hoosjim that is all fair. But again I am seeing a lot of shifting and justification. I am well aware of compounding debt, and how hard, especially with unsecured credit, it is to pay a large debt. It just sound you jumped right to that in your confession to her, almost as if you were a victim. Maybe that is true, but in the confession is probably not the place to have the discussion about your experience with unsecured debt and high interest rates (and low minimum payments).
The point on the deflection on the "not trusting" was that if this had been owned up to 20 years ago (or whenever it was new) then her you not trusting her to stick around if she found out during the affair would have been a moot point.
Again, just something to keep an eye on. I watched my father, for decades, make bad spending decisions, hide it from y mom, and then try to justify it away with all sorts of explanations and "I am the victim" tactics. The problem was he never learned from it because a few years later he'd do it all over again.
Making mistakes is human. We all make them. Learning and growing in those mistakes is the key. You have an opportunity here to step back and see if there is learning and growth that can be had in your coming clean with your W.
Good luck sir, hopefully this is a small bump in the road and you both will be better for it moving forward. I'll keep you and your family in my prayers.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Jim, I'm sure that had to be tough not just to tell her but to own it here as well. I'm glad you did, I'm sure it feels like a great weight has been lifted even though the problem is still there. At least it's something you can openly address with your W now.
My XW accrued a huge amount of secret debt. We always kept our bank accounts and credit cards separate and shared the expenses. So I never knew about her CC debt until she told me, and by then she had let is fester for 10 years and it was nearly 6 figures. When I hear her talk about how she felt like she had to "walk on eggshells all the time" I am 100% sure she's talking about keeping that debt a secret. So it may have been a huge factor in her leaving, I think she just developed a ton of resentment over it even though I didn't know about it and wasn't able to do anything to address it until just before she left.
The interest rates on CC debt are just insane, once it starts downhill it can quickly snowball into a huge problem. In that respect I agree with you that the system is against us. The system encourages deficit spending, but punishes us severely for it to the point that it's nearly impossible to reverse.
Anyway I wish you the best and hope your W gets over her anger over this.
I would be surprised if she doesn't bring this up again in MC or otherwise, and if it does, I would drop the justifications about timing, all of that stuff about you not thinking your relationship could handle it, etc. It's not a good look. You've been lying to her about material financial matters since the dot.com bubble burst, so it didn't just happen contemporaneously with her affair and its fallout, and your justifications -- at least the ones you posted -- gloss over the years of lying and hiding that preceded her affair and make it about her, about what she did to your relationship, etc. Understand that it is in its own way an infidelity and a breach of trust, of your marriage vows, etc. You were a lot better at hiding yours and/or she's just not as adept at snooping so she never figured it out, but there are two big injuries here, not just the one she's known about and has been trying to atone for.
Perhaps getting it out into the open can be a sort of reset, where the two of you can move out of the current dynamic (loyal, more moral LBS vs. strayed sinner trying to make amends) and actually get more quickly to a sustainable, more even playing field. Two wrongs don't make a right, but maybe they make a (better, stronger) marriage?
Me: 46 W: 44 Married: 17 Together 21 D13; S10 BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you) Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
First, I want to say, I am glad you were brave enough to come clean to her.
A small 2x4. I have always said there are more infidelities in a marriage than cheating. This is one of them. Just like you wouldn't want her to justify an A, please don't even try to justify this or place any emphasis on justifications because of the timing of where your relationship was because of her infidelity. You wanted total and complete transparency from her and you weren't giving her the same.
Honestly, she reacted way better than expected or I imagine I would. She sounds like even though upset, she is being very supportive. I would expect she is going to want complete financial transparency now. I would also suspect you are going to give her that. This may take some days to settle in for her. She may have waves of anger. I would expect and understand that too.
This will truly test the strength of your reconciliation. For both of you, just not her commitment. It's a lesson and a blessing in a way, and I hope you find a way to work through this as a couple.
I would be surprised if she doesn't bring this up again in MC or otherwise, and if it does, I would drop the justifications about timing, all of that stuff about you not thinking your relationship could handle it, etc. It's not a good look. You've been lying to her about material financial matters since the dot.com bubble burst, so it didn't just happen contemporaneously with her affair and its fallout, and your justifications -- at least the ones you posted -- gloss over the years of lying and hiding that preceded her affair and make it about her, about what she did to your relationship, etc. Understand that it is in its own way an infidelity and a breach of trust, of your marriage vows, etc. You were a lot better at hiding yours and/or she's just not as adept at snooping so she never figured it out, but there are two big injuries here, not just the one she's known about and has been trying to atone for.
Perhaps getting it out into the open can be a sort of reset, where the two of you can move out of the current dynamic (loyal, more moral LBS vs. strayed sinner trying to make amends) and actually get more quickly to a sustainable, more even playing field. Two wrongs don't make a right, but maybe they make a (better, stronger) marriage?
