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SKM,

I’m no vet so am not going to try to offer advice but just wanted to note about the rings. My w is sometimes wearing her ring now and I have asked myself if i should start wearing mine and right now my answer is no. We aren’t piecing or working on our relationship or even sleeping in the same bed.

Peace.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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I would like input from others on what I am going to tell you because I feel I am going to be a little bit harsh. I want to apologize in advance but I am quite worried by what you described.

First: The total lack of affection or gestures of affection is really something alarming, it's raising a BIG red flag on his motivations why he is with you right now. You need to dig on that question. Having difficulties being with intimacy while piecing is somehow common for some but a total lack of affection is the sign of something really serious.

Second: Also, his ambivalence/reticence/refusal to let go his very borderline flirty behavior/relationship with women is really troubling, it sends the message (at least from my perspective) that he is not ready at all to change that very bad habit and he doesn't care about YOU. Do you think he might be "craving" that kind of attention from them to feed some "narcissist" needs. Please read about what are the personality traits of a narcissist and how they manipulate back and forth people to stay in control/power, and see if it applies to him or not. I don't want to imply that he has one but it looks like one.

Third: His passive aggressive behavior in regard of your offer to pay for MC suggests he doesn't want at all to get one, because he doesn't want to have to reflect on his actions in front of someone who will be listening to your side of the story too. So the best for him is to avoid it at all cost, because somehow he knows he might end to look like a villain, which he is: a guy who cheated on his wife and who is still somehow blaming her for it, while not really putting any effort to change his own behavior. That's not good for his image and it doesn't want YOU to gain the upper hand which goes against his own interest, he wants you to keep waiting while refraining yourself to ask any questions or come up with demands, now the question is WHY?

The program he has been following about "working on himself", fits his needs because it's a one way self analysis without the input of someone.

Fourth: his rhetoric about wearing his wedding ring (+ you buying a new one for him) while not having any gesture of affection or being considerate of your triggers smells highly suspicious/plain manipulation. I applaud the answer you gave him.

In my opinion, right now he is not piecing with you, he is up to something.

Now my last question is a tough one: men usually don't leave until they have a plan B, they keep going with what is convenient for the moment until that plan B is set up and ready to go. Do you think he might be stringing you along because of whatever reason?

I am very sorry for all the 4"X4" I wrote. Knowledge is power.
Also, read again the article about pursuer and pursuit...


Me 52+ WH 57+
Married 20 +
Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
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Hey all.......sorry for the delayed response. I worked five 12 hour shifts in a row, and when I work like that I don't have time for anything but sleep and work. I am in the middle of 4 days off and decided to pack up the car and take the dogs for a short trip to the beach.

Skyhigh......as always, thank you for replying and making me think about things. No need for the apology for the 2X4s or 4x4s......I honestly didn't feel that what you were saying was harsh.

Gordie.....thanks for your thoughts on the wedding ring issue.

Things between H and I have gotten worse. It has been 10 days and we have not spoken to each other.......we are living in the same house. When I found those text messages I was pretty upset and moved into the spare room and have been there since. He has not made any attempt to speak to me about those texts, or why he felt it necessary to keep them on his phone. Or, for that matter, apologize to me for lying about the relationship he had with this person.

On a few of the mornings I was getting ready for work and was also trying to make myself breakfast....not a big breakfast person but some of the mornings I was starving because I didn't get to eat dinner the night before. Anywho......when breakfast was ready H would bring it to me. Now, why would he do that if he wasn't speaking to me? A few other times I would come home from work to find my bed had been made by H. Again, why would he do this, but not speak to me? One night I was at work pretty late and he texted to ask me if I was okay. Again, we were not speaking to each other so why is he asking? He has since stopped bringing my breakfast, stopped making the bed and I was at work late again one night and he didn't check on me. WEIRD?????

