How a treehouse can cost you your marriage 2

[Clyde]

Oh boy. OK, incoming 2x4 warning

No worries, I'm due for a few!

she became a WAS. You simply cannot talk her out of it, so quit trying.

Slipped again, seemed like the right thing to do at the moment... like I mentioned in the last post, I am starting to realize these convos seemed to be welcomed, so if they are not leading to R, they are just temp checks.

Absolutely the wrong thing to do. Read up on validation, because THAT is what you should be doing. Do you know what you did? You told her that her feelings were WRONG because of X, Y and Z. Your heart was in the right place, you were trying to lift her spirits up but you inadvertently dismissed her feelings in the process. Feelings are NOT EVER wrong, they are what that person is feeling at that moment in time. When a person shares feelings with you then you listen, validate and offer empathy. You don't tell them they are wrong, or reason or plead or explain or give examples. You just listen and validate. She says she feels she has no identity, you tell her "that sounds very frustrating, is that how you feel? I can imagine that must be very difficult to go through." You are not telling her that she has no identity (IE, agreeing with her), you are simply acknowledging her feelings. And THAT is exactly what women want from us. Listen. Understand. Validate. Support.

Priceless advice, while I've read DR several times, and I thought I was doing good validating, I clearly blew it. Time to review.

She said I have no reason not to trust her... she has never and would never cheat on me.

I told her that I know she would not intentionally cheat, but if she was to have to much to drink...

OK so what did you just tell her? She said you have no reason not to trust her and your response is that you don't trust her. How do you think that makes her feel? Because how she feels is everything, it's why you are where you are in your M. How can you change her feelings about you and the M?

I'm going to break down the dynamic of outings w/ the "sister" in its own post... hope this might shed some light on my stance, if not, I'm all ears.

Later I felt frustrated as it confirmed my suspicions as to why she gave up on the M. The first time she BD was after the "sister" was texting her that she needed to "get out of my grip", "don't let him control you" and so forth. Seems like her friends are more important than her family... sad.

I really don't think the sister is your problem. Your W has issues with you and the M and that's why she's a WAS. WAS's like to surround themselves with enablers and that's what her sister is. But if it wasn't her sister it would be someone else- a friend, a coworker, an affair partner. Enablers are pretty easy to find. It's easy to blame the enablers for your sitch but that's not DB'ing either. DB'ing is looking at YOU and seeing what YOU can do differently, and doing that. It's about making YOU the better option, the spouse only a fool would leave.

I hear you, I'm just having a hard time dismissing the text of my W defending me to the friends, proclaiming her love etc... only to have them tell her she was crazy.

[Tread]

Clyde,

I can tell you from experience that yes the friends are a horrible influence. And will hold more sway that you ever will at this point. But you have to ignore it. My W got caught in so much lies from our friends that she just started to alienate them. And they just backed away from her. W circle of friends now include those who cheat in their own relationships. Men who claim they won't judge her, but secretly are trying to sleep with her knowing her morals have gone out the window. And family members with extremely low morals who do the same.

The craziest part is that W talked about these family members like dogs over the years. And now she sought these folks out in unity. If only they had a clue about what she said about them. They would call her a hypocrite and kick her to the curb. But I'll keep all those messages to myself. Truth is WW know who they can and cannot go to to justify their bad decisions.

[Clyde]

It's time to go GAL w/ the kiddos, I'll post later about the previous outings w/ the sister... but to sum it up, they have never been straight forward - always shady circumstances/lies surrounding them... as a matter of fact I can honestly say in the first 10 years of our R the only arguments we had revolved around the "sister" and these outings.

[EastTN]

Priceless advice, while I've read DR several times, and I thought I was doing good validating, I clearly blew it. Time to review.

I'm going to break down the dynamic of outings w/ the "sister" in its own post... hope this might shed some light on my stance, if not, I'm all ears.

You don't have to agree with her, or support the behavior to validate. I think the above is what AS is trying to call you on: you're saying "I'm validating" and then cite an example of you doing the exact opposite.

You will not prove her wrong and she will not have an epiphany that you were right all along, and if she'd just listened to your flawless logic none of this would have happened.

This isn't about her. Not about her enablers. This is about you. That is all you control. NOTHING else.

I've got stuff written in dry erase marker on my bathroom mirror. It's changed half a dozen times over the course of the year. My current list is:

1. Your self worth is NOT defined by other people
2. Stand up for yourself
3. Moral victories ARE NOT victories!
4. By yourself. Always.

