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Last evening before we leave for vacation.

My happiness (I'm kind of too happy about vacay to be mean to)and being a little bit conversational (as opposed to saying nothing) has had the effect of her talking more also. She did talk to me about a few things that weren't "business" related, and really personal. So this actually meets a goal, and I think I came close to the goal not to kid her. I failed the goal, but I don't think I made her angry with the kidding....

The other edge to the conversational sword is it gives more opportunity for her just under the surface anger towards me to come out, and it has a few times. No big blow ups, but I did respond to her statement made out of frustration about me sleeping in the basement with "That's not happening." These little disagreements are very much in the pattern of the old R, but now I'm putting up with very little BS. I do need to stay zen, and I need to seem more interested when her stories get dumb wink

The only negative? of being so excited, is sometimes I want to give her a hug. I feel like it is out of habit possibly?

She was supposed to work on her resume Monday, but that didn't happen. Seemingly the fault of the other party, but with W there is always an excuse.

On tugging on my heartstrings front. The boys have been so cute lately in "family" ways. Ways that won't be the same when we split. Family is a big deal to them. They have friends, but no best buds.

Both my boys jumped on my lap, "Daddy!" I told them that they were the two things that made me happy, then my eldest brings up "What about mommy?" confused At least they don't know what is happening yet!


M: 41 W: 41
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Originally Posted By: Kylo

Finally, as if to remind me what I am "missing": I used to ask the W to trim the hair on my neck with clippers. It was like pulling teeth. She would make every excuse not to. She would do everything else instead, then when it finally happened she would complain. This was a 2 minute operation BTW. So a few days ago she said she would help me with it this weekend, instead of me paying someone. Didn't happen, no big deal. I ask about it tonight, she says OK. Of course she stays with both kids at bedtime until late, doesn't mention it and crawls into bed. Just funny at this point, I'm not going to say anything. I know, this is bad DB, I just can't stand wasting $$.


Oh boy. OK, so here's something your W clearly does not like to do, and do you blame her? Do you ask her to trim your fingernails and nose hair too? But you basically made her do it. And now you're having marital problems, but.... you're STILL trying to make her do it? WHY???? Go buy yourself a hand mirror. Put shaving cream on your neck up to your hair line. Turn your back to the sink. Hold up the hand mirror and look at your reflection in the main mirror and shave your own freakin' neck. It takes a little practice to get the hang of it because your hand is moving the opposite of the reflection you're looking at, but it can be done. Quit depending on your W for stuff like this!


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Please listen to AS.

It's not something she finds attractive, obviously. And it's not enhancing any feeling of attraction.

Spend the money & look your best. This is a no brainer.

Otherwise what you are really doing is imposing your needs onto her, even when she has made her distaste quite evident.

Sorry to say, (really). But you are not the victim here.

The good news is that you are empowered to change this.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
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DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

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Originally Posted By: Kylo
Last evening before we leave for vacation.

My happiness (I'm kind of too happy about vacay to be mean to)and being a little bit conversational (as opposed to saying nothing) has had the effect of her talking more also. She did talk to me about a few things that weren't "business" related, and really personal. So this actually meets a goal, and I think I came close to the goal not to kid her. I failed the goal, but I don't think I made her angry with the kidding....


"kidding" that even risks making the other person angry (which usually covers the hurt) is not humor.

It's insulting or degrading in some way, to them. And it is done without you owning it, under the guise of "kidding."

Even if it were witty, it's at her expense. Stop it.


The other edge to the conversational sword is it gives more opportunity for her just under the surface anger towards me to come out, and it has a few times.

what is the upside to arousing her anger?

No big blow ups, but I did respond to her statement made out of frustration about me sleeping in the basement with "That's not happening." These little disagreements are very much in the pattern of the old R, but now I'm putting up with very little BS. I do need to stay zen, and I need to seem more interested when her stories get dumb wink


Do you like your w?

-

She was supposed to work on her resume Monday, but that didn't happen. Seemingly the fault of the other party, but with W there is always an excuse.

Again, do you like your w? You sound quite critical of her, which is why I ask.


On tugging on my heartstrings front. The boys have been so cute lately in "family" ways. Ways that won't be the same when we split. Family is a big deal to them. They have friends, but no best buds.

Both my boys jumped on my lap, "Daddy!" I told them that they were the two things that made me happy, then my eldest brings up "What about mommy?" confused At least they don't know what is happening yet!


what was the goal of saying that? Why not just say you love being with them?


