Affair discovered 2

[STH17]

Is that what the counselor told you? That you were an unforgiving abuser? That counselor used some very harsh words and they took a heavy toll on you. Did this counselor have IC sessions with your W before ever having a joint session?

Do you see yourself as a man who abused his W, or are you learning from the book you mentioned? Again I have to ask........how did you abuse her emotionally.

Minor correction, I wrote unforgivable, not unforgiving. And no, those are not the words the MC used. In fact I remember it more like him trying to break the news gently to both of us that my behavior amounted to emotional abuse, but that he was saying that more as a diagnosis and place to start healing from for both of us, not as any kind of harsh accusation towards me or pronouncement that our relationship was unrecoverable. But I think that revelation with the label gave W something to point to as the source of all her unhappiness, i.e. it was my fault because she was the victim of emotional abuse. That same appointment was the last one we did together with MC and it was decided he would work with W alone, at W's request and counselor's recommendation. That was supposed to be for her to heal, and was also about the same time I started staying with friends. I feel like MC left me hanging, and should have continued guiding me as well.

As for how I have emotionally abused W, I think that is easiest to answer by being honest with the resentments I've had toward her. I resented her for spending money on things I thought were unnecessary and not budgeting with me in a way that allowed me to have equal spending. I'm a saver, she's a spender. I criticized most purchases she made. Most decisions she made or wanted to make, I suggested something that I thought was better, and often wouldn't let it go if she disagreed with me. I think that's been a big one, not supporting her decisions.
I've never been comfortable with unpleasant emotions, always wanting to banish them from myself and others around me, so I would tell my wife she shouldn't feel certain things, like she shouldn't be as hurt as she was by something someone did to her, because that person probably didn't mean to hurt her. That's the kind of thing I tell myself, and it works for me (well I thought it did, maybe it just represses my emotions). But that was invalidating of W's emotions, and she stopped feeling safe talking to me. It's like my response to her feeling bad was just "don't feel that way, you shouldn't feel that way".
I am learning from the Stosney book that walling off my own emotions from both myself and my W is a form of emotional abuse towards her as well. I would shut down in the face of W's criticism, because I felt inadequate. Conversations with W about difficult subjects would often result in long silences from me, not sure what to say, leaving W in an anxious state feeling abandoned. Those kinds of interactions are the ones I've been most resistant to the abuse label, since I typically was feeling helpless myself, not intentionally stonewalling. So I still have to sort that out but the book is helping me do that. I see that W and I both have been hurt by each other, and I want to be a better person myself.

Do you see yourself as a man who abused his W, or are you learning from the book you mentioned?

I do accept that my behavior was emotionally abusive, but I do not see myself as "a man who abused his wife" as though that is my identity. I am a man who loves his wife and son and is worthy of being loved. That's the kind of self-respect I want to reclaim by confronting W about the affair. After writing this I still feel conflicted about it though.

[sandi2]

I don't think a good IC would call you an unforgiving abuser unless there were some truly horrendous circumstances, and if that were the case, then the IC should be telling your wife to run away as quickly as possible. So, I smell a rat.

I am smelling something, too.

Anyone can claim someone has been emotionally abusive. You could be a little quite one day b/c you just weren't feeling physically well.......and she could claim you were being withdrawn and cold. See what I mean? While in her IC sessions, she could have over dramatized your behavior and had the counselor agreeing you were emotionally abusive. Heck, I could explain my H's actions and a counselor would say it was emotional abuse! However, I know the truth.

For my part, I won't deny the accusation of emotional abuse anymore after having read just some of the Stosny book. I think that book is a great resource I need more time with. I haven't talked about it with W.

Her IC and your IC to use the abuse word. Yet, you have not told us how you abused her emotionally. Can you tell us? If you can't, then I have to question the counselors.

I suggest you not mention the book to your W. The less said to her about you being her abuser, the better. Actions are what count.

she is doing it in a spiteful and bitter way. But maybe it just feels that way to me because she is rejecting me. Or it feels like rejection to me when it is really more about her self-protection.

