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Maybell 40


JujuB, I'm not going to speak for other guys. But My Guy does the work.

I tend to take a scorched earth view of marriage & divorce myself. I don't really understand what could cause a connection to decay so badly that it can't be repaired, barring anything catastrophic like infidelity, abuse, or addiction.

However, in my life I've seen couples where that was just so. My uncle married a woman whose first marriage decayed in that way, in spite of their two kids. They parted very amicably, and then my uncle and his wife have gone on to have a long and very happy marriage. I have friends and a cousin who are very close with the respective exes. It can happen.

I'm only going to speak for myself here, but I think the factors that caused me to stay in (and fight hard for) a marriage that was uneven and shallow, to say the least, are what make it so hard to be OK with people not being willing to accept those qualities in their own life. My sense of commitment is strong. My sense of right and wrong is fairly black & white. My willingness to sacrifice myself for the "greater good" is pronounced. I find it difficult to tolerate people who dont share a lot of those values.

Maybe there are people who lack the ability to tolerate mediocre and rather than let their lives degenerate into something miserable and potentially abusive, they face up to it honestly and do the hard thing of saying "if we can't make it better, let's make it different." And different means splitting up.

Mr. Fantastic never found the courage to tell me what he wanted from life. Instead he drank like crazy, worked away from home as much as he could, avoided engaging unless he knew it would be enjoyable (not merely pleasant), and cheated. If he had been open with me about wanting to be a spoiled college kid, that might have spared me the cheating, etc., but we still would have ended up divorced, because I want none of that in my life. Our values weren't aligned, to a catastrophic degree. Maybe it's possible for a couple to have that kind of misalignment in their relationship, and something like kids are a career or whatever brings that out to a really noticeable degree, and then, instead of acting out and being passive aggressive about it, they do the hard work of disassembling the marriage in the kindest, most honest way they can find.

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So a friend has been asking me why I'm still angry with Mr. Fantastic (because it bubbles up from time to time, pretty fiercely). Yesterday was his birthday and Sunday Father's Day, so all that mess has been on my mind more than usual. But in the introspection, I think I've come to a conclusion.

He's been with his Fantastic Girlfriend now for two years. She has the same name as me (first AND middle, and my name isn't that common), she's got the same hair color as me, she was the SAHM to FIVE children prior to her divorce (a whole different saga), etc. I'm two years older than Mr. Fantastic, she's six years older than him. I could go on.

So for a long time now I've been thinking, he was perfectly happy with our life, it was just ME that he wanted to be away from. And that there was something really wrong with me, that really he is a perfectly good guy who was just smothered or over-determined or felt mothered or something. And she was an upgrade from me because she's smaller than me and hotter in bed.

During the settlement negotiations Mr. Fantastic objected to how much I relied on the lawyers to sort out all the details. He phoned me and asked, couldn't we do some of this ourselves? I said NO, I DON'T TRUST YOU. He said "I know I lied about some things, but I wouldn't lie about THIS." Fortunately I stood my ground and it definitely worked out better for me than if I'd folded, because he clearly knows how to manipulate me.

I was also thinking about how his dad told him, when he called to say that he was thinking of leaving me, that it was really, really important to be very honest with someone when you ended a marriage. Mr. Fantastic was careful to tell me that he'd said this, as though he'd taken it to heart. So when he actually moved out we had a little separation agreement that said we'd leave our rings on, we wouldn't date other people, we'd go on weekly dates together, etc. I asked for those conditions and he said that it was a really great idea and that we'd definitely do that.

Well, the date nights ended after two weeks, because he was so clearly miserable around me and I was miserable trying to carry the weight of coaxing a smile out of him. It didn't take more than three weeks for me to get outside, unsolicited evidence that Mr. Fantastic had been dating women all over our (little) town, several of them single moms from our kids' elementary school. (The Fantastic Girlfriend is one of these, except that she was most definitely NOT single when they started sleeping together.) One of my friends sent me a screen shot of his Tinder profile. And so forth.

I think up until now I haven't really trusted that he is not a good person. I have been trying to reconcile the fact that I CHOSE to marry him and I CHOSE to make him the father of my children, and I had at least some information to know that he was not up to those roles. But really, although I bear the responsibility for not listening to my gut, and for rushing into marriage without a proper understanding of what it is, the truth is, he chose to be shallow, self-absorbed, deceitful, and conflict-avoidant. If he weren't all those things, he would have communicated if I was in fact being smothering or whatever. And I would have corrected because I do try to not be a jerk.