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,511
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I read back your whole thread to get to this point just in case I misconstrued your words. I don't think I have.

Through out your thread here there are numerous pejoratives attached to your wife, a lot of "she's so crazy" implications.

The only thing you seem to want to work on, in you, is your tactical approach. Oh, and for you to stop needling her, which for some reason you believe is hilarious even when it's obvious it hurts her and the marriage. That is on you. (Which is good news in a way, b/c you can actually do something about it. No more helplessness).

The dynamic you have, (and maybe it's both of you), is to use passive aggressive snarky insults under the guise of "just joking!" That seems to substitute for true conversations, unless you have those too, and just don't tell us.

From what I can tell, you don't seem to think it's mean spirited or unhealthy.

You do some manipulative things as well, but I don't want to go point by point.(The comment to your boys about how they (and they alone) are THE 2 (and only 2) things that make you happy is so transparent, I'm surprised you don't see it. I get the feeling you are blaming your w again, for damage to come. And you don't think you are playing a role in this at all. But you are.

Just wondering if maybe some of the labels you attach to her, really help you at all.

Seems to me she's had enough of the nasty critical commentary and you don't know another way to communicate. That is a fundamental problem, and an unloving dynamic. And it can be changed.

But you are the broken piece that is not getting needed repairs. That is partly b/c you are too busy pointing out how your "MLC/BPD Wife" is the broken rusty fundamentally flawed, poorly designed wrench in the engine.

I think you really do want the marital dynamic to change. I suggest you Stop working on changing her. Change you.

And see this^^^ as the gift of empowerment, that it is. This is not hopeless, far from it. But work on what you can control - you - and look in the mirror for some of the issues in the m.

What kind of relationships did you have with your siblings growing up? And your parents? How was forgiveness modeled?

Were there many compliments given? And how were those compliments, if any, received? A gracious "thank you" or a dismissive redirection or what?

Dig deep.

If you really want your m to work, there are some fundamental changes you can make that will improve all of Your r's in life.

Do you live on the west coast or east? There are workshops that can help you with this. I think their continuity (a few days in a row, as opposed to weekly therapy) can help you see the path of your comments BEFORE you make them. Learn new positive loving ways to communicate and establish healthy boundaries without tearing anyone else down.

If you are witty, there are ways to enjoy a good sense of humor and laughter is incredibly bonding.

Learn to replace the pattern of "zingers!" into a healthier kinder more loving relationship.

I happen to believe your w wants that^^^. I don't think she's crazy or selfish. Or at least not in an extreme way. At least not from what I'm reading in these posts.


I think she craves intimacy without all the jabs. Those comments eat away at our self esteem until we become people we never wanted to become. Angry, defensive, over reactive. Clearly those are protective tools.

People can change. You can learn to reframe your commentary and negative views of her - which set you up for jabbing her and sets her up overreact, (& then you point out her reaction to your innocent "kidding" to justify your negative perceptions of her.)

AND Then, Rinse, repeat.

What are you doing to change how You interact with her? And to see your motivations?

Also I hope you won't make anymore remarks to your kids which are thinly veiled jabs at your wife. It really is not good for them. And they are learning how to treat their future wives, from you. Think about that.

Hang in there, you can change the course of this ship if you truly truly want to.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 119
K
Kylo Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: Kylo
Last evening before we leave for vacation.

My happiness (I'm kind of too happy about vacay to be mean to)and being a little bit conversational (as opposed to saying nothing) has had the effect of her talking more also. She did talk to me about a few things that weren't "business" related, and really personal. So this actually meets a goal, and I think I came close to the goal not to kid her. I failed the goal, but I don't think I made her angry with the kidding....


"kidding" that even risks making the other person angry (which usually covers the hurt) is not humor.

It's insulting or degrading in some way, to them. And it is done without you owning it, under the guise of "kidding."

Even if it were witty, it's at her expense. Stop it.


I'm going to assume you weren't being clear here. Most humor could be offensive to someone. I understand this is good advice to not make your W unhappy, as I mentioned earlier. I'm not going to go so far as to agree that any comment is inappropriate if the other person deems it so. When taken to far, this line of reasoning makes no sense.

The other edge to the conversational sword is it gives more opportunity for her just under the surface anger towards me to come out, and it has a few times.

what is the upside to arousing her anger?

