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Surv1ve #2840422 03/05/19 07:01 PM
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Oh gosh, such good questions, and no, I find it supportive.

There was a date set for meditation back in June, and that was driven by EX/OM where the three of us and our three lawyers were supposed to meet and begin setting a separation agreement. I dreaded it, and I did everything that was asked of me in terms of financial disclosure. As per MWD, I refused to discuss issues directly and used the lawyer as a shield. As it turned out, two of our lawyers were opposite each other in another case and had to cancel that day because they had to be in court. It never got rescheduled. EX/OM started this job a few weeks later, and he's always been the driver. EX/OM has been trying really hard to secure sustainable employment for himself, and that's been his first priority. I know it's so he can leave (or that was the initial motivator), but I also think it's good for him and I support all of his efforts. Frankly, too, I don't want to be financially responsible for him if we do split, so OF COURSE I support his resume building efforts. He hasn't had a lot of work history, and as a trans man with a chronic illness, he has some barriers to face.

I don't discuss my relationship with H with EX/OM anymore. At all. So, it's hard for me to know directly what he thinks, but H does report to me every once in a while that EX/OM is increasingly angry with H for having not moved out yet. Which is super fair, really, as H kept saying he was going to do it and then has made zero progress whatsoever. So, I think EX/OM sees the increase in warmth and knows H is full of crap, and I guess that's between EX/OM and H.

My relationship with EX/OM has gotten much better. It's so confusing. My birthday is in January, and when I came home that day, the entire house was covered in origami butterflies and I received thoughtful gifts and H made my very favorite meal and sent me pictures of its progress throughout the day. EX/OM did something I consider very inappropriate with my son just before Christmas, and I told him if he ever did that again, I would ask him to move out immediately. I was sure I would get the "cold front" after that, but I didn't. If anything, he's been every warmer! He did finally explain that seeing me so angry but also not "splashing him with teh anger" and "keeping it inside my own hula hoop" increased his trust of me. Recently, when he was discussing enrolling in an online master's program and I gave him my full support, he said, "I've been wondering how much of my story about you was the depression and how much of it was who you were back then, when you would hurt people with your emotions." I told him that we should assume it's both. He still feels trapped in the house and frustrated, but he's moved the blame to H instead of me.

H actually does not seem to be bothered the EX/OM has continued his transition and is read as a man in society. He even went with EX/OM to his company Christmas party where people assumed he was a gay man. I was shocked. But, apparently, no, not really a problem.

My lawyer sent me an email a month ago and asked what was going on. I said I had no idea, nothing is moving. So, a pause for now.


BD#1: "marriage is over" 9/14/2016
H in basement 24/7 with EX/OM
BD#2: 3/20/2017 I plan to move out "soon" I LRT
me: 42, H, 41, EX/OM, 37
D 10, Son 7
M to H = 20 years
EX/OM moved in 10 years ago
Surv1ve #2840435 03/05/19 07:53 PM
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Unclear in earlier post: the butterflies all over the house and the thoughtful presents for my birthday were both fully EX/OM's work.


BD#1: "marriage is over" 9/14/2016
H in basement 24/7 with EX/OM
BD#2: 3/20/2017 I plan to move out "soon" I LRT
me: 42, H, 41, EX/OM, 37
D 10, Son 7
M to H = 20 years
EX/OM moved in 10 years ago
Surv1ve #2840443 03/05/19 08:24 PM
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Wow, just kind of fizzled out. I'm so glad that ExOM is now placing the blame with your H. Odd that he is now being nice to you, but I guess since you guys were close before and then the anger goes and the feelings return.

But I don't understand this part: "I've been wondering how much of my story about you was the depression and how much of it was who you were back then, when you would hurt people with your emotions."

Was ExOM meaning your depression or his own? Was ExOM meaning that being an emotional person causes harm to others, or there is an implication that you were acting out from those emotions. I actually think my own H might say that my emotions was one of the biggest problems between us, so this hits somewhat close to home for me.

Surv1ve #2840451 03/05/19 09:08 PM
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Such good questions!