I could go on, but I think the conclusion I've come to is, it wasn't about me. He and the Fantastic Girlfriend may be their version of happy now (two years in) but he still IS a deceitful, shallow, selfish person. That won't change because that is working for him, by his standards. Thank goodness it doesn't work for me.


Me42, H40
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I don't have much to add....... only I could say some things verbatim that you did.

I KNEW my ex was not good. He has cheated on every girlfriend he has ever had. He has treated everyone like trash. I knew exactly what I was getting into and I got into it anyway being I was going through the most awful time of my life and I grabbed onto anything I can. I continuously live after all of these years of the guilt of knowingly getting into this. I chose to marry him, overlook everything, have a kid with him and I feel guilty all the time.

And I've told others this before, but I live with so much shame in it..... my exH was my friends boyfriend. We were 19, she moved away, he pursued me, my life was falling apart in every way imaginable and I took the bait. That friend was also an OW with his GF before!! Good news is.... we are extremely good friends to this day. She fully forgives me and I am remorseful and ashamed to this day.

I mention that because 1) It highlights how I knew what I was getting into also, 2) I feel like my whole life is karma for what I did.

And my ex is still the same guy only with a different wife too. I think they are their own version of happy. What they have work for them, but it certainly didn't work for us. I thought if I was a certain way, or if I did something different, he wouldn't have looked outside. Boy was I wrong.

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Your posts are always SO insightful and I appreciate you for that. I have been struggling a bit this week, after seeing a big mushy post on fb about my XH and his new wife celebrating their first anniversary and I have been beating myself up all week about why it bothered me so much. This post really helped me hash it out in my mind and I am very grateful that you posted it when you did. You are wise beyond your years, MB!


Me 52, H53
Bomb drop 9/29/2014
Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014
Marriage #2 12/31/2019
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Little update because I've had an interesting week or so.

First: My Guy and I went away for a week of vacation (kids were with their dad visiting his family) and had a WONDERFUL time. It was lovely. Kind of like a mini-marriage in some ways. I keep watching for red flags and although he's not perfect, I feel like he really is who he looks like. I'm not ready to move in or get married at this time, but I am very happy with him and I hope we stay that way. I haven't had a relationship like this before and I like it.

Second: Today is the 4th anniversary of D-Day (#1) and... I didn't notice it till the end of the day, when I saw an old Facebook post I wrote that day about running my fastest training run ever, and how proud I was of it. Three hours after that post I learned of Mr. Fantastic's six month affair and I never ran that fast again -- my collapsing marriage was a literal weight on my heart that sometimes made it hard to breathe or walk, let alone run. And yet that year I ran my first ever half-marathon. And now, here I am -- in love with someone who treats me how I've always wanted to be treated, who loves me back, who is becoming a partner in my parenting, who supports me in my (really tough) career, who shares his needs with me -- and I feel so blessed. So often I have looked back at the first half of 2013 and reflected on how the hammer was about to fall on me, remembering the gloss I put on our life in all its chaos during those years, I felt sad for myself and my kids. Today I feel light. Like it was the first day of my real life.

I worry that My Guy and I will break up at some point, that long-term relationships are mostly doomed, that I met him too easily and too promptly and that something will interfere with our permanence. But even if that happens, I still know what a good relationship feels like, and I won't be willing to put up with another Mr Fantastic again.

Third: D14 is on extended vacation and won't be back till the end of the month, so I took her slot with her therapist to talk about how she's doing, how I can support her as she keeps growing out of the chaos and violence that marked her early years, and what our plans are for future treatment. She's doing really well. Our relationship may never look quite like what i envisioned for us but it is becoming something enjoyable and for this I am enormously grateful. (BTW, this is another thing I can credit to My Guy, since he witnessed a lot of her behavior, made some suggestions on what might underlay it, validated my feelings and found the right therapist who is finally actually doing some good after my seeking help for 8 years). It's looking like we're going to keep the therapy going on current plan for the time being, get her a couple of months into high school, and then evaluate if she's ready to drop down to every other week. I don't believe this improvement would have been possible if her dad and I had stayed married. I was seriously concerned about her taking up drugs or alcohol or other self-destructive behaviors before he left. Even when she was little her rages were scary enough to make me fear for her future. I'm starting to feel a lot more confident in her now. I feel like I can finally see her a little more clearly.