It is the other side of the sword. The double edged sword? There is no upside. It is the negative result of this approach.

No big blow ups, but I did respond to her statement made out of frustration about me sleeping in the basement with "That's not happening." These little disagreements are very much in the pattern of the old R, but now I'm putting up with very little BS. I do need to stay zen, and I need to seem more interested when her stories get dumb wink


Do you like your w?

-

She was supposed to work on her resume Monday, but that didn't happen. Seemingly the fault of the other party, but with W there is always an excuse.

Again, do you like your w? You sound quite critical of her, which is why I ask.


Like I've mentioned before: I like her when she can be friendly, but I don't like her when she is cold and bishy. Lately, no, I have not liked her.

On tugging on my heartstrings front. The boys have been so cute lately in "family" ways. Ways that won't be the same when we split. Family is a big deal to them. They have friends, but no best buds.

Both my boys jumped on my lap, "Daddy!" I told them that they were the two things that made me happy, then my eldest brings up "What about mommy?" confused At least they don't know what is happening yet!


what was the goal of saying that? Why not just say you love being with them?


I have a very long version, and a long version. Here is the long version: Years ago I told my S9 that he made me happy, and he perked up, "Really?" he said. I've been saying it to them ever since. This was all pre-BD. I say this to them because it is true. Why don't I just say I love being with them? Because I could say that to anyone. It isn't special. But I couldn't say to anyone else what I say to them. They need to be reminded of their value with the upcoming D. I was confident and knew my self worth as a teen and it kept me out of all kinds of bad and extremely tempting situations. S9 struggles with his worth and needs to know that someone thinks the world of him.

I ended that convo with my son with "And mommy too" Even though that was a complete lie.


M: 41 W: 41
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Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I read back your whole thread to get to this point just in case I misconstrued your words. I don't think I have.

Through out your thread here there are numerous pejoratives attached to your wife, a lot of "she's so crazy" implications.

The only thing you seem to want to work on, in you, is your tactical approach. Oh, and for you to stop needling her, which for some reason you believe is hilarious even when it's obvious it hurts her and the marriage. That is on you. (Which is good news in a way, b/c you can actually do something about it. No more helplessness).

The dynamic you have, (and maybe it's both of you), is to use passive aggressive snarky insults under the guise of "just joking!" That seems to substitute for true conversations, unless you have those too, and just don't tell us.

I've mentioned we don't really talk. We did argue about our problems in the M. She was never wrong, and didn't change anything. I realize now that my possibly passive/aggressive comments would come out. For a long time I didn't even know what passive/aggressive really meant, and still don't have a great handle on the term. I look it up and it points to a list of things I didn't do, and actually she is doing almost all of them now, but whatever. I know I would make some sort of comment to her, borne out of frustration, and not be fully aware of what I was doing.

From what I can tell, you don't seem to think it's mean spirited or unhealthy.

You do some manipulative things as well, but I don't want to go point by point.(The comment to your boys about how they (and they alone) are THE 2 (and only 2) things that make you happy is so transparent, I'm surprised you don't see it. I get the feeling you are blaming your w again, for damage to come. And you don't think you are playing a role in this at all. But you are.

I addressed the comments to the boys in the earlier thread.

Just wondering if maybe some of the labels you attach to her, really help you at all.

One of my goals of these posts was to find someone with experience in a similar BPD traits situation, or at least leave a trail for someone in my position down the road. I also hoped to learn what my chances were. You may think my comments are hyperbole, but they're not.

Seems to me she's had enough of the nasty critical commentary and you don't know another way to communicate. That is a fundamental problem, and an unloving dynamic. And it can be changed.

I'm sure she has.

But you are the broken piece that is not getting needed repairs. That is partly b/c you are too busy pointing out how your "MLC/BPD Wife" is the broken rusty fundamentally flawed, poorly designed wrench in the engine.

I think you really do want the marital dynamic to change. I suggest you Stop working on changing her. Change you.

And see this^^^ as the gift of empowerment, that it is. This is not hopeless, far from it. But work on what you can control - you - and look in the mirror for some of the issues in the m.