EX/OM was referring to his own depression. At the time that everything unravelled, he was not expressing his gender, he hadn't been working, and he wasn't enjoying being a stay at home parent. He said that he had a belief that his role was to be the recipient of my big emotions and assauge them, and at some point, he no longer wanted to do that. He was saying that he believes he was depressed at the time and was perhaps unfair to me, but he also says that my emotional expression is a much fairer expression now. I'm not trying to "get" something when I express emotions. Last week, to me, he said this...

"Emotional growth and healing has always been important to you. But, it's like, if you were a snowplow, you were chugging along but there were spikes in your tractor tires and bystanders would get injured as you expressed yourself and tried to heal. Now, you're removing the spikes from your tires."

Yeah, he always speaks in metaphors.

I think it's a dance that happens between the LBS personality and the MLC personality. He stonewalled me and shut me out, and I escalated my emotions trying to get care and get my needs met. The bigger my emotions, the more he stonewalled. He would blame me for not expressing my needs, so I would express them with such carefulness and accuracy. When he didn't meet them, he would say it's because I was too demanding (the long expression of needs). There was always a reason, but in response to that, internalizing the blame, I spent more time explaining my needs and I made them bigger, trying to make sure no one could pretend to have not know they were there. Of course, none of that was conscious, but in retrospect, that's what was happening. I wasn't expressing an emotion to express it, I was expressing an emotion in a calculated way to try to get a particular outcome. That is, of course, hugely manipulative. So, if i was angry, I might have been trying to evoke guilt or remorse for wrong doing whereas now I'm more likely to say I am angry, this is not okay, and here's my boundary.

I think I express emotions without expecting a particular outcome. Being okay with my own emotions -- even the negative ones like anger, rage, sadness -- means I don't need someone else's permission to feel them. So, I don't try to convince them that I've been wronged, because the emotions already get to be. And, I'm not asking them to fix them for me.

Yeah, not that I'd ever wish for it, but this MLC thing has made me a much better counselor. SO MUCH BETTER.

As to EX/OM being nicer to me, he says it's "civility". But, "civility" doesn't decorate the whole house in origami butterflies. Civility doesn't get excited to watch grey's anatomy. Civility doesn't go skiing with me and ride the chair lift. It's complicated.

Last edited by Surv1ve; 03/05/19 09:09 PM.

BD#1: "marriage is over" 9/14/2016
H in basement 24/7 with EX/OM
BD#2: 3/20/2017 I plan to move out "soon" I LRT
me: 42, H, 41, EX/OM, 37
D 10, Son 7
M to H = 20 years
EX/OM moved in 10 years ago
Surv1ve #2840455 03/05/19 09:14 PM
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Ok, this. This just allowed me to confront the problem with my own emotions: I'm not trying to "get" something when I express emotions.

I like the snowplow and spike metaphor too. I think you are saying in essence, when we feel that others don't hear us, we scream. When our emotions are ignored, we magnify them. I can relate to all of this and see so much of what contributed to our downfall. Obviously not the initial cause, but lead to the snowball effect.

So what did you do to make the volume of your emotions serve your needs but also not weaponize them for others?

Surv1ve #2840483 03/05/19 11:07 PM
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Oh that feels harder.

I realize in retrospect that I have always been gaslighted, first by my mother and then by H. Gaslighting referring to the process where in other people essentially say you're crazy to protect their own well being. My mom would minimize my emotions and work on convincing me that I should not be upset, and I learned to distrust my perceptions of the world and of other people's emotional expressions. For years, H would also deny that he was upset/angry/whatever and tell me that I was imagining things. You know, if he was angry and washing the dishes and slamming things, he would deny that he was angry and my gut was just wrong when it insisted that the clench of his jaw meant something.

So, part of my emotional escalation was the request to please affirm that my emotions make sense. That X happened and, of course it makes sense that I feel Y.

At some point, I realized that H gaslighted me. Not maliciously and not out of spite, but it was easier for him to deny his own emotions and tell me I was crazy than it was for him to acknowledge that he felt a negative emotion.

For a good 6 months, I simply stopped expressing my perspective. I didn't offer my perceptions because I couldn't afford to have anyone tell me they were wrong. I worked on trusting myself that that my feelings, thoughts, beliefs about what other people felt around me were okay. Even harder, I worked on the idea that even though H denied he was angry/upset/whatever it did not mean that he was NOT angry/upset/whatever. Maybe my perceptions were right EVEN if he said they weren't. Later, when I started expressing my perceptions, I didn't ask if they were true. They are my perceptions, that's already true. The other person might have a different perception, but that doesn't mean my are wrong.