Yes, the lack of affection is something that makes me ask myself "why did he ask me to move back in with him if he wasn't ready to give of himself in that way?" When I first moved in with him we were intimate, we were both trying hard to make sure that we took things slowly, but then we had a pretty big disagreement about his parents and my lack of wanting a relationship with them and that is when he started withholding affection toward me.......things have not been the same since. Maybe he thinks I can be his plan B......WRONG!!!!!

His "friendships" with women is something that bothers me. He is aware how I feel about that, but he doesn't see anything wrong with it. Why he feels like he needs to continue these type of relationships when he knows how I feel about them is something that screams ...... "I don't care about you and how you feel." He is someone who needs A LOT of praise and I guess he isn't going to get that from a male, so he reaches out towards women. I'm sure that screams something about his childhood, or "mommy" issues. He will have to figure that out for himself.

I do think his lack of following through with finding a counselor has something to do with the fact that he will have someone asking him tough questions. He might feel challenged and not want to answer those type of questions. Right now the Landmark program is a one way self analysis. He does not verbally participate at his Landmark meetings......he only listens (this is what he has told me).

So, I continue on. I will be heading home tomorrow. I have not heard anything from H while we (myself and the dogs) have been gone. I did not expect to hear from him, so it isn't surprising that I haven't.

I plan on stopping and seeing a good friend on the way home who I haven't seen in a while, so that will be nice.

One day at a time........

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Hey SKM, sorry things still sound to be a bit tough between you and H.

I agree I do not think you are piecing but I think he does especially as he mentions about the wedding rings. Remember he has not had as much advice as you have on what piecing should look like. How can you get him to be on the same page? I'm not sure how I would do it if it as me!

I think you both sound like such sensitive souls. As soon as you feel you have been hurt you both retreat into your shell and wait it out until someone makes a move. You ask why he was bringing your breakfast, making your bed and texting you even if he wasn't talking to you but do you think that was his way of trying to make amends?

However I agree the issue with the female friend is a problem that needs addressing but it's not going to be whilst you both circle around each other. I'm not sure seeing a therapist at this stage is going to help if you are not officially piecing although I think that maybe you both need to have some fun with each other and try and relax a bit!

(((SKM)))


Me - 47
H - 45
D-16
M - 6 years
Separated - May 16

Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
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Hey Coly.....thanks for the response smile Hope the 10K training is going well.

You are absolutely right....we are NOT piecing. These boards have taught me so much about how to handle and how NOT to handle situations.....thank goodness. Piecing will require both of us to be in the mind set that we are ready to work on things together. I am not sure if I am ready to do that yet.

When I got home from the beach, H was not home....honestly that was just fine with me. I was unpacking the dogs and the car when I saw his truck coming down the street. I guess he didn't see me in the garage, but I saw him turn around in the street and started going in the opposite direction away from the house.......weird. I waited about 45 minutes and he didn't come back. So, I called him and said "what are you doing, and why did you turn around"............I think he was shocked when I asked him that. His response was "I was not expecting you to be home and I was not ready to see you or speak to you." I offered to pack the dogs back up and my stuff and leave the house so he could come home, but he didn't want that. He asked if I would stay there and he would turn around and we could talk.

We spoke for a long time. He apologized for not speaking to me for all of those days, and said he doesn't know why he acts like that. I told him that we both acted childish during that time, and we both were being stubborn. We spoke about many other things and he agreed to be more open with his communicating. Time will tell.......

Things are a little better, we are speaking more and having daily interaction. But, I am still sleeping in the spare bedroom. I have just finished another long stretch of days at work, so now I will have two days off to rest before heading back.

H continues to deal with feelings and emotions, but has a LONG way to go. He has done the Landmark program, and has also been attending other Landmark sponsored "therapies" ... but as Skyhigh mentioned in an earlier post to me, it is a one sided self analysis. Now, it is definitely better then nothing, but I would like to see him do some IC as well.

H went to church on Easter (I of course was working), but when I got home that night he was discussing the sermon. He said he felt like after hearing the sermon that he was ready to "forgive himself" for what he did, and how he behaved before, during and after the A. I was a bit shocked when I heard him say that. I am not sure if it was because I felt like he should not be the one forgiving himself......I should. I also don't want him to think that he can just forget what he did......but when I think about it, I am not sure if he will ever be able to forgot about what he did because he has to look at me and that is a daily reminder.