JRuss said it more succinctly than I ever could! This * infinity
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Hey Y'all. Just thought I'd drop by to check in. I had been hoping to be more of a presence here as things firmed up with my own sitch, but life-- maintaining a good MR takes time and effort (and is soooo worth it), and flare up of my neck injury that makes it painful to sit at a computer for any extended period of time-- has had other plans.
I also would like to do this (or at least something to help others in similar situations) with my wife's knowledge and, preferably, participation. I have told her as much in general terms, but have not specifically mentioned DB-ing or the DB forums, nor have i ever even mentioned to her that I benefitted from the DB methodology nor that i came to these forums. AFAIK, she is not even aware of DB-ing! Which brings up an interesting point from which i would like community input: She and I are fairly solid right now... is there ever a circumstance, and, if so, what is it, where you could safely bring your recovering WW here without opening up a can of worms or doing some actual damage to your MR? DB-ing is, as the books and forums say, "for you"... not for your WAS, and, as we all know, we speak very frankly here about things that might be extremely uncomfortable to say the least for a Wayward spouse to see. I know even Michelle in her books makes allusion to the dynamic that DB-ing might tend to be viewed by some as "manipulative", although she explains why its not, but... still. Anyhoo, specifically in my case, there is not much left in here that my W does not know about in terms of my interactions with and concerning her during her affair... but there is some stuff... just as i am sure there is stuff from the affair that she has not told me. Anyway, just curious about everyone's thoughts, here, not just about the idea of including my W in my knowledge of DB-ing and what it did for me, but about the idea of actually involving her here on the site (assuming she would even be interested). Bottom line is i feel a little funny coming here to provide support and dole out advice without my W knowing about it... almost like i am having an online affair of sorts with you people, lol
Specifically about my MR, things are going great! Not much time right now but I'll try to stream of consciousness as best I can:
The issue where i had to come clean about my longstanding secretiveness concerning finances and things i had hidden has been a good test for us, and we seem to be "passing". We have discussed it in depth, laid out all of the debts and assets and balances, and made plans to overcome the financial overhang. She and i are both taking responsibility for certain parts of it an treating it as a partnership effort, she didn't insist on "well, after this, you need to let me do everything financially" nor did she try to hold anything over my head or otherwise "punish" me. In terms of the impact to the MR, I think we came out even stronger. She was, of course, hurt and disappointed, but, in the end, the whole episode just reinforced what we both had already come to realize which is that we need to lean on and rely on each other in times of hardship or trouble, and need to be willing to share problems or mistakes with the other without having to worry about whether the other one will "leave" the MR or that the MR will be irretrievably damaged. This is what our MC refers to as "I will stay"-- an tacit but mutually understood promise that, no matter how hard things get, no matter what we tell each other, we are in the MR for the long haul... we will work through and work out whatever problems arise. The absence of this-- at root, really, the absence of true trust, vulnerability, and intimacy-- was what law at the foundation of all our MR troubles culminating in the affair and our near break-up. We are past that now... and are comfortable confiding even difficult things to each other. Which brings me to...
OM Status update: He's leaving town. In fact, leaving the state. He also called my W at work and left her a message telling her so and saying "congratulations to you and hoosjim, I'm happy for you... BTW this is where i am moving to." My W told me this during our last MC session (yes, we have finally begun taking the MC sessions again-- once a month for now and will re-visit the spacing in the Spring, with our counselor Jessica saying she hopes we can fairly soon back off to just having periodic sessions to address trouble spots.) At any rate, W told me about the phone message OM left on her work phone... said it happened shortly after our episode concerning the finances and she wasn't quite sure how to bring it up to me in the midst of that, or how i would take it. This sparked a very cathartic and helpful conversation between the three of us about trust and openness with one's spouse, about trusting them to still "be there" and not worrying so much about how they would react, but, with the confidence of knowing that the MR was strong, being able to bring difficult issues to each other so that they can be worked through and not hidden. Discussed how her holding that back came from a similar place as me holding back the financial information, that we were getting better at that sort of thing (obviously, we both "came clean" on our own), and that that was a place we should remember that we once were and that we didn't want to go back to that place.
For those interested in the lurid, soap-opera details as the OM saga winds down: He is moving out of state; his daughter, who had been slated to go to college at the same place my younger son is going, is instead going to a different college near his soon-to-be home; and his son, who played football with my older son, is now going to college somewhat near to where my W's parents live a couple of states north of us. W confirmed that she believes he really is moving as she saw a for sale sign in front of his house when she was going out to get dinner with a GF a couple of weeks back and the GF drove by his house on way there (he is on a major thorofare and it was not out of the way for them to be going by there, so i am not concerned about the drive-by). In our session, W was asked how she felt about the call, and said she had mixed feelings. She said, yes, he still sometimes pops into her head or she'll remember some memory if we pass one of the places she'd seen him in the past, but she no longer wants to go see him or be with him, and "hates the person she was becoming" when she was still seeing him. She didn't answer the phone when he called her work, but let the VM pick it up. (She has confided in the girl who works in the desk next to hers... a work friend... about what we have gone through and about OM so that she has a safety valve at work, someone to talk to, etc.) I was asked the same and, surprisingly, i was not as angry as you might have thought i would be, even at OM, although i did say that that those memories still brought some pain even as i no longer feared that my W would stray or go back to him. MC said this was good, that it showed confidence in our MR, and that i was getting over the mistrust, and that getting over the pain would take time. I asked her what she thought about me contacting OM to "let him know that i knew and that W had told me about it" and she said it was up to me. W said she didn't want me confronting him and i said i had no intention of doing so. I did send him a brief email, indicating i knew, wishing his family well (his kids are decent people) and saying i forgave what had gone in the past, but that W and i were doing great and still didn't want him in our lives and that he should refrain from further contact. His response was non-confrontational, but also completely unapologetic... he actually insinuated he should get credit for "helping to save a friend's marriage", lol. But, whatever. It validated what i knew about him, and that he is not someone we ever want in our lives again, but it felt good to say those words "I forgive" and to let go of some of that anger and resentment. I feel good about where i am and about where i and my W are.. don't need to dwell on the past at this point.
