy, you are NOT safe to return to.
Sometimes you have to make things worse before they can get better.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Right now you can't make things better but you can certainly make them worse especially if you apply pressure.
At least ^^^ I think I'm doing very good at although Acc did point out one slip up.
Originally Posted By: LH19
Once you decide that you are done with this BS and you deserve to be with someone who loves and cherishes you everything will change it just takes time.
This seems closer daily.
Originally Posted By: LH19
Be a great dad eat right, exercise, get good sleep, read, learn, GAL and everything will take care of itself.
This one I'm doing great with although GAL I can always get better. Thinking of a trip by myself if it didn't wonder how much fun that would actually be.
You praise Accuray... yet you are ALREADY not heeding his advice!!
Stander yep after I posted what I did, I KNEW I had that coming!
Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
When you start the "stinking thinking" then try to imagine Acc on your shoulder and say "what would Acc tell me right now?" Sounds funny but it actually works, if you start thinking in terms of "what would a 3rd party think about this" it helps remove you from the emotional reaction.
Yep, I need to stick to the facts only. I only go to stinking thinking when I go further.
Thanks for the kind words guys (blush). I can only share that I got excellent help and support when I was in your shoes so I know how meaningful it can be.
See up front...WOW!!! The thoughtfulness, quality of what you give me Acc...truly I can't repay nor thank you enough! Truly means so much to me to have support from folks like yourself.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
Ballast I don't feel like your situation is hopeless, I used "exW" and "exFIL" in talking about my sitch, not yours. Nothing is hopeless until you decide to give up, or completely reject DB and keep pursuing.
Understood. I WILL NOT give up and I have been doing my best to keep from pursuing. Beyond you calling me out on my opinion about all of my family losing in divorce and her disagreeing...I have been radio silent otherwise.
Originally Posted By: ballast
I think the big thing to me was that I showed W respect for her no matter what as the wife of my D on her day, but W could not return the same respect to me
^== Covert contract. Yep, for sure I did that.
Originally Posted By: accuray
I^== That is not a fact, that is a story you're telling yourself. Your self-narrative is that W wants to hurt you, so you're telling yourself a story to reinforce what you already want to believe.
Agreed. I create self-narratives from facts to feed my anxiety and negative thoughts.
Originally Posted By: accuray
^== That's a story you're telling yourself. She didn't actually *do* anything. You're assigning malicious intent to something that happened, but you're the one doing the assignment. If she said "I didn't send you a Father's Day card because I want to punish you and hurt you", then you're entitled to feel this way, but she didn't.
Yep, again on me for taking facts and making them align to my negative mindset.
Originally Posted By: accuray
The WAS is afraid that showing you kindness, compassion, or intimacy will cause that dam to burst, have you unload a torrent of tears and emotion on them, cling to their leg and refuse to let go.
When they believe that YOUR mental state is tied to THEIR words and actions it reinforces this perception that you're just completely emotionally unstable as far as they are concerned.
So I can understand why W might think that, although I believe I have been VERY good at being stable throughout this process (at least to her directly). Thing is...let's cut the crap here a bit...I'm a simple honest man who loves his W...all of this talk about dams, W being such an expert at feelings, thoughts, action...h*ll Acc I don't know s88t about all that stuff. I mean I'm learning for sure, but God it feels like a relationship has to be a constant calculus problem I need to solve. If so, I'm screwed!
Originally Posted By: accuray
It was not intended to hurt you, it was intended to keep you at bay so that you wouldn't see an opportunity for pursuit
here again this is a W who has made up imaginary women that I'm running with! "we both know you have moved on"...woman I haven't done a D**N thing but try to figure how how in the H I can R with you and create a new MR we both can find satisfying! I have not been pursuing...my whole goal in LIFE has been patience, time and space. I can't even remember the last time I tried to talk to her about us.
Originally Posted By: accuray
Remember as well when thinking about W that there are really only two base emotions -- joy and fear. Other emotions are expressions of those two basics. Anger is rooted in fear, it's an expression of fear. W isn't angry with you, she's afraid.
So for some time in my IC sessions, my IC has said flatly..."Look she is not able to be vulnerable and share her feelings for whatever reason...probably predates you two even being together...but all she can do is be angry and suppress those more painful feelings...underneath that anger is fear...fear of hurting you, fear of losing you, fear". Do you know how HELPLESS it is to hear that the one you love SO much is going through that and YOU.CAN.NOT.HELP.HER!
Originally Posted By: accuray
If you are CONFIDENT and SELF-ASSURED the dam is gone. If you have "the attitude" there is no dam, because your emotions are not based on what she does or doesn't do.