She is acting like a selfish WW. I want you to stop believing you are a monster that deserves anything she throws in your face. Understand? If you made mistakes, then stop repeating those behaviors and start acting in a healthy way. If you don't know how, then become educated. You are so beaten down, and I could see why......having counselors accuse you of emotionally abusing your W. I have seen emotional abuse in action, and although I am no expert..........(well, I will keep the rest of those comments for another time).

As far as I know, affair started after separation. Never any inappropriate behavior in the past like flirting, though over the span of our relationship I can think of three or four men she has talked about with a kind of admiration I never heard her speak of me. Like she would have crushes, but maybe her self-esteem was too low to flirt.

These "crushes" sound as if they were emotional affairs. She could have an emotional affair with one of these guys, and he might never suspect she had feelings for him. Most times, IMHO, it is some romantic fantasy she has about the guy. If she feeds that fantasy, it can grow to the point of really affecting her R with her H.

. I felt jealous and anxious when she talked like that, but I thought I shouldn't make a big deal of it so I didn't talk about it.

Did you ever consider that she was trying to make you jealous?

That's how I approached all conflicts or negative thoughts/resentments towards my wife, and I think that's why I ended up emotionally abusing her, because I didn't know what to do with those feelings I thought I wasn't supposed to have about her.

My H did the very same thing. It made me act worse! I was trying to get some kind of response out of him. He was like a piece of dead wood. Nothing! I thought I could be scr@wing some guy in the front yard and my H would show no reaction. But when I really did have an A, I saw a side of him I never wanted to see again.

I have met with a lawyer for a consultation. I think W has told me she has done the same, though I haven't told W I have met with a lawye

Okay, good. Don't volunteer to tell her that you've met with one, but if she asks, just say that you have, and leave it at that. As much as you may hate this, you have to look out for your best interests from this point forward. She does not feel love or compassion toward you, and she doesn't want to save the M. Rather than you trying to prove to her what an improved H you would be if she'd only give it a chance.......you have to look at the MR as two entities. Do this to get a balanced perspective of your situation.

She has been given the role of victim, while you've been labeled abuser. Whether that is true or exaggerated, you need to stop looking the guilty part. IMHO, her actions appear more vindictive than self-protective. At any rate, don't bring up the topic of abuse. Stop sharing topic discussions about the books you are reading, or how you are "working to improve yourself", and things of that nature. The more that subject is brought up, the more she is going to use it to destroy whatever is left of the M. I'm not saying this is something to be swept under the rug, but as stated previously, something doesn't smell quite right. Let her work it out with her therapist and you work it out with yours. Make sense?

I already knew about the party this weekend, and that she didn't want me to go with her. No big deal there, but my sister's son is being baptized and I wanted to go to that. Since both things are 2 hours away in our shared hometown, we will be driving together. That will be an awkward drive

She's going to a party and doesn't want you along? My suggestion is to take separate vehicles. You leave whenever you like, without having to wait for her, or even communicate while there. Look, you are either separated or you aren't. If you are separated, then you should act/show that you're separated. That's JMHO.

Here's my suggestion in how to confront her......and taking back the MBR, of that's the route you want to take. I would simply go get in the bed, and when she protests, you tell her that this sleeping arrangement is not working for you. "Since you are the one who has opened the door to a third party, I no longer feel compelled to accommodate your sleeping preferences. You can sleep here or elsewhere, but I am staying". You know, of course, she'll claim you are being abusive.

If you actually fear some physical altercation from her, then you need to find somewhere else to live, until all of this has been settled. If you think she would physically attack you, or call the cops and falsely accuse you of something.........then it's not worth it, IMHO. I would be looking for another place, and filing for a D, but that's just me! That's not anti-DBing, that's being safe and protecting yourself and your future custody rights.

You have to weigh everything and decide which is most important to you. Is it more important for you to sleep in your bed again? Is it more important to let her know you are aware of her A? Are you willing to deal with her reaction? That's something only you can answer.