Writing #3 was a big deal for me. I'm a know-it-all by nature. I have been since I was a child. I'd kick ass on Jeopardy, unless every category was 18th century french literature. I'm really, really, irritating to debate with, because I have an answer for everything.

Ask me how useful that personality trait was in my marriage. Ask me how useful that was when separating, and I was trying to convince my XW that things weren't so bad. Ask me how useful that was when I was pointing out how bad she was at lying about her affairs, because saying A while doing X, Y, and Z proved A was a lie.

Hence my realization: moral victories are not victories. Being right is not a virtue in and of itself. Being right doesn't GAIN you anything. In this situation, being right actively HARMS your position. You're not winning, you're LOSING, and you're losing EVERY TIME YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH.

So keep it closed. Fight about things that matter, not about things that don't. Fight to improve your life. Don't fight so you can prove a point. I don't mean in your current situation. I mean in your life.

[Tread]

Clyde,

I get where the trust issues come in. If everybody in her inner circle is a cheater and cover for each other. At some point you ask yourself or they covering up for her. Or at least trying to get her to do what they do. Afterall, I doubt they would be too comfortable with her having all this dirt on them and could spill the beans at any point without them having anything on her. But if she hasn't given you a reason to worry, then try to avoid having that discussion with her.

[CT1118]

Clyde,

I'm actually not sorry you are here. My reason for not feeling sorry for you is that I've never been sorry I had to be here. You indicated in one of your posts that you wanted to trust experience of those who have experienced, well sir, my experience from here is that I am a better man because of it, and at 1.4 years since my first post I am still a junior by DB standards.

Next, it took me 2 hours to read all of your writing, so do me a solid and digest what I am about to say, this will be long and I pull no punches, but bear with me as I intend it to meet your stated goals.

You do a good job w you journal and telling your story, but as your sitch gets longer, your signature, well...nice quote, but the sig. really sux. Don't dissuade good advice by not summing up the basic info like age, BD, M, etc. in your sig. After you have cycled out and then come back to help you can drop most of the BS in it, but while running an 'asking for help' thread, hook people up and get that basic s**t out there quickly.

I'm trusting you Clyde, otherwise I've chosen poorly on whom I reply to:

What I’d like to get out of this board is 2 things:

1st - Support and encouragement...many of my friends and family think I’m crazy for wanting to save my marriage at this point, some have even told me they will never talk to me again if we do reconcile…

OK, my view is that the DB board supports you finding your backbone, finding your balls, and finding your logical mind; generally the body parts you were born with and forgot about. Further, the DB board encourages you to change at least one thing, to get a life, and mostly to fight for self; e.g who are you, what do you want, why do you matter to you? At least thats is what I got from it. Family and friends only tend to agree with you or push you to fit the mold of pop culture and 'get tough', 'dump her', 'we'll always be there for you', and other trite s**t like that. Once you find you backbone, balls, and logical mind, I trust you will know what to say to that simple minded misguided turd who said they would never talk to you again if you reconciled...I know I would've suggested that, reconcile or not, they begin not talking to me ever again as soon as possible.

2nd - Advice (yes I understand that includes constructive criticism and welcome it). I’ve been reading this forum for a few months and have learned a lot from it. While I have pursued and tried to fix since the moment the W mentioned D, over the past month and a half I refrained from it more than before, having not once gotten the W to engage other than to tell me what a horrible H I was (some of what she would say had validity, most did not), she finally started to genuinely engage in the conversations over the past week and a half. This threw me for a loop and finally lead me to start the thread as I was not sure whether or not to continue initiating the conversations, along with the family dinners, a.m. tea, etc. as we discussed in an earlier post

To the above, on no. 2, I believe Kaizen & AnotherStander did an excellent job of beating the hell out of you about what you actually did not learn, the good job you hoped you were doing and were not , and yet they did so in a way where the 2x4's were actual empathetic and helpful. We all care about you Clyde and want you to be well. Please take careful note that I said you and mentioned no others. Sir, you are no good to others if you are not good to you first(EastTN's 4 points above)...a great segue for my favorite in your 1st thread (yes, with respect, I did reorder the words to make my point, but changed no words - original from p.8 of your first post):

Reality is all that you have. ...stop teaching her that she can treat you anyway she wants. ...trust that this is who she is now... Model healthy boundaries and enforce them. If you won't enforce them, don't pretend to have them...