I also had to learn to trust my emotions. Maybe I had no good reason to be angry, but I WAS angry. My emotions existed and they therefore had a right to exist. What I DO with an emotional truth is my choice, but I am whatever emotion I am and looking for whether or not the thing I feel upset about it is "good enough" to feel upset about is a waste of my time.

Also, my emotions are information that is worth considering. I never wake up and think, "I sure hope I'll be thirsty today." Thirst is uncomfortable and unpleasant and I don't like feeling that way. Thirst, however, also tells me that there is something wrong: I am dehydrated so I can choose to fix it or not. So, if I am angry or upset or sad, than there is something about my environment that I do not like and I can choose to try to fix it or not. All emotions get their space, and no one else gets to tell me if they exist. I don't ignore thirst and get more thirsty, right? And, I don't ask anyone else if it makes sense that I'm thirsy. So, I don't have to ignore anger and get more angry or ask anyone else if X is a good enough reason to feel anger. I can make an active choice to 1) change the situation that makes me angry or 2) increase my tolerance and work on letting it go or 3) shift my focus to things that are more important if this is actually not worth the effort.

So, I didn't need external validation to allow myself to feel certain things.

From there, it's about communicating my boundaries and what the "fix" is if it requires someone else. This means I don't have to engage in long-winded lectures or explanations. I should be able to communicate the issue in less than 4 sentences. No one else needs to decide if the problem is okay with me. I am not asking for their agreement. It's already true that it isn't okay with me. And, then the request/ask/boundary should be a truth, and perhaps there is room for negotiation or discussion.

If I ask for something or express a need and the other person isn't able to meet my request, it doesn't mean that I am wrong to want or need this thing or that I'm not worthy of receiving it. This has made me a better parent (my tween daughter!!!), a better employee, and a much better partner. A better friend, too.

A lot of that is a long-winded way of saying I found self acceptance.

I also think the (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) EMDR has been crucial. I have been receiving EMDR for about 6 months about once every 2 weeks. It is very intense emotional work, but it also is bottom up trauma recovery. It changes the brain. It means that all of the above isn't something I have to work so hard to enact or remember. It means I just act differently. That I don't work on believing my emotions are valid; I DO believe they are valid. I have also been trained in EMDR and I now deliver EMDR in my practice. I like being on both sides of the practice. I deeply, deeply believe in it. Repairing the childhood trauma means that it doesn't get to influence my behavior and beliefs about the world as much.


BD#1: "marriage is over" 9/14/2016
H in basement 24/7 with EX/OM
BD#2: 3/20/2017 I plan to move out "soon" I LRT
me: 42, H, 41, EX/OM, 37
D 10, Son 7
M to H = 20 years
EX/OM moved in 10 years ago
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 151
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Here I am again, for my once in a blue moon post that feels read by none, but these are the posts I most hungered for when I was new. The anniversary of my bomb drop is coming round again... and, this year, I will be scuba diving with my MLC and he knows I'm reclaiming a difficult day by spending it with him.

Oh, it's not all fixed yet. You want so much to believe in the beginning that your might be fast.

If I were going to provide you a quick snap shot, I would say...

MLC and I go out every week to go rock climibing and get some pub food
MLC and I cuddle on the couch twice per week on a schedule
MLC and I still avoid emotional topics except when scheduled and I still keep them to less than 20 minutes
MLC admits that he loves me and he's terrified all the time
MLC does not sleep with me and rarely comes to our former marital bedroom for any reason
MLC did tuck me into bed recently
MLC seems to admire my growth
MLC watched as I dated someone and broke up with them and talked about how much I've changed since 2 years ago (we were always open so this is not a huge deal that I dated, but me ending a relationship because it wasn't meeting my needs is new)
MLC knows that I'm the decision maker and that I occasionally set boundaries and I'm ready for this to be done, if need be, as much as I want it to work. It's me who will end this if it ends. That's always been true but I know it now.
MLC went to the therapist today to get his own EMDR after nearly 6 months of talking about it
MLC is able to openly say that he values my friendship deeply and, when asked, will tell me he's in touch with very little else in an active way

MLC is often able to state limits and boundaries and trust that I care about them.