I should say a word about my boys, since they seem to get so little press around here. I think the most i can say is that they've both (now 11 and 9) sprouted up in both size and maturity, and it makes me a little sad. They've both got their challenges, but they're pretty much normal growing kid challenges, not as scary (at the moment) as D14's have been. I'm very proud of both of them. They're totally different from each other, and growing more different as they get older but still very close. It's interesting to see how they alternate leadership between themselves, depending on whose strengths are more effective in a given situation. They were always my babies, but they're DEFINITELY not my babies any more. S11 did two consecutive weeks of sleep away camp and then spent a week wth his dad on vacation. Self-sufficiency has been a big struggle for him, so I was glad he had all that time where he had to be a little more responsible for himself. It's a work in progress, for sure, but I can see progress and that's pretty cool. "The Boys" have always been grouped as a pair, and partly because of their close ages, and partly because they are just close friends, aside from school their time has rarely been spent apart. This year they're quite separated, and especially while S11 was away, S9 had to figure out how to keep track of himself and not rely on his big brother to help him out. He's risen to the challenge beautifully, and with a lot of pride. It's fun to see, and I'm looking forward to keeping that up as much as possible so he can blossom into himself. He's a lot of fun to be around and it's been nice to get more one-on-one time with him these last few weeks.

Is there anything else? I still am struggling with my career, and there are lots of days I wish I could just win the lottery and retire, but since I haven't actually bought a ticket yet there must be something I think I can accomplish here that I'm not willing to give up on yet. I will say that in this career you have to have some seriously strong mental health, and perhaps the reason I stick around is that I appreciate how much I've grown in that area in the last year. (Another area where My Guy has been an enormous blessing...)

I think I've rambled on enough. It is tough to see so many people struggling and I wish everyone could get into the light as fully as I feel like I have. Life isn't easy but it is so worth it.


Me42, H40
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Maybell, so interesting to read your posts. There are a lot of parallels in our lives, and I feel very similarly about my new relationship and job. I don't have young children anymore, but it sounds like you are very connected to yours and see what they need.

I'm happy your life is going so well!


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EA 11/13, BD1 6/14
PA fall 14, BD2 2/15
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I love to hear how far you've come. You seem happy and at peace. I completely relate to the wariness about Rs. I'm dating but I realize I put up a wall that I never used to put up before. I think it will be a while before I'm ready to commit--if that ever happens. But I love hearing that you have found someone that makes you happy. There is a peace in enjoying the R for what it is and not feeling the need for everlasting. If it happens that great, but I don't feel like that would be an end goal for me anymore. Partly because I'm cynical now, and partly because I think that expectation caused me to hang on to something I needed to let go of. Maybe it is healthier to not think of it as forever but just enjoying it for what it is today.


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Maybell Offline OP
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Thank you all!

My D14 finally came home today after 4 weeks away visiting family. I had a bit over an hour in the car with her coming home from the airport, where I had her all to myself.

She said she wanted to have a five week vacation next year and I said she could have some vacation but that I also expect her to get a job. There's one lined up and waiting for her, all she has to do is take it. It wouldn't be onerous at all, she just has to commit and do it. She had a fit, but because she was totally exhausted I tabled the conversation for a later time. The interesting part comes next.

She told me that Mr. Fantastic's parents are starting a college fund for all their grandchildren. I said, that's nice, and she said "What's up? You look upset?"

So I told her that I appreciated their generosity a lot and that it would certainly be helpful. But that they were stealing something from her dad and that he would take advantage of it and use it as an excuse to not be responsible for things himself. She and I had a long talk about all the things Mr. F's parents have given him (like furnishing his new $600k house, buying him a car, etc.) and how Mr. F has made choices that are not very mature. I said I felt like his parents were stealing from him the chance to be proud of himself for providing for his family, and that he would be satisfied to let them. I described to her how hard I worked in high school and college to pay for almost all my university by myself, and how nobody could ever take that away from me. That for me it was a source of strength when I was having hard times and that as difficult as it was that I appreciated the strength of character it gave me.

She said, so do you wish that they would do nice things like that but maybe not tell us till it's time to use them? I said yes. I said that sometimes it's also about understanding what your kids need. That Mr. F's siblings probably responded to the news of that gift differently, all from each other, and that it was important to understand your kids so you could do things for them in a way that would help them grow.

She said, So you don't want me to get a job because we're poor. You want me to get a job so I don't grow up entitled? I said yes, that, but also so that you can feel proud of yourself and to give you a sense of accomplishment. And she said, Oh. And then we talked about other stuff, and it was very peaceful.