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SKM,

Your H is a conflict avoider. It asks one to know one. It’s easier for him to bring you breakfast or make your bed than to actually talk to you. I bet his love language is acts of service. He is probably trying to show you he cares about you.

But then you don’t respond positively and he says to himself (warning: mind reading), SKM is so ungrateful and it doesn’t make a damn difference if I am trying to make this work, so I’m just going to give up. Thank God she went away for a few days. I can have some peace and quiet. Oh shoot, there she is in the driveway earlier that I expected! Quick u turn. Not ready to deal with her. What do I even say at this point?

How do you deal with a man like this? Who doesn’t know how to say he is sorry? How to be able to discuss difficult things without getting flustered or running away? First, do not initiate R talks. He is still processing things.

Self forgiveness is a good sign but totally get what you are saying. Why isn’t he apologizing and asking you to forgive him? I don’t know. Hopefully he gets there in time but it’s out of your control.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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Hey Skm,

I feel your H is really putting forth some effort to understand himself and try to figure out how to reconnect/ show he cares/ make amends. Please Google "bids for affection" and see if it makes sense.

When you ask, "why would he do this if he's not speaking to me/ we are not speaking to each other?" I wonder what type of response you are giving him when he does these things? Are you gracious? Appreciative? I see that you've said he still has friendships and flirty behavior with women. Is it possible that he just really enjoys getting positive attention from women because he needs it to feel wanted, masculine, appreciated as a man? If this could be so, I hope his "bids" for affection from you are met with sincere and welcoming appreciation. I haven't seen anything in DB or anything else that doesn't call for that. And nothing will cause someone to give up more than feeling un-appreciated...it plays into the need to belong and be accepted, and without that a person can feel lonely and worthless.

Guilt, by the way, is really strong with your H. Yes, you can forgive your H all you want for his behavior, but he has to be able to forgive himself first and foremost to feel worthy of being loved by another, especially someone he loves and cares about. Without forgiving himself, anything positive from you will feel false to him, even if he is hopeful. He needs to be able to feel safe and secure, to trust that he can really open up, most likely. When he can finally forgive himself, then he may be a bit more able to talk at appropriate times and in a more real way. I'm sure his being "not ready" when you got home was due to really strong emotion. He probably has to prepare himself to be around you right now. Emotions are such powerful,confusing, but very basic parts of our being. That was such a perfect "flight" instinct in operation. He does not feel safe yet.

As confusing as this is, this is on him. He does need to forgive himself. But you need to feel safe to him, too. That's why we need to be working on ourselves. Are you still bringing up the affair and reminding him that he hurt you? Trust me; he knows. Bringing it up over and over...well, my own XH would say, "stop beating me up!" That's exactly what I was doing. Stop it, if you are. At this point, its done. He knows he hurt you. He's ashamed, even if he hasn't apologized or doesn't "get it". If you get to a point where you really are piecing, only bring it up with an IC (preferably a therapist that you work through issues and histories with, not just someone giving "advice").

We as LBS need to understand our own emotions, especially anger. Obviously your anger is from his behaviour...on the surface. But what is even deeper below that anger? What is the source...how does it make you really feel? This is something to work through with an IC. This is the you working on you part. This is how you can be ready to "be the lighthouse" in that story. Otherwise, you're just hiding the rocks that he will wash up against. Right now, that might be his suspicion, and his fear. Even though his actions are showing that he hopes sometime to see you guiding him home to safety.


M-51 H-54
2D-27 and 25
M-26 yrs
Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15
He moved out 10-3-15
D filed 1-27-16
D final 10-27-16

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Gordie........you hit the nail on the head!!! H is totally a conflict avoider, and his love language is "acts of service." I can remember a conversation we had years before BD about his wanting to do things for me and my response was "I don't NEED you do do that for me" and he would say "I know you don't NEED me to do it for you but I WANT to do it for you." That is a difficult thing for me to do......allow him to help me. I am slowly seeing that this is how he shows how he cares for me.