When that happens, it is SAFE for her to be nice to you, to be compassionate, and not have to worry about being swept away.
But it has to be 100% believable, which means that you're acting that way even when no one is looking, and then sufficient time has to pass for it to be convincing, that you're not just putting on an act.
You will get there, and once you do, it won't matter what she does or doesn't do, because your self-worth is disconnected from her validation.
And you know what? That's where you *must* be in order to reconcile, because reconciling is not "taking her back" its making her convince you that she's worth starting with again, because YOU are the prize to be won. In that context, she needs to be willing to do the work, and she needs to know that if she doesn't you are GONE.
Until you have "the attitude", she won't believe that, and you can't reconcile.
I often tell people in one of my first posts that "the shortest path back together is a straight line in the opposite direction" and that's what it means. Until she believes that you are (1) good on your own, (2) don't need *anything* from her, and are (3) confident and emotionally healthy, you are NOT safe to return to.
Sometimes you have to make things worse before they can get better.
That right there is pure GOLD. I do get what you are saying. I think as I've said before H8ll man I'm just a simple straight forward guy. Trying to understand all of this...WAY harder than I ever thought. If I ever thought to give up it would not be because I question my love for her nor how much s88t I'd be willing to endure to have a new MR with her...it would actually be that I'm simply not able to process all of this emotional analysis that you are laying on me! I mean I love her true, committed for life, rich/poor, whatever comes. All of these deeper layers...God have mercy on my soul I was NEVER taught ANY of this! AND my father, grandfather each had 50+ year marriage and I know for d88n sure they had ZERO information like you are giving me.
Acc...I do not know why you care about my sitch like you do, but I can tell you that I get every word you say and that you call me out accurately every single time AND you help me see the errors in my ways. Seriously I can't thank you enough for your counsel as I struggle through the most painful time in my entire life.
Too much psychobabble for you? I don't buy this "I'm just a simple guy" narrative, you're very self-aware, I know you get it.
Most people are not educated about this stuff when they get married which is why people run into problems. Getting yourself educated can be very empowering for your next relationship, with or without W.
One other thing that I do want to say: you're totally entitled to be angry at W.
W's actions have made you hurt.
When that first happens, most people blame themselves and feel really badly for quite some time, beating themselves up for their perceived shortcomings.
At some point, our brains go into protection mode, and we start to displace the blame onto the WAS, and get very angry with them and make them out to be a totally selfish evil villain.
Part of this involves telling ourselves stories, or adopting the worst possible interpretation about what the WAS says or does.
This is a natural reaction to protect ourselves and to help us process our grief.
You know what's interesting about that? It's exactly the same thing the WAS does. Around the time they leave, they feel horribly guilty, and at some point self-preservation kicks in, they start telling themselves that YOU are the bad guy, the nothing was ever good, rewriting history and getting angry at you.
If you look at it, its really two sides of the same coin and the emotional response is more or less the same.
So the bottom line is that you don't need anyone's permission to be mad at W, and you can attach that anger to irrational things if it helps you.
The important thing is to be self-aware, to be able to step back and gain some perspective from time to time, and not to get too drunk on your invented narrative.
Like all things, the anger will pass, and if you try to push it off it will just wait and hit you later. You have to go through it and you have to feel all of it, so feel free to vent and rant. It can be very healing.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
In almost 4 months W has not had a single word on why she left. In the mean time I've learned a ton about relationship dynamics all of which I had really no idea about prior to BD. So I have all of this information, much of which I can apply to myself right away to be better in a next relationship BUT I have this complete void in my current sitch.
Frustration/hurt are my main emotions these days. It takes alot to anger me which is perhaps a detriment to me in a relationship as it leads me to be perceived as too passive and the MR dynamics can get out of whack. I just don't understand W's complete silence on what happened. Thankfully I'm becoming better at resolving myself to acceptance I may never know. Accepting that is made easier by the fact that I know I did not leave and I have always been open to talking with her if/when she wanted. I am terribly hurt/sad about what has happened, but I know I can D with a clear conscience if that is the choice she makes. And I still have compassion for her even as she has anger towards me. I recognize that underneath she is afraid. Of what truly I have no idea...I just wish she could be vulnerable enough to talk with me. We have an amazing D who needs us both, even just for co-parenting we need much better communication for her sake at least.
Lastly, I am definitely not pushing off any emotion that hits me. I am going through whatever comes at me as it does which is why as you see in some of my posts I kinda all over the place. Again for that I beg everyone's pardon and sincerely thank you for all of the wonderfully kind support/knowledge you share with me.
