If you end up in a litigated situation, I don't think there is a court in the land that would oppose counseling for the kids. But as bttrfly put on her thread, don't push it. I've had S in counseling for years, but only now, at 14, when he sought out the male counselor in his school, is he finally making progress and getting thinky. I think he just entertained the others.
Do as bttrfly says and try not to think too far out. I've changed my mind so many times about what I want and I still haven't seen those divorce papers (or even his first revision to the separation contract he has had for a year).
I wouldn't bother asking what the need for speed is. He is just going to lie anyway. I'd just be calm, take it at your speed, and keep reminding him it's a big deal and he has had lots of time to process this and get ready and you have not.
Still keep those expectations at low, and don't let this development take over your life. Things are never as swift or problem-free as we want them to be and you need the stamina to get through this and your kids need a sane mom.
Will he exercise 50/50 custody? Remains to be seen. What you think you want, how you deal with it, and whether you carry it out are all unknowns until you are in the situation.
I'd focus on no 3rd party introductions until 6 mos after the divorce is final.
Last edited by job; 01/10/1802:14 AM. Reason: edited per the poster
[quote=You're a great writer but I think TACTICALLY, the best approach in this situation is emotional aikido. Make him think she is going along with things, isn't stalling but just wants to make sure the paperwork will hold water. THEN once she has response from her lawyers to give him she can refer him to her lawyer as needed. But playing along with him for present, making him think she's going along with things is likely to cause less resistance. (Guys like this often are unreasonably worried they'll be "taken to the cleaners" and of course, want the "zipless divorce a la Erica Jong's Fear of Flying).
Reality will hit soon enough. No need to stir him up yet./quote]
You bring up some excellent points, Ellie. I do get what you mean by using the strategy of emotional aikido in this particular time. The one thing that really bothers me is that HaWho is still enaaging in those details with H...I'd rather leave it to the pros. In my case, it was a Godsend to have that buffer between me and Ms. Wonka when we negotiated the sale of the house etc.
I still need think it is critical that HaWho tell H that she is within her rights to have her own lawyer...that is a firm line in the sand! Non-negotiable.
Sorry Wonka, that wasn't finished! You're a great writer but I think TACTICALLY, the best approach in this situation is emotional aikido. Make him think she is going along with things, isn't stalling but just wants to make sure the paperwork will hold water. THEN once she has response from her lawyers to give him she can refer him to her lawyer as needed. But playing along with him for present, making him think she's going along with things is likely to cause less resistance. (Guys like this often are unreasonably worried they'll be "taken to the cleaners" and of course, want the "zipless divorce a la Erica Jong's Fear of Flying).
Reality will hit soon enough. No need to stir him up yet.
Then again, H has been irrational and how can one deal with him rationally and/or logically knowing he'll just go nuts all over again over some perceived slight or omission (or the fact that HaWho decided to wear a pink scarf to work!) Look at the most recent request for financials from the accountant...how did that go down with H??!!
He is untrustworthy and I wouldn't want to put up with the pretense of engaging in an emotional aikido. Just send him that darn letter and let HIM deal with his own emotions. It is all on him. He is as crazy as crazy does.
I too would like to see HaWho leave it to the pros. I told my H from day one, and this is something his crazy head has held onto, he will not talk to me directly once the lawyers are involved. Your brain tells you it adds to the cost, but trust me, keeping the emotions out of this as much as possible and filtering all the communications through the lawyer (of course his lawyer already scares me) can help that happen.
Good luck getting a high valuation on the jewelry. It will likely come down to the cost of the raw materials. What is the price of gold, etc. at the moment. Gifts are gifts. Unless you acknowledged in some writing that the the money was separate property and the property remained separate, I don't see that flying.