I re-ordered 25YMLC because I want you to fully understand something...its about you Clyde, not her, not her friends, not family, but you sir. Its about Clyde learning Clyde. Clyde as a father, Clyde as husband, Clyde as self. How you relate to yourself, and I do believe that is the strongest (additionally sexiest, manliest, father-like, powerful, etc.) thing you can show the world. A presentation of confidence. You have not learned this yet. My illustration of evidence is that just today you mention:

I'm going to break down the dynamic of outings w/ the "sister" in its own post... hope this might shed some light on my stance, if not, I'm all ears.

It doesn't matter, Tread & Gordie already covered above that her friends su*k a bowl of d*cks and so did you for that matter, I don't even recall who mentioned that W is not original, but we get it. She is on script man (and there is a script, please read homework from Cadet and this makes sense). No break down needed. And...

I hear you, I'm just having a hard time dismissing the text of my W defending me to the friends, proclaiming her love etc... only to have them tell her she was crazy.

Wait...you're telling us the "sister's" who want W to hit up the club every night, bang dudes they are not married to, ignore adult responsibility, and generally do who they want/what they want/when they want also think W is crazy for loving the first man she slept with, fell in love with, had children with, because she is having doubts about leaving you?!? Is that even possible?........ Yes, I'm a sarcastic prick, but seriously, re-read yourself and quite having a hard time w that one - there is nothing hard about it.

On validating, you may have read DR "several times", but you definitely did not do the homework that Cadet told you to do on p.1 of your 1st thread. Have you thought to yourself "why does sandi2 and other real old school'ers offer such awesome advice to others, but not to me"? ***<hint>*** do the homework. Read Wonka's "Validation: Cheat Sheet" post, which is the 3rd post on Newcomers, and prove you did so in your actions.

Clyde, You want DB experience? If you are bored with me so far, stick it out through this, I wrote it about my DB in February 2017, it sums up my entire GD experience here and takes us both back to what I began with in my intro:

To fight Hell, you must be prepared to dismantle yourself. You must let go of yourself. You must review your own abuse, shortcomings, faults, and fallibility. You must stare stare fear, anger, and ego in the face each day; sometimes you blink. But if you can acknowledge who you have been, how you got there, and where you want to be, you can develop new strategies. You begin to lovingly detach from the other person, you begin to wake up, you begin to believe in what you can do and what you want as an individual. You begin to see victory on the horizon. You become deliberate in living for you. This is if you make it this far, it is not a fight for the weak of character.

And how does a fight for Hell assist the one you thought you began this fight for? Because the truth of love, real & honest love, is that one must know and love themselves to be mentally and emotionally fit enough to love another. But we marry young or we marry when unresolved of another or we marry wrong. This is a battle that is long, it is painful, and it will deprecate your heart, mind, and soul if you allow it; allow it by spying, allow it by obsession, allow it by convention. But hopefully, in the end, you come out to be the person you never felt brave enough to be. This fight is not "forget and move on" or "forgo and move out" , this is something new, this is...Forgive and become - become of one's self.

Damage was done, but dmn if you can't grow, you can't accept, and you can't be. You can. The love of your life looks like you and you alone. You gotta get you first before you get to others. Only then will you present a package that others can be proud of and proud to stand beside. You do this and victory looks like daylight, Hell is in retreat. The Fight For Self is absolution. You gotta be all in for the fight for you, you do this and you are free, oh so free. Now get some you.

I wish you a peaceful sleep tonight sir.
-CT118

[Clyde]

My W got caught in so much lies from our friends that she just started to alienate them.
W circle of friends now include those who cheat in their own relationships.
And family members with extremely low morals who do the same.

The craziest part is that W talked about these family members like dogs over the years. And now she sought these folks out in unity. If only they had a clue about what she said about them. They would call her a hypocrite and kick her to the curb.

Sounds like we are M to the same woman. Further proof if what CT118 said and the point you and Gordie are making... "she is on a script"

I long for the days the W and I were on the same page... when sanity was the norm, when she and I were one another's insulation from the madness of todays society.

[Matrix]

Clyde,

I don't post much around here these days. But I will say that CT is one of my favorite posters on this board. I followed his sitch from the start when I first got on this forum. I was actually sorry to see the "D: Mar '17" on his signature. If there was any damn person on this board that was going to bust his divorce, it was going to be CT. He had a long and hard journey and I watched him get stronger and stronger with every post he made. He fully found his balls and himself again.

Read his words very carefully and really take in what he in what he is saying.

CT made a post on Christmas Eve of 2016 that might have changed my life. I remember reading it that night as I sat alone in dead silence, on Christmas Eve for the first time in 15 years. His post really got to me and gave me a new perspective on this whole f-cking thing. Check it out and give it a read when you have time. Then read it again and again and again.