And, to get here, I've had to do so much hard inner work in a way that was not fair at all and with no guarantees of an outcome and know that I was doing it for me regardless of the outcome. I had to do all the heavy lifting.

If I could recommend anything to newer folks, it would be to become okay with setting some boundaries. Every time I've set an honest boundary that was my truth, it has been a great thing for me. And, if I'd lost my MLC monster because I set a limit? Good riddance, honestly. My MLC monster only became my MLC friend after I set boundaries.

I told MLC that if and when he's ready, he should consider coming here to post as people would love to hear what's in his head (when he figures it out). Yeah, I broke the cardinal rule and told him this exists... but, we are beyond the monster days and he isn't going to leave unless I throw him out.


BD#1: "marriage is over" 9/14/2016
H in basement 24/7 with EX/OM
BD#2: 3/20/2017 I plan to move out "soon" I LRT
me: 42, H, 41, EX/OM, 37
D 10, Son 7
M to H = 20 years
EX/OM moved in 10 years ago
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Hello! Nice to "see" you.
I read your posts, when I'm here. I've not been here much ... it's hard, as time goes on, to read all the pain. My heart aches for the newcomer who just wants this to end and to have their beloved family and spouse back, you know? and wow, that's just not going to happen in a timely manner, because the MLCr has to go through their process, however long it may take. I've moved to the Post D part of the forums.

Originally Posted by Surv1ve
And, to get here, I've had to do so much hard inner work in a way that was not fair at all and with no guarantees of an outcome and know that I was doing it for me regardless of the outcome. I had to do all the heavy lifting.


YES. Absolutely. that's exactly it, the path of the LBS.

Originally Posted by Surv1ve
If I could recommend anything to newer folks, it would be to become okay with setting some boundaries. Every time I've set an honest boundary that was my truth, it has been a great thing for me. And, if I'd lost my MLC monster because I set a limit? Good riddance, honestly. My MLC monster only became my MLC friend after I set boundaries.


Now this is interesting. When I set limits, my MLCr monstered more at first then would simply disappear. That's his M. O. though. I think mine thought he could do whatever he wanted. He was absolutely shocked at some of the firm limits I set. I've wondered where we would be today if I hadn't set them. Would we be back together? If so, I know I wouldn't be happy, but would be going along and stifling my own needs to keep the family intact. That is no way to live, so overall, I'm at peace with the limits I set.

Your update shows your hard work and also progress. My heart goes out to the MLCr and your H in particular, as he's clearly in pain and doing his best to find his way back. I'm so glad the MLC path isn't mine. Keep posting Surv1ve. You're doing great!!! xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Oh hello bttrfly.

I'm glad you set your limits. Yes, maybe you would have kept your MLCer a little longer, but at what cost? I know that is what helped me to set those first limits: seeing that he thought I'd tolerate anything and knowing I was erasing myself. My biggest grief these days is that I tolerated so much abuse from him. That I sold myself out.

And yes the MLCer and my H are in so much pain. He articulated in his therapy appointment realizing that his parentsnever praised punished him like he didn't matter or didn't exist. And he understands how he blamed me for everything and projected so much on to me. He says he has to figure out how to forgive himself. The anger at me seems gone. I saw the monster briefly this summer, but when I named it, he immediately reverted to his new normal which is wavering between fear and anxiery. When he's calm, he can be warm and compassionate. He is absolutely terrified of resuming our romantic or sexual relationship... that he won't be able to set limits or boundaries and he'll just be swallowed.

I know now that resolution back to marriage will take a long long time and I wonder if I will have the patience. And there has been so much beautiful growth in this last year.


BD#1: "marriage is over" 9/14/2016
H in basement 24/7 with EX/OM
BD#2: 3/20/2017 I plan to move out "soon" I LRT
me: 42, H, 41, EX/OM, 37
D 10, Son 7
M to H = 20 years
EX/OM moved in 10 years ago
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,119
Likes: 408
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happy thanksgiving Surv1ve xo


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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