I did not get married until I was 38 years old (my first marriage). I was educated, had a good job, made good money and was financially secure when I met my H. NOW.....all of a sudden, after all these years of doing everything for myself, I am supposed to LET someone do things for me........this was/is a very foreign concept for me.

H would ask me if I needed help, or could he bring me dinner at work, or help me carry groceries in or things of that nature and my first response was "nope, I'm good. " So I know that after a while he stopped asking or doing. So, when he found someone (OW) who was "so helpless" he latched onto her quick.

I have stopped initiating any kind of R talks with him. I just don't have it in me to do it anymore. Now, is this something that will pass......not sure.

Ciluzen........thank you so much for everything you said.

I googled "bids for affection" and it totally made sense. I have read several articles by John Gottman, and I like his approach to marital issues. Before BD, H and I were actually seeing an MC. She was a Gottman trained therapist. I really liked her, and thought she was slowly helping us with our issues. Little did we (myself or her) know that H was cheating at that time and was not being honest during our sessions.

I agree that H is making efforts to make himself better. I will honestly say that I am not a fan of the method he has chosen (Landmark) but like I have mentioned before, it is better then him not trying at all.

I totally agree with you about H needing positive attention from women because it makes him feel wanted or masculine. I am fiercely independent, and I am certain that comes across very clear in my interactions with H. And, my job requires me to make life saving decisions, and without hesitation, so many of my decisions at home are made without hesitation or input from H....... and there is no doubt that is intimidating to him. And, not to mention, doesn't make him feel like he is valued.

He has said that he has guilt, but it doesn't have as much of an impact on things like it used to. That was hard for me to hear, On one hand I don't want him to live his life with guilt controlling his life or choices, but I also don't want him to ever forget what he did to me and our M.

I know I still have anger about what he did, and I'm sure there is a part of me that doesn't want to let that go because then it is like he gets a pass for what he did, but....I am working on letting that go daily. I don't raise my voice, or have rage anymore when he says something that upsets me.......I just don't have it in me to be that way anymore.

I used to bring up the A to try and punish him, but I saw that it really didn't help things. Now if we are talking about things sometimes one of us will bring it up, but it is not done in a way to bring up hurtful memories, although it still does for me.

I know he is still a work in progress. There are days that I am so ready to give up on all of this because I don't know if I will ever be able to trust him again. And, sometimes I feel like why does he even deserve to be given a second chance.

So, I keep working on me.........

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SKM,

I hear you, especially that last paragraph. Yes, there are the days I want to give up. And why does he/she deserve a second chance? Here’s what I believe. I believe you are giving him a second chance out of your own free will. He/she cannot do anything to earn/deserve it. It’s a choice you are making. You have the power to do that because you do control you.


Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids
2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong
2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2
2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
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SKM,
I'm glad you are working on you. We and our situations are very similar. I, too, liked Gottman for communication issues and a surface understanding. Very task oriented. But it doesn't really help with anger or underlying emotion very well, I'm finding.

I only mentioned bids for affection because I noticed those in your post and wanted to know if you realized that he was putting forth an effort, or how much that effort means. I was confused by why my XH would not let go even though he rushed through the separation to D process; and why he still reaches out even now. I also am someone who is proud of my abilities to get stuff done. I even tried to do his stuff when I saw him stressing over it. I never realized how emasculating it can be to take on everything for someone and tell them it was "no problem" when they were feeling overwhelmed. I thought I was being loving and caring, but he was feeling less and less worth. He decided I didn't need him, so he told me he didn't need me. Communication issues.