If the estate isn't huge, it may not be worth the cost of the forensic accountant. I had a very tight leash monetarily on my H until he moved out, and I have seen his tax statements for last year and he is in the same job, so I have a pretty good handle on that stuff. Forensic accountants can be expensive and even getting to that information can be a bear. He will not likely turn it over voluntarily and you will have to go to third parties with a subpoena during discovery and that gets expensive. Even 25, a lawyer, has not been able to get this kind of info out of her H.
Think about what means the most to you. The beauty of a mediated resolution is that it can take you places a court would not. If money is not as important to you as time with your kids and you are confident of your ability to support them and yourself on what you are likely to get, you may be willing to trade off some time for money. Again, that is an example and you have to think about the things that matter to you.
So glad to see everyone weighing in for you here. It is a measure of the high regard that we all have for you.
Definitely do not discuss the terms, negotiate with him or agree to anything. I'm just suggesting that the first move does not need to be confrontational, but just presented as a win for BOTH by making sure the documents will be valid - THEN once she has a good idea from her own attorney what she can expect from the courts, her lawyer can negotiate for her.
OMG - started crying when I saw the reach out Wonka.
Originally Posted By: HaWho
Thank you all. Special thanks to Wonka for the ready made letter. The only change I'll make? Instead of addressing him as "Mr. Loco," I may go with "Mr. Bean." Man, that letter he wrote was something else.
You got it!! This is what friends are for, right?!
Might want sleep on this for a while....tomorrow will bring some more clarity after you've heard back from your new lawyer. Then maybe you can decide to send out the email to H or not.
BTW HaWho, don't be surprised if he suddenly slows things down after you express your interest in getting it done. 1) Like a game of tug of war, when you drop the rope, he might just fall over.
2) WASs want the "zipless divorce", they're notoriously bad at filling out paperwork like asset disclosure forms etc.
As for a forensic accountant - only if you think a very large amount is to be found. You can simply subpoena all bank accounts and other financial accounts in his name, so unless he owns his own business or has gold bars hidden in his room, a forensic accountant may not be needed.
After reading your comments about "BOTH" winning...I am going to revise the letter a bit. Changes are highlighted in bold.
REVISED DRAFT #2
I wanted to take a moment to collect my thoughts and get back to you.
First of all, I recognize that the marriage has not been working well for some time which greatly saddens me. As you can see, it is not that simple nor is it easy to dissolve a long-term marriage such as ours. When one takes into the consideration the division of assets we have accumulated over the years and the breakdown of the family unit, I have retained the services of my own attorney to advise and assist me in navigating through such a complex process.
From this point and on, it would be helpful that all matters related to the dissolution of the marriage are to be communicated through our own respective attorneys. In this way, the lawyers can collaborate to ensure a mutually satisfactory agreement that benefits everyone within reason. This means that all communications related to the divorce proceedings, division of assets, and other relevant matters are to be handled strictly through our lawyers. This is the best course of action given the highly emotional nature of this process. I know you feel differently and I respect that.
Here is the contact information for my new attorney: XXXX
As for our children, I believe it is important that we continue in our parenting role as we have been doing over the last several months and I wanted to check in with you to keep our lines of communication open on this front as Mom and Dad. It is important that the kids have both of us involved in their lives as co-parents. I know that we both want to be there for them as you know that they are our greatest blessings.
Thanks for your understanding during a challenging time as this is obviously a new territory for all of us in the family which cannot be easy at all.
I want to pay forward some advice here on custody. You are heart broken over losing boys 50% of the time. Well, I think you can get more if you want it.
Stbx initially said because she was a SAHM she would exercise her right to almost all custody. I would get every other weekend. In my panic and depression, I thought this was the law and my lot in life. Then I met my L and started to wake up and got 2x4s here not to accept her proposal. I decided this was the only thing that mattered and told stbx that. I traded off $$$ for time with the kids. I got 50/50...and then I pushed for more. I now get 50/50 overnights plus the right but not obligation to daily time either in the morning or evening when they are with her. I think she sees this as free babysitting...and I got it. So don’t despair. Figure out what you want, how important it is to you, and use your L to negotiate.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving