Leah, part 5

[leahsue]

OK, I just had a brand new thought, and I'd like some feedback, 2x4s, because I'm pretty sure I need them right now.

One of the things I've been hung up about is this- when H was telling me about OW (vacation), and I said, well, is she someone you could see yourself really loving and marrying???..... he said ...... ATTENTION- "No, b/c she has young kids and I don't want to raise any more kids."

OK People, I ALREADY KNOW, there are so many things wrong with that statement.
And that's one of the reasons I won't even think about being with him again, if that's the best he's got *(And there are more but they are lamer than that.)

BUT, here's my point...... today I was in the shower thinking about some men I've met since BD, (and I'm not going to lie about this-one of them came from this forum but disappeared, is very near my zip code, and for a while I kept up with him on another forum......) BUT, I don't think I would have actually tried to meet him IRL, although he's probably less than 100 miles away from me- and on the other forum, you can post pictures, so I'm telling you, he is a HOT DOLL! but, I'm much older than he is, he would not be interested in me,has YOUNG KIDS etc..... but today it dawned on me, but what if he was? Would you resist? Would you meet him? Aren't you giving yourself the same reasons to not go there? Is that really so different from what H is doing? finding himself attracted to someone who is right there, as opposed to the other person 1000 miles away? I'm going out on a limb here and say- I probably would have at least gone to meet him.

So does that make ME a bad person?
Does that make H a bad person?

Or is that two very alive people trying to find their way home, to the RIGHT HOME FOR THEM?

As 25 says, I'M ASKING!

BTW, 25, I have thought about you so many times this weekend. And I hope you are doing exactly as I pictured..... in a classy, hota$$ dress, dancing the night away with all the nephews, (and maybe possibly a new gentleman caller?) No matter what, I hope you are having "the time of your life." I could not ask for more.

Good night, my good friends. Hopefully some of you will show back up this week. It seems most responders disappear on the weekends, but then show back up during work week.

Hmmmmm..... that's interesting if I were a business owner, which I have given up, but JUST SAYIN!......... I'd be checkin my work force to be sure they were WORKING, not just DBing all day. LOL.

[TBSakaJ9]

One of the things I've been hung up about is this- when H was telling me about OW (vacation), and I said, well, is she someone you could see yourself really loving and marrying???..... he said ...... ATTENTION- "No, b/c she has young kids and I don't want to raise any more kids."

OK People, I ALREADY KNOW, there are so many things wrong with that statement.
And that's one of the reasons I won't even think about being with him again, if that's the best he's got *(And there are more but they are lamer than that.)

I always wondered what I would say when/if i get confirmation my W has OM. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with it if you know your done. I guess I don't understand why your H would talk about his vacation with OW. Is that normal?

I also don't think there is anything wrong with thinking about OM either if that is what you want. You are definately further along than I am but I guess at some point that is our reality.

I don't think it compares to what your H did and I do think it is different. I also don't think there is anything wrong with it as long as your prepared to move on yourself. I also don't think it makes you a bad person!

Just my 10 cents.

[JDub]

So does that make ME a bad person?

In whose eyes?

Who cares?

I want to think that when the door is forced open, especially when it's not of your choosing, you're free to walk through it.

If my wife drives to an S, or a D, she's forcing that door open, and I'll be really sad, but I don't expect to receive a lot of judgment for doing things I would not have done if I were married.

[cadence]

Hey Leah!

I said, well, is she someone you could see yourself really loving and marrying???..... he said ...... ATTENTION- "No, b/c she has young kids and I don't want to raise any more kids."

I'd want more from him than that. I'd want to know why he chose to get together with her, even though he was chatting with you. It sounds as if he tried to have a relationship with her (even if it wasn't serious.)

But the more that I'd want is that his explanation makes it sound like he'd be with her if not for practicality. Where's the remorse for her not being Leahsue and his regret for seeking a shallow fling?

Since his intention is to try to work through things with you, you don't want to be left thinking "he's with me because I don't have young kids and she does, otherwise he'd be with her."

Perhaps he'll get there and is just not digging very deep right now. And maybe you've heard these things from him and just didn't include them.

And by saying the above, Leah, I want to include the disclaimer that I don't think he won't get there, just that surface-level explanation leaves me dissatisfied.

For this reason, I don't think that you should be comparing what he said about his fling to what you think about other men. You didn't have a choice in this, Leah, and now you're wondering if there are better options out there for you. He did have a choice, so I don't think it's a similar comparison.