Beyond that, though, is those emotions that underly our actions. Why does betrayal make us so angry? Why would someone do something they knew was so wrong and would make someone they cared about so angry? Is it because they're just selfish? Or is it a need not being met? What's behind that need? My eye opener with XH was learning EFT (not the "tapping" thing).Most of what lies behind this type of relationship issue is fear of being not worthy, fear of being left, and fear of being unloveable. How are most men taught to be worthy? By doing things for their woman, providing for her, and protecting her.If she can do it all, is he necessary? The other side of that is, why do we feel it necessary to do it all? What were we taught, by whom, that made it so important to take on the world? What do we really want? What about our H's choosing another is bothering us the most? Are we just angry? Is there hurt behind the anger? What is the hurt coming from and what fear does that touch on in us? Anyway, I found the ideas interesting, but definitely one to do in couples therapy...you need that trained third person buffer. The concepts, though, are helpful on your own and work well with DB.

The idea of pursuer and distancer are also broken down further into "burnt-out pursuer" and a former distancer then reacting by becoming a "pursuer-blamer". I saw my XH as a distancer...but realized he pursued me hard before and I just enjoyed it. After awhile, he burnt out and withdrew. Then I started to pursue him, but with confusion and anger...hence the blamer response. That viewpoint alone shifted my way of seeing our relationship to the point where I had to share it with XH in an apology. Back to the first big wound I could remember seeing, but not fully understanding at the time. His reaction, when I apologized and explained was...amazing. A game changer. Relief? Release? He finally felt understood. And that's what we all want from our "other". The feeling of support and not being alone. We seem to just misinterpret actions and efforts when our biases and inability to see past what our experiences in life have formed as truth in our minds (our point of view) get in the way. At least for that instance. So, yes. Very happy with the deeper work of EFT.

Quote:
He has said that he has guilt, but it doesn't have as much of an impact on things like it used to. That was hard for me to hear, On one hand I don't want him to live his life with guilt controlling his life or choices, but I also don't want him to ever forget what he did to me and our M.

I know I still have anger about what he did, and I'm sure there is a part of me that doesn't want to let that go because then it is like he gets a pass for what he did, but....I am working on letting that go daily. I don't raise my voice, or have rage anymore when he says something that upsets me.......I just don't have it in me to be that way anymore.



Be careful of what you think you hear. Remember, you are biased and angry and have had a whole different set of experiences in your life shaping your point of view. Are you sure that his saying his guilt 'doesn't have an impact on things like it used to" means the same to him as you are interpreting it? That's a wide open statement, really.

I highlighted these things because, although I see you acknowledge your anger, you also appear to really want to punish him. First, I bet his guilt is strong enough to be his punishment. He may hide a portion of it because there is shame as well, but his bids are like putting his hand out and his head down in supplication.

Second, if you can't really find an understanding and find a way to get past the anger and need to hurt him back (what punishment is), you both lose. And he'll just look for that "acceptance" and verification of worth through others again. This dynamic has created a lack of trust for both of you. You are angry and don't trust him to hurt you again; he doesn't trust you not to punish him or hurt him in the way he possibly felt hurt before drifting. That trust won't happen unless you can go deep and understand each other's motivations. Deep seated stuff.

The fact that you don't raise your voice or rage at him means you are getting very good at controlling
your anger, which takes a huge effort and is exhausting, but your anger is still there. If it is there, it will come out in some way, shape, or form. If you're familiar with bids, are you familiar with the four horsemen? That's "seepage". Uncover the anger and pick it apart. Its hurt and it most likely comes from am even deeper emotional need.

I'm in your corner, SKM. I get that anger and need to punish. But what do you really want? If you really want him back, how much glass are you really willing to walk through? You'll need that third person to keep it safe, because trust-work gets worse before it gets better. The fact that he's still there and working speaks volumes. And patience...working on your own stuff first can also ease the process. Its "MLC", or by any other name...its a process. And as MWD has stated, a really long road. I personally kinda hope there's more than just ice cream and cake at the end of it.


M-51 H-54
2D-27 and 25
M-26 yrs
Bombshell and IHS 7-29-15
He moved out 10-3-15
D filed 1-27-16
D final 10-27-16

Kindness, kindness, kindness.
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