W and i are good, and are still doing lots of fun things socially. We make it a point to have a date night once a week, at least (and for people piecing out there, i CANNOT overemphasize how helpful and important it is to date your spouse), we flirt by text and by phone during the day, leave each other little notes or buy cards or flowers "just because." I'll drop by her office unannounced to surprise her sometimes with a soda or piece of candy or just a smile, which always goes over well. She left work early one day last week and kept sending me suggestive texts urging me to come home early, which i did and, well, <ahem>.... it's just been fun. For our anniversary last weekend, there was a classic car show about an hour west of here at an old drive in movie theater that still is in operation. So, i rented a convertible mustang and got us a room at an old historic hotel in the same town, and we drove out to see the cars and then watch the movies. Sat in the backseat of the convertible with the top down, watched the sun go down (gorgeous, like God painted it just for us) and watched the movie and made out a little, too. Was a really nice, but un-elaborate and inexpensive weekend, but went over really well. We make time every day/night to talk, and i make it a point to be up with her when she goes to bed, even if i need to be up a little later as is often the case. I'll massage her feet and calves, which she loves (she's on her feet alot during the day). She says ILY alot, and is very warm and demonstrative, as am i.
As far as my W's recovery from being a "WW", she really seems to be all the way back. She's always where she says she's going to be, doesn't stay late at work any more... in fact, except for that one time idunno nearly two months ago, has not even asked to or voiced any interest in staying after work with that doctor and others to "have a glass of wine or two." She just doesn't seem interested. She wants to get home and see me and put in work on the house that we are planning to sell in the Spring. She also will still cry from time to time, throw her arms around me and say "I'm so lucky" or "Im so glad i have you" or the like, and then add something like "Thank you for being here" or "Thank you for forgiving me". Her toxic bff, who now lives about 1000 miles away, is not nearly the presence in her life she used to be. They talk maybe once a week now, and text some, as opposed to nearly daily convos when bff was local and the Affair was going on and W was doing the ggw thing.
I think that's about it for now. Wish i had more time to drop by here and help out... maybe in the near future. Don't forget to give me your thoughts on sharing DB-ing and these forums with my W, as i indicated above.
Thanks again, y'all, as always!
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Glad to hear from you Jim. Happy things are improving. Imho I wouldn´t share DB science with my wife. You do no harm keeping that for yourself. I think you answered your own question.
Wishing the best for your boys, your W and you.
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
hoosjim, I would advise against it. You know that I am also in R and piecing. And while someday I might share with her DBing etc, right now I still can't trust that a relapse won't occur. Maybe you are more sure than I am but I want DBing at as my advantage if anything were to ever flare up again. Maybe years from now when she has been consistent all that time then I can feel comfortable sharing that.
Of course, my sitch is that her EA was her second, the first occurring in 2005 (when I first found DBing).
Also, I've recently started talking about how hard piecing and R are! You alluded to in your latest post. It takes work and effort. Sometimes, not sure about you, but for me I've questioned if I made the right choice or not. So many come here wanting to R above everything else, but what if the WS never gives up their waywardness? What if they are narcissistic? Or have other personality and emotional deficiencies? On and on. While we are a DB forum, sometimes the answer is to run away from the toxic spouse as fast as you can and do not look back.
I think guys like you and I have a lot to offer to posters that are in a situation where they need to just cut bait and move on. You and I know how hard it is EVEN after the WAS recommits to the MR and is willing to work. So for those whose spouse refuses to recommit fully, what should the LBS do? Try to R at all costs? Maybe not. Especially, as you and I are all too aware, when infidelity has played a role.
Anyway, always good to hear from you and get an update! Glad the financial secret was just a bump in the road!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Was a really nice, but un-elaborate and inexpensive weekend, but went over really well. We make time every day/night to talk, and i make it a point to be up with her when she goes to bed, even if i need to be up a little later as is often the case. I'll massage her feet and calves, which she loves (she's on her feet alot during the day). She says ILY alot, and is very warm and demonstrative, as am i.