I read in DR today that it is necessary to put one's own needs aside while DBing. A 180 for me though is to actually voice my needs.

Give an example of one of your needs. Learning to do this in the right time frame is very important.

I never did clarify to W that I would not fight a divorce if W files herself, but that she needs to file separately. My therapist still wants me to have that conversation with W, and I am supposed to practice it with my therapist tomorrow in my appointment, along with confronting about affair, if that is the best thing to do. I'm starting to think it's not, but don't know what else to do which will help me recover my own core value and make decisions for my future rather than letting W drag me along for a ride.

Why is it necessary to tell her you don't want a D?

Look, I am here to try and support who I can. I am for saving the M whenever possible. Sometimes, a period of physical separation helps the couple to focus on themselves rather than the faults of each other. Whenever the abuse word is being used a lot, I especially think a period of physical separation is needed, in order to heal and have a better chance of reconciliation in the future. I think in-house separation is one of the most damaging things a LBS can do. These are just my thoughts.

[STH17]

She's going to a party and doesn't want you along? My suggestion is to take separate vehicles. You leave whenever you like, without having to wait for her, or even communicate while there. Look, you are either separated or you aren't. If you are separated, then you should act/show that you're separated. That's JMHO.

I would take separate vehicles, but we only have one that would make that trip. Maybe I could tell her I'm taking that car, and she can ride in the back seat. Or she can take the other car since she didn't mind driving it an hour last weekend. She even asked me yesterday if I would watch our son after the party she's going to because there's somewhere else she wants to go. The shakiness in her voice and her fidgeting told me she's up to no good. Since I hadn't confronted her yet, I just said, yeah I'll watch our son. I'm not going to control her behavior by forcing her to take our son. Not going to use son in that way. Anyway, since that party is this weekend, and she starts her 3-hour therapy session tomorrow, tonight seems like a good time to take the bed and confront her. She can talk about it in therapy, if she has the guts. I am really curious if she has been open about her affair in therapy.

Here's my suggestion in how to confront her......and taking back the MBR, of that's the route you want to take. I would simply go get in the bed, and when she protests, you tell her that this sleeping arrangement is not working for you. "Since you are the one who has opened the door to a third party, I no longer feel compelled to accommodate your sleeping preferences. You can sleep here or elsewhere, but I am staying". You know, of course, she'll claim you are being abusive.

This is pretty much how I'm envisioning it going and how I planned to go about it. A very compassionate friend thought I should tell her I'm taking the bed before just lying down in it. Just lying in the bed and taking it seems a little passive-aggressive. Or does just taking the bed make it a stronger message like "of course I'm taking the bed and you have no right to keep me out of it."

Give an example of one of your needs. Learning to do this in the right time frame is very important.

I guess what I mean here is simply that I have a need not to be cuckolded, and that's what it feels like to not confront W about the affair, and to just agree to watch son so she can go out alone. I know it won't stop her if she knows I know, but I wa I don't give up my bed to a woman who is having an affair and doesn't have the decency to tell me.

Why is it necessary to tell her you don't want a D?

This was supposed to also be so I would be in integrity with my values for my commitment to the marriage. But insisting I don't want a divorce in no way helps me stop the divorce or my W's waywardness, right? I think now it's just more about telling W to do most of the work of the divorce, because I've got my own life to carry on with. I thought I would take a stand by telling her she'll have to file by herself rather than jointly with me, but I'm not sure I gain anything from that anymore either. I want W to return to the marriage, and I don't believe it is "irretrievably broken", but that is just me knowing that W could repair our relationship if she so chose. People come back from worse, right?

[STH17]

Well I actually did something. Here's how it went: I put my pillow and blanket on bed while W was in bathroom. Told her through the door I wanted to talk. She asked if we could talk after she showered. I said no I had to go to bed soon. She finished washing her face (takes five minutes). Meanwhile I try to breathe and calm myself in son's room where he's sleeping. She comes out of bathroom I request we go downstairs to talk. I start with "you want a divorce right? I'm not standing in the way of that. That's your choice you've made to leave the marriage. You can file and I'll work on the negotiations with you. You've made it clear you don't value this marriage. From the behaviors I've witnessed I believe you're having an affair. I'm not going to ignore that."