(And, for what it's worth, I'm terrified to date guys with kids after my experience. However, if H came back to me saying he wanted to work things through because he tried something out with a woman with young kids and didn't like that, I'd be left wanting so much more from him.)

I don't think, reconcile or not, I'll ever get a chance to defend myself in those areas, and even if I did, since we come from such polar opposite views on parenthood and spousal commitment, I don't think he'd ever see (or try to see) it from my point of view.

That's incredibly frustrating. I'm sorry.

I feel like step parenting can be such a no-win situation, where you're supposed to find this balance of all loving maternal light yet no say on how the kids are raised, and constantly suspected to be trying to compete or hinder the kids in some way. It's so hard. Most stepparents have the best of intentions, because it's a great deal of sacrifice right from the start (versus dating someone without kids.)

Also, I've noticed that divorced parents and an opposite sex child can sometimes form an almost relationship-like interaction in the absence of the parent having a significant other. When it's a dad and a daughter, it can be really problematic as a stepmom. The emotional space just isn't there for you to be a full partner. And the child, of course, doesn't want to give up the power they've come to assume (as the parent's confidante and decision making partner), which makes sense. And the parent has trouble seeing that boundaries were massively blurred, and think that they're just "really close" with their child. But they've inadvertently set up this unnecessary competition between stepmom and daughter, when, really, those roles are entirely separate and there's no need to compete.

It's all very confusing, Leah. He wants you around for his grandchild, but also allows others to think you weren't a good stepmom to his D? How's that work?

I think when he and his siblings were at the family beach trip in July, based on a couple of statements he's made to me since then, that align almost word for word with comments his sister has made to me, that the family has pretty much decided that the reason our marriage failed is due to my lack of devotion, and jealousy of my step-daughter. Case closed. I think they discussed the failed marriage in light of that only, found me guilty, and no one ever mentioned his "vacation" 2 weeks earlier with another woman, nor his infidelity in December.

Image management. At some point he's going to have to tell his family to knock it off, and also tell them that he did some very negative and hurtful things to you. That can come down the line, but it would need to happen. Otherwise his family may come between you in the future based on incorrect assumptions that they've made.

[leahsue]

Yes, Cadence, I'll go back and re-read my post but I thought I was clear about needing more from him than the lame first thing that popped out of his mouth.... about not wanting to raise more kids.

In re-thinking how that conversation might have gone, I wish I'd said- so what if her STBXH gets their kids? Then what? She'll be back in as a candidate? That's absurd.

Like I said, the more I think about the whole thing, the less and less I feel that I would want to R, even if the chance arises. There would have to be SO much more assurance and commitment from him, and that has not come close at all to where he is.

I know his family loves me, and I don't think they would want us to D. It's not so much that they (nor he) thought I was a bad step-mother, so much as they all felt (and they were right about this) that as she got older, the lines between the three of us just became more strained, almost like a competition for his attention, which sounds ridiculous to even write those words. But I believe you GET IT. The problem was not as much how she acted, but more how HE acted, almost like he could only be attentive to one of us at a time, and as more fights about it ensued, the more of a "thing" it became. So naturally with us having zero conflict resolution skills as a couple, and his tendency to stick his head in the sand to avoid conflict, it escalated. One of the comments his sister made to me was- "well, we all knew you were jealous of D- for God's sakes, she's his DAUGHTER. That's just weird." Yet all 5 of the siblings in his family felt abandoned by their own mother, when she put a man above them, and left them for him. Although their relationships with her now are close, as they all began to build lives with spouses and children, each of the 5 was firmly of the belief that their children would always come first. That was not such a big deal in the ones who are still in the original marriage, but for the ones who have re-married and are now in step-family situations, I've heard every one of the siblings say- "I told my H/W when we married, I'm going to love you, etc. etc., but my child/children will always come before you, and I 'll make sure they know it." MY H said it plainly to me before we married! So it's not like I wasn't warned! I just wish we could have started earlier with some counseling as a step-family about how to deal with those issues, rather than letting them just build over the years until they became topics we couldn't even discuss anymore. Also, when we married, SD was 5, so it didn't start to become an issue until she began to hit puberty and began to realize her own power with her dad. I know she loves me, and I believe overall, I was a good step-mother to her. But there's no doubt that she enjoys his full, complete attention now, especially on these family trips, without me there to expect some attention from him too.

I've always been ashamed that I couldn't rise above that issue and just open my heart bigger and wider. I was the adult, and I should have been able to at least seek my own IC for the problems I had with it, rather than let it fester.