Moments like that show me I am getting the relationship with my daughter that I want. I don't know if I did right or wrong in what I said. I gave her my honest opinion about what her dad is like. I said that I thought if his character matched his capabilities and his better qualities, that he'd be a phenomenal person, just like what I thought he was while we were still married. (She knows some of what happened to cause the divorce, but doesn't want to talk about it because then she'd have to be mad at him.) I gave him a lot of true compliments while I was telling her what I thought his weaknesses are, too.

Another cool thing about that was that as I was working hard to make sure I gave her a neutral account of what I thought of her grandparents generosity, I realized that I can feel sad about the divorce without feeling a lot of anger or bitterness. Maybe that was just for today, I don't know. But it was nice to be able to remember why I married him in the first place without getting myself all twisted up in why we divorced. Both those things were the right thing to do at the time. That brings a certain amount of peace.

This great conversation with my daughter, who is an insightful person who is turning out to be a pretty good listener, makes me hope that I'm able to have them with my boys at some point too. S11 in particular I'd like to start fostering that sort of honesty and openness with. Just a little at a time, of course, but I feel like he has less understanding than his sister for what happened, and I'd like him to have more clarity. It might help him with some things I think I struggle with. S9 doesn't understand anything at all, so far as I know. He was barely 6 when his dad moved out and he never asked any questions about it. I'm not sure how it will manifest when he does. I'd like him to be mentally prepared for the answers when he wants them.

One last thing... D14 told me she asked her dad while they were away if he was planning on marrying his Fantastic Girlfriend, as they've been dating for two years now. He totally blew up at her. Told her she was rude and it was a totally inappropriate question to ask and she should never ask that question. The thing that's funny about that is that she told me that had happened after I spoke to her about some long-term goals I have around our family, and some thoughts I had about including My Guy in them. I mentioned that I might like to marry him someday, but that I wasn't ready to yet. She thought the contrast was interesting. I feel like it's important to share these things with my kids so they have some frame of reference for the thinking that goes into making commitments when they're older.

I don't know if I do right or not when I have these conversations with my kids, but I feel so much better when I'm keeping them in the loop. In the last few months I've told them a lot of the family histories around Mr. Fantastic's side of the family, including their grandparents and great-grandparents. They listen very attentively when I do and say "Dad never tells us this kind of stuff." I spent a lot of years listening carefully and fostering those relationships. I may not have been enormously successful in making a deep impact on his family, but at least I've got stuff to share with my kids so they understand what their roots look like. As much as we've moved around all over the country and as far as we live from them, I feel like that's really important for them.

My kids have entered a fascinating stage of life that's really fun and slightly hair-raising to be part of. S11 grew so much in the last month that when D14 came home she said "Holy smokes, you're HUGE!" They are engaging in the world so differently all of a sudden. I've been making a huge point this summer of coaching them into being significantly more self-sufficient and it's fun to see them rise to the challenge. I'm so curious what the coming school year will bring.

Finally, I had a bit of an epiphany this week about My Guy. He's been away this week dealing with some family issues and his illness. We've been communicating as much as possible but I was away for a conference this week so it wasn't as much as either of us would have liked. And somehow I had this moment where I realized: He's pretty much in. He's not going anywhere. He's confiding in me and making suggestions and in other ways he's really HERE. I think it's probably OK if I relax into it. I don't see any red flags.

But also, while I was at my conference, I heard a speaker who was talking about his dad and how tough he was, and also how awesome, how much he loved him, stuff like that. Then at the end he said, that wasn't my biological dad. My biological dad wanted me to be an abortion and abandoned me and my mom when I was one year old. My Dad married my mom when I was about five. And I remember him sitting down with me and telling me he was going to marry my mom, and he said, and I'm going to be your dad and I'm going to love you as my own. And he always did. The speaker said, He was tough sometimes, and he could be hard to live with, but he always loved me and he was always there for me.

Hearing that story somehow restored my faith that people can act from goodness and not out of some kind of hidden agenda. Also, it's ok if they're not perfect. That my kids and I are lovable to someone who didn't create our family even if the person who did doesn't find us lovable. My relationship with My Guy actually has deepened with time, noticeably; I don't think that's something that can be faked when I'm watching it this closely. I think it's going to be OK. It will be interesting to see what happens next.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
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I'm just going to throw this out there so I can get it out of my head...

My D14 has been working hard on her relationship with her dad. Everything he has going on she works to make herself part of it. (Totally different from my sons, who are oblivious).

A couple of days ago she gave me an ENORMOUS gift when she made up a meal plan for the week, prepared the grocery list to