Yes I understand that DB is a process to work on you and not change the other, overtly at least. You seem to have a way of stating the obvious and turning it into an insult; even on matters where I have already stated I'm working on it. I'm the broken piece? Have you read the thread? I understand the concept of 2x4, and that you are an old timer. But you seem to be missing the mark here. And if this is an attempt at overshooting to make the 2x4 hit harder, I think you need to rethink your strategy. I've re-litigated this R, in light of your remarks trying to find a way to make it logically follow that I'm the broken piece and all of the W's actions are a result of this. So I make passive aggressive comments and it results in all of the W's behavior? If you simply take spouse A and list her behavior, and spouse B, and list his behavior; it becomes pretty clear who caused what. The end result is I was pi$$ed off for two days on vacation having relived the R. The further I get from the R, the more screwed up I realize the whole thing was. I don't think it is a coincidence that the whole thing fell apart once I caught on and wasn't being duped by her explanations on why everything was my fault.
What kind of relationships did you have with your siblings growing up? And your parents? How was forgiveness modeled?

My siblings were 12 and 14 years older than I. They're crazy about me and acted almost like second parents. My parents love me. No doubts there. Through and before this my dad has become my best friend in a way. He gives to me all he can. It's become no secret that I'm mom's favorite.

Forgiveness? I can't remember it being modeled. My dad likes to joke that once you're on mom's bad side, it is too late. My sister too. It is just in them. My dad is forgiving. I've had to forgive friends for past indiscretions and done it just fine. I've forgiven past girlfriends too.

Were there many compliments given? And how were those compliments, if any, received? A gracious "thank you" or a dismissive redirection or what?

I don't remember many specifically. I was praised generally for being smart, for being a good soccer player, for being a good singer, for being a good boy and well behaved. To others dad was always extremely complimentary, my mom was not. It is hard to get a compliment from her, although she's changed in old age. Dad is dismissive of the compliments he receives, then says thank you.

Dig deep.

If you really want your m to work, there are some fundamental changes you can make that will improve all of Your r's in life.

Do you live on the west coast or east? There are workshops that can help you with this. I think their continuity (a few days in a row, as opposed to weekly therapy) can help you see the path of your comments BEFORE you make them. Learn new positive loving ways to communicate and establish healthy boundaries without tearing anyone else down.

If you are witty, there are ways to enjoy a good sense of humor and laughter is incredibly bonding.

Learn to replace the pattern of "zingers!" into a healthier kinder more loving relationship.

I happen to believe your w wants that^^^. I don't think she's crazy or selfish. Or at least not in an extreme way. At least not from what I'm reading in these posts.


I think she craves intimacy without all the jabs. Those comments eat away at our self esteem until we become people we never wanted to become. Angry, defensive, over reactive. Clearly those are protective tools.

People can change. You can learn to reframe your commentary and negative views of her - which set you up for jabbing her and sets her up overreact, (& then you point out her reaction to your innocent "kidding" to justify your negative perceptions of her.)

AND Then, Rinse, repeat.

What are you doing to change how You interact with her? And to see your motivations?

Also I hope you won't make anymore remarks to your kids which are thinly veiled jabs at your wife. It really is not good for them. And they are learning how to treat their future wives, from you. Think about that.

Hang in there, you can change the course of this ship if you truly truly want to.



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Back from vacation. We were in a 7,000 sq. ft. house on the beach with friends, so it is hard not to have a good time; but it was oddly lonely. I wasn't really expecting that. I was surrounded by families, and I just have this zombie (to me at least) of a person to tiptoe around. I won't be going on vacation with her again.

I was only able to control my reaction once out of three incidents. Her hair trigger has become my hair trigger. I didn't really think about my DB strategy while I was down there. I'm just kind of done with the whole thing. I read 25MLC's comments on my phone and re-litigated the R. It just pi$$ed me off all over again about my W. For two days it just kept running through my head off and on "I friggin' hate you". Not good for a reconciliation.

We played this question game one night. W was totally drunk. She won the questions "Whose promises are like lottery tickets" and "Who most carefully crafts their social media image" I won some questions that really boosted my confidence. Anyway, the whole vacation was a mixed bag. Vacation used to be the one time when W would be happy and nice to me. Not anymore.

I'm not making any rash decisions since I don't like emotion ruling the day, but right now I just want her to get a job and get out.