It is so freeing to her you speak of it openly, without my feeling like I'm suggesting some sort of inappropriate father-daughter sexual weirdness. It was NEVER that.

Also, his EX has never remarried, and she has been a big influence in SD's attitude about me over the years. For instance, when H's sister was dying at home from cancer a couple of years ago, EX-W wanted to come and sit in the house with the whole family as the time drew closer to her passing. My H finally agreed she could come and see his sister, but could not just set up camp there with the rest of us. (And that was b/c he can't stand to be around her, nothing to do with me.) Well, SD was about 17 and in a real rebellious place in her attitude toward me, and she saw her dad's refusal to let her mother come and stay as being all about me, and she was very angry. One afternoon I drove up and was walking toward the garage, and SD and a cousin were standing in the garage just chilling. As SD saw me approach, she turned and ran into the house without speaking to me. I followed her on into the big family room and saw that she had run to her dad and plopped down in his lap. Now there is NOTHING wrong with that, although it maybe looked a little awkward b/c she has a large frame and is as tall as her dad, so maybe it would have seemed a little weird to my anyway, but whatever..... she turned her body in a way that he could not see that I had arrived. I knew exactly what she was doing, so I just quietly went to the other end of the room and sat down to visit with others. When H looked up about 5 minutes later and saw me, he said- WOW LEAH, I didn't even know you were here! Just pushed D off his lap in one swoop, and came right to where I was and greeted me with a big hug. He didn't think one thing about the whole scene, but that CANNOT have felt good to his SD. I feel so ashamed when I think of how that must have made her feel. It didn't make me feel good either. I'd guess that most of the women in the room saw it, felt it, and understood it, but I doubt a single man in there, H included, saw anything at all.

For the life of me, I can't think how I should have handled it differently. By that time, it was such a source of stress for me, I was heavy into avoidance of the whole thing too. Felt easier to sweep it under the rug and press on. I didn't do very well at that though, because I ended up completely blacking out a the wheel of my car that night in the pouring rain and wrecking my car, with H is the car behind me, which he says took years off his life from fear. I can't imagine. I had every test known to man done after that, and finally was diagnosed as having had a panic attack. Ya think? So we both have some serious issues with conflict.

I didn't mean to ramble, but I'm finding it very healing to re-open some of this pre-BD pain and begin to pick through the ashes of the R, to own what I should, heal where I can, forgive myself as much as possible, and vow to love bigger and wider with my whole heart from now on, with ALL of the people. There is never a shortage of love to go around. It doesn't have to be divided. There's more than enough for everyone. I just wish so badly that I could have risen to that earlier and saved us all a lot of pain.

R or not, maybe someday I'll have the chance to sit down with her, woman to woman, and ask her forgiveness for any pain I inadvertently caused her, due to my own worthiness issues. There should be more self-help books out there to help step-parents navigate these waters. I could never find any, but I probably didn't look hard enough. I had no idea what was at stake.

I'm also ashamed of that whole situation, because H was a wonderful step-dad to my children. He loved them unconditionally, was the rock that held us all together when my S came out, and it just came naturally for him, I guess due to his philosophy about children always coming first. I do know he wondered why I couldn't just be the same with his D. I never had the same issue with SS. To this day, he loves me and recalls those years in our home with love and happiness.

Oh well, life goes on. We grow and we learn.

[cadence]

Oh, Leahsue, I do understand. At least I think that I do.

I don't think that you should feel negative about R. I think you should strive to feel neutral about it, and continue your focus on you. I think that you can handle anything, so there's no need to worry about which way this will go. And I don't think that it's impossible that H could pull through and give you what you need, but it's important not to invest in it too heavily at this point.

(The following is only my opinion. It applies to stepmoms who met divorced men and when there was no cheating involved.)

Unless there's something that you're not telling us, I am bothered that you were told you were jealous of SD. I really don't think that's what's going on here.

First, it honestly sounds like H's S is stuck developmentally and has projected herself and her pain onto H's D. I simply don't understand her stance that, unless she keeps you in check, you will harm SD somehow.

Life as a stepparent can feel like you're a big screen onto which others project their feelings; oftentimes those feelings have little to do with who you are and more to do with what you represent. And, mostly, what you represent is the reality that mom and dad aren't getting back together and/or a loss of control, which certainly doesn't endear others to you.

It can feel like you're The Invisible Woman, where no one is interested in seeing you for who you are. Unlike other roles in life, the stepmother is presumed evil/jealous/conniving/competitive, and must work to prove that she is not.