Here I let myself be baited a little, as she wasn't saying anything and looked to me like she was smirking and enjoying this. I said "I see your wry smile". She says "I wasn't smiling". Fine, whatever. Maybe it was just because she was leaning her cheek on her fist.

I continued: "I'm going to have to start prioritizing my own self-care. That means things will be changing." Might have been here that she said she agreed. I finished with "Part of that's is that I'm not sleeping on the couch anymore, im sleeping in the bed." She said "you're kicking me out of the bedroom?" Not incredulously, just for clarification it seemed. I think I said "I'm sleeping in the bed, I'm not sleeping on the couch while you're having an affair."

And then I went to bed, and she followed to collect her pillows and blanket. I think we both got some of what we wanted. Unfortunately what I also got was a tick crawling on my ankle shortly thereafter because W was out in long grass today. Oh well, all the more reason to strip the bed of W's new sheets she bought herself. Doesn't feel like progress towards R, but it feels good to do at least something for myself. Hope I can keep that feeling and not regret it later. What's done is done, and more decisions will have to be made.

Overall, W's response was pretty much just apathetic. No drama at all. Either the meds and therapy had something to do with that, or she just doesn't care at all. Or had been waiting for this conversation for a while. She texted me after her shower to ask if I'd still watch son tomorrow, and if I would agree to be on the same page with her about him. I agreed, saying I'd already told son I'd be taking care of him tomorrow.

[doodler]

I continued: "I'm going to have to start prioritizing my own self-care. That means things will be changing." Might have been here that she said she agreed. I finished with "Part of that's is that I'm not sleeping on the couch anymore, im sleeping in the bed." She said "you're kicking me out of the bedroom?" Not incredulously, just for clarification it seemed. I think I said "I'm sleeping in the bed, I'm not sleeping on the couch while you're having an affair."

Sorry.

Congratulations on taking your bed back! That's a huge first step in the right direction. Just be sure to take care of your financial stuff; she'll drain you dry if you let her.

[Davide]

Congrats! That seems like a big step, not just taking the bed back but having that conversation and standing up for yourself. It seems like you are on the right path!

[SteveLW]

STH, well done. Well handled. I think maybe your firm, cool resolve during this is why she handled it the way she did.

I wish there was an applause button here because I would push it for you!

[DDJ]

Well done on getting the bed back. It is really a big victory.

I also want to add that whatever you believe, becomes your reality. Those beliefs are based on your values and morals. So make sure that you find you can clearly identify what you will and will not accept. Make it a very very thick line, one that not even you can cross.

Woman want a strong man, they want to be challenged, so even if things don't work out, you'll be strong for the next person.

My D threw me into an identity crisis, my XWW is still on her roller-coaster, i'm eating popcorn watching this crazy thing go past me. I've found it to be quite entertaining. You need to find a way to laugh, cos the only other option is tears. Tears from laughter is best though.

Have no doubt that when you get off her coaster, you will be the best man that you've been. So enjoy the ride/lesson.

[STH17]

W slept on the couch last night. She packed a suitcase while I was at work today. Looks like enough for an extended stay, not just the weekend. She also removed the art prints she recently hung in the bedroom. So she's at least moving out of the bedroom, could be out of the house. This doesn't feel like DBing, just feels like divorce. Shoul I be proactive and ask W how long she plans to be gone, so we can plan for childcare, or wait for her to bring it up herself? Didn't think all this through much past the confrontation. Just didn't want to keep her dirty secret anymore and be so self-effacing.

[SteveLW]

I would wait for her to bring it up. Consider what would make more of an impact, you reacting exactly like she'd expect you to, that is to call, pursue, want to know what's going on? Or just being cool, detached, calm, and not worrying about what she's doing.

DBing feels counter-intuitive. That is when you know you are doing it well.