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On Tuesday I came home from work early. The W had a Dunkin' Donuts coffee. I cheerily asked her if she used the T-Mobile Tuesday deal for the coffee, and she said she did. Earlier, I had sent her some things she could buy the kids for Christmas with the free $20 to mlbshop.com from the T-Mobile app. She said she bought something different, but got confused and didn't use the coupon. So I said"You paid full-price?" trying not to sound accusatory. I kept a straight face too, not trying to upset her. She ended up upset anyway and blamed me for this mistake that she now had to fix. I didn't say anything, but it set this downward spiral in motion.

I put on my workout shorts with no shirt (my progress in getting in shape bothers and upsets her) which probably pushed her further along. She was changing the bed sheets and brought up me sleeping in the basement again. I again told her that if it bothered her, she could sleep down there. The yelling began, and she said how the week of vacation with me was terrible, and if I didn't sleep in the basement, she would just move out. I tried to argue at first, but then remembered validation. I tried it, but she kept yelling over me, so I then reverted to arguing.

She wanted to sleep with the kids on vacation. I didn't because they keep me up all night, (which they did). She said "Poor baby doesn't get his sleep", then tells me how she doesn't sleep well sleeping next to me.

She said nothing is happening to me, as in no negative consequences to the divorce. I told her she's ruining my life and my kids' life, that's enough "happening". I told her to get a job, and then she can move out all she wants. She tells me she doesn't have a resume, so she can't (she's into her second month of talking about this resume that she can't do by herself). I tell her I'll get it done tonight, these people have already said they want her. Anyway, the argument went on for awhile, excuses on top of excuses.

It becomes clearer to me now that some of her dumb excuses are because she won't state the real reason she is doing anything. Another late discovery that does little to help me now.

I tell her I will sleep in the basement if she agrees to let me stay in the house. We had basically come to this agreement previously, but in the argument she starts backsliding. I know her word is worthless, but it was better than nothing.

I know this was a total DB failure, but I have lost almost all respect for her. She has contradicted herself on so many things, it just makes me want to puke. My patience is gone which makes me a failure at DB. At least some of the DB principals will help me minimize the damage from the D. She absolutely can't stand her mother, but is going to end up just like her.


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Originally Posted By: Kylo
The yelling began, and she said how the week of vacation with me was terrible, and if I didn't sleep in the basement, she would just move out. I tried to argue at first, but then remembered validation. I tried it, but she kept yelling over me, so I then reverted to arguing.

Do you have any more concrete examples, because Im having trouble what this means. You started by arguing, which I assumes means yelling. Then you tried validating...for a little bit? and then back to yelling?

Validation isnt a strategy to 'try' for a couple minutes. Its a systematic behavioral change towards being more empathetic. Its about working towards understanding what she is feeling. I dont understand why that is a skill to turn on or off. It isnt about speaking softly or agreeing. its about expressing your acknowledgment of the other person's feelings.

Originally Posted By: Kylo
She said nothing is happening to me, as in no negative consequences to the divorce. I told her she's ruining my life and my kids' life, that's enough "happening".

Ugh. Stop giving her so much emotional power over you. I am divorced from someone who I used to think I couldnt live without. I promise...your life isnt ruined. And I also promise you that my children's lives arent ruined.

Originally Posted By: Kylo
I told her to get a job, and then she can move out all she wants. She tells me she doesn't have a resume, so she can't (she's into her second month of talking about this resume that she can't do by herself). I tell her I'll get it done tonight, these people have already said they want her. Anyway, the argument went on for awhile, excuses on top of excuses.

Next time, just walk away. No good can come from emotional drag-down arguments. Like...why would you make her resume? You already laid out your thoughts - Im sleeping here, you can sleep where you want. If shes set on moving out, then let her figure out a way to do it.

Originally Posted By: Kylo
It becomes clearer to me now that some of her dumb excuses are because she won't state the real reason she is doing anything. Another late discovery that does little to help me now.

Im not sure Im following you. What 'real reasons'? My opinion is that whatever they are...they dont matter much.

Originally Posted By: Kylo
I know this was a total DB failure, but I have lost almost all respect for her. She has contradicted herself on so many things, it just makes me want to puke. My patience is gone which makes me a failure at DB. At least some of the DB principals will help me minimize the damage from the D. She absolutely can't stand her mother, but is going to end up just like her.

OK. Take a few breaths and calm down. Yes, this sounds like a rough encounter. Tey happen. So get back on your house and keep going. If the "DB principles" are actually going to mean anything to you, then you know that they arent really exclusive to a failing marriage...they are tentposts to help you have successful relationships. So why would you stop applying them just because of this argument?

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