I don't think "kids come first" works in intact/first marriages and I think it definitely doesn't work in step/blended families, which tend to have more pressures from more parties involved. I think it erodes marital bonds, conflicts with the traditional marriage vows, and I think kids actually end up suffering if they're not allowed to remain as kids in the household power structure.

A saying I've heard that I think explains the complexity is "kids are the first responsibility, marriage is the first priority." That applies more to minor kids, who ABSOLUTELY need food, shelter, physical safety, and love to thrive. They should be given those things and those things have to come above everything else. But I disagree when a blanket "kids come first" is used to place children's wants above a spouse's wants. I think that introduces weak spots into the marriage.

I don't understand what choice H is supposed to be making, as wife and daughter are totally different relationships. And maybe I'm wrong, but from what I read it doesn't sound like you were competing with her for her dad's time or affection.

I think you were very gracious in that "lap sitting to exclude Leahsue" situation. Frankly, though she needs her dad's attention and affection, her actions were somewhat rude. You reacted with grace and empathy for her feelings. Good for you. I don't see anything wrong with an H stepping up to greet his W when he sees she's arrived, even if SD was on his lap. He should do that for anyone, especially his wife. Just as if you were snuggling and she came in; he could get up and say hello to her and you wouldn't be offended because there's no competition. In fact, you'd probably go greet her as well.

Kids try to divide and conquer in a stepfamily (and in an intact family, too, but it's easier to spot there.) Very few kids want a stepparent, and many hold onto a fantasy of their parents reuniting. Kids are also very focused on themselves (especially when they're younger) and they test boundaries. They will check to see if there are weaknesses present in the M between the parent and stepparent, and exploit them if they find them. With a "kids come first" style of parenting, these things are not kept in check, and the kids become a source of strain on the M.

In my mind, your SD would have been better off with a childhood where she didn't have to worry about adult matters, and who was given the message that there was no competition between herself and her stepmom and her father's love wasn't a limited resource.

In my mind, 100% possible for a father to remarry, treat his spouse like a full partner, and raise happy, healthy, and treasured children. Personally, I think there is trouble for all when the marital boundaries are allowed to be blurred, no matter if it's a first or second marriage.

I understand that it's a hard situation, and certainly there are things that can improve on your end. But it's a bit of a no win for you. SD was left anxious and competitive, no one has fixed H's childhood (because that's impossible) and your M was/is in trouble.

Dialing your situation back, aren't you being asked to accept a limited W role so that SD can have some pieces of it? Do H and his family think that you failed, and this absurd strategy would have worked better with another woman? Because I could never have been as patient as you were in your circumstance.

I've never seen a kid who was elevated to adult status in the home who didn't have significant anxiety issues. I think that minor kids crave knowing that their parents have life under control. Step-families who put kids first take that security away from the kids.

I feel nervous typing all of this out because it would be very easy to point at me and tell me I'm an evil stepmom because I think kids coming first is the problem, and that I don't think the roles of marriage should be different if there are children from prior relationships. If H does not come around, I am officially terrified to date men with children.

[OwnIt]

Leah,

I think you are rushing this stuff again. It is a pattern that you have had from the beginning. You want the quick resolution so that things feel comfortable again. It is going to take time. I wouldn't think about reconciliation at all. I would try not to have a timetable and instead would try to follow my gut. If I felt like a visit, I'd say yes, if not, I'd say no.

I wouldn't overthink the relationships with his kids either. Probably easier for me to say at this point since I haven't been in that situation, but you guys have been together a long time and these kids are grown. You are not an interloper late on the scene. Maybe the SD liked more attention, but my guess is she'd rather have the one in her life she's known since again 5 than a new, maybe younger and more competitive one. I think that stuff will die down in time.

Also, try not to focus on his stupid comment (because that is what is was, about this woman). When I think back to my H's recent statements about having to leave me because I watched season one of the Apprentice (and therefore am responsible for Donald Trump being elected) or that he left because I hate the outdoors (what?) or because I drink Diet Coke, I see why they tell us not to believe anything they say. It is just words and at this point his words don't mean much, good or bad.

Focus on his actions. Focus on your feelings. Take it day by day. Does he make your life better or worse? It takes a long time to come back together after betrayal. Read all the piecing people's threads. It is a hard and bumpy journey and you are the only one who can make the decision whether to take it and stay on it. Forget about the baggage he is bringing along the way, that could all change during the course of the journey. If the trip gets old or painful, get off and go home.