CT did include some of that post in his comments above, but here is the link to the whole post.


http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...797#Post2722797

[Gordie]

Clyde,

It’s okay to long for those days. You are grieving the loss of your marriage, the woman you married, and the future you thought was yours. Go through all your stages of grief...and when you are ready, you’ll start to accept this death, let go and move on...and when that longing comes back...make space to grieve again.

[Clyde]

it took me 2 hours to read all of your writing, so do me a solid and digest what I am about to say, this will be long and I pull no punches, but bear with me as I intend it to meet your stated goals.

Wow, I knew the thread was getting long... you took 2 hours out of your day to read it and then put together a response. Very humbling, I can't thank all of you enough for your support, advice and genuine caring.

...your signature, sum up the basic info like age, BD, M, etc. in your sig. After you have cycled out and then come back to help you can drop most of the BS in it, but while running an 'asking for help' thread, hook people up and get that basic s**t out there quickly.

Good point... done

Family and friends only tend to agree with you or push you to fit the mold of pop culture and 'get tough', 'dump her', 'we'll always be there for you', and other trite s**t like that.
I trust you will know what to say to that simple minded misguided turd who said they would never talk to you again if you reconciled...I know I would've suggested that, reconcile or not, they begin not talking to me ever again as soon as possible.

This one has not been hard, and while I did not come out and say it that blatantly, I made it clear my intentions... she is still my W, we are a family. And it has cost some R's... and while it is disappointing, my thoughts are - you don't know till you have walked in these shoes.

you are no good to others if you are not good to you first

I am figuring this out in all facets of my life, but nowhere has it become more evident to me than in my interactions w/ the kids, for example: Today I took them to their favorite pizza place, (first time going there w/out the W) I was struggling not to let past memories interfere w/ my mood and in turn, the opportunity to make new memories. There was definitely some acting "as if" going on. This is not fair for the kids or myself. I guess there is a fine line between mourning the loss of R, and letting someone have control over you.

...its about you Clyde, not her, not her friends, not family, but you sir. Its about Clyde learning Clyde. Clyde as a father, Clyde as husband, Clyde as self. How you relate to yourself, and I do believe that is the strongest (additionally sexiest, manliest, father-like, powerful, etc.) thing you can show the world. A presentation of confidence. You have not learned this yet. My illustration of evidence is that just today you mention:

[quote=Clyde] I'm going to break down the dynamic of outings w/ the "sister" in its own post... hope this might shed some light on my stance, if not, I'm all ears.

Sorry if I am being hard headed on this one... I have spent a lot of the reflecting and trying to make sure I am comprehending your guys advice.

I get what you are saying about the best me, and you are right, I have not learned this yet, and that needs to be priority. I get that at this point the only thing I can control is me (however I do slip on this one many a times).

In my last series of post, I brought the "sister" and outings up not so much as to blame for where we are, but to get advice on how to address this issue if we truly start to piece, as our last convo she made it sound like that was her ultimatum for the MR, I see how ending the one post by saying "she blew up our family over this!" completely undermined what I was setting out to achieve.

My reason for feeling the need to elaborate on these outings is that some have said I am being controlling (and I can see why they might think that without further elaboration) before the M went haywire, she broke the trust several times regarding these outings... do I lie and say I trust her? Or is this where the healthy boundaries come in.

It doesn't matter, Tread & Gordie already covered above that her friends su*k a bowl of d*cks and so did you for that matter, I don't even recall who mentioned that W is not original, but we get it. She is on script man

Yes I completely agree, right now she is on a script, she is a WAW, clearly she is going to do what she wants no matter how it affects the M... I completely avoid asking/inquiring into what she is up to lately.

On validating, you may have read DR "several times", but you definitely did not do the homework that Cadet told you to do on p.1 of your 1st thread. Have you thought to yourself "why does sandi2 and other real old school'ers offer such awesome advice to others, but not to me"? ***<hint>*** do the homework. Read Wonka's "Validation: Cheat Sheet" post, which is the 3rd post on Newcomers, and prove you did so in your actions.

Reading and doing homework are clearly two different things, I have several of these printed out (Wonka's "Validation: Cheat Sheet", Sandi's 37 rules, and several others). Time to re-read, go over the homework, and look at tomorrow as another opportunity to take the test again.

Ct118, your "February 2017 sum up of your entire GD experience" has been added to a handwritten notebook I have full of things I have grabbed from this forum... thanks for sharing that, along with all the advice and knowledge.