[leahsue]

I swear I LOVE YOU PEOPLE!!

Cadence, I just laughed when I read your last few lines about being almost afraid to type it out on paper. That's exactly what I felt yesterday after I hit "submit"- that oh my, I've really exposed the underbelly of this ugliness now.

But even if that happened, and someone judged your for what you've said here about step-parenting, your words have given me a surge of hope and encouragement, that maybe I did MOSTLY the best I could, and in a lot of ways, it kind of IS a no-win situation. I will be reading your words from this post several times. Thank you for your honesty.

And Ownit, THANKS A LOT FOR GETTING TRUMP ELECTED. I KNEW you watched too much TV. Obviously. And if you could just lay off those Diet cokes, geez.

Seriously, you're right. I'm on the fast forward train, and acting like the train has left the station, but in truth, the next train hasn't even arrived yet. I may take a cruise ship instead anyway. Trains are over-rated.

[Jim1234]

Also, try not to focus on his stupid comment (because that is what is was, about this woman).... It is just words and at this point his words don't mean much, good or bad.

Focus on his actions. Focus on your feelings. Take it day by day.

^^^^^^This

[BluWave]

Hi Leah!

Thank you for thinking of me and requesting my feedback. I just got caught up on your sitch. Since I am a little late here, I'm going to highlight a few things in your posts that stood out to me. Overall, I tend to agree with Ownit--she gives sound advice. ... Oh, and I sincerely have no 2*4s for you. This is really, really hard and it takes a really, really long time (for lack of better word choices). I have not even updated my own sitch because I am not in a good head space these days (and that is with 2.5 years of H having all the regret and remorse). Point in case--it is never clear what to do and it is never easy!


I think it was too soon for another visit. I think I've made it too easy for him to spend time with me. I think I knew in my heart I should have said no to the 2nd visit.

Leah, these are your words so keep them close to you. Your heart (instincts) were not ready for so much of him, so this makes me think you were go heading based on fear. It is not easy to know what the right thing to do is, but without too much analysis, our gut knows. Follow it. It is okay to say "no" to him and that will not push him further away. If anything, as you listen to yourself and value yourself first, you become more attractive to others. Most of us in piecing look back and agree with moved too quickly in the beginning.


He said all the right things, about wanting us to have a future together, but those words don't mean anything to me until he can give me the assurance that she is completely out of the picture. And the burden of proof as to how he will give me that is going to have to be on him.

At the end of this visit, I felt more sure that this will end in divorce.

I thought this was telling. You say he said all the right things, yet in the next breath you feel more sure it will end in D. You seem to have a high level of doubt for relatively early on, and this makes me wonder why. We are different of course, but I did not have so much doubt in the beginning when my H returned. It was as the months went by that my perspective began to shift. This might have been because I was flooded with relief early on tho.

I also have made the decision that I will not see him again or spend time with him, as long as there is the question of the OW and he having any contact with each other. I realize that right now neither of us considers ourselves "married" to each other, and certainly neither of us has re-committed to the M, ...


I think it is perfectly okay to expect him to not see any OWs and to require proof of it. Even if you are separated, 1. you are still his W, and 2. he has a history of infidelity. I don't want him to think he can drag his feet, cozy up to you and see how it feels, and keep you as his plan B. That seems wrong to me. I think if he wants any R with you, he should cut off all other Rs with OWs, come clean, show some remorse for how he hurt you, and offer up a transparency plan. Am I asking too much? I don't know, but that is what I needed and that is what I have felt I deserve as his W and as the person who was burned in this.

On that note, I am not a fan of his excuses--it was just 1 one-night stand, and I didn't start seeing OW2 until we were sep, etc, etc. His actions betrayed you and hurt you, and that is what matters. He also led you to believe that entire time that he would be visiting you and coming back around. He was dishonest and unfair to you. If he wants an R with you, he owes it to you to show you remorse and regain your trust. That is my opinion.


I think I've let him back into my life too easily.

You know what? That is okay and you live and learn another day. You get to wake up each day and continue to decide what you need and deserve. I often think I let my H back in way too easy. Now I have moments where I question myself, why I did that, and if ultimately I will move on without him one day. I probably would feel this way now whether I had or hadn't let him back easily tho. And, either way, is he doesn't think he got off easy--he lives with a lot of regret, shame and self doubt now.

Yikes, I have to get back to work and I only got through one post! I will think more on this and come back to it. In the mean time, you keep doing you. You are great and you deserve all the good things in life! Never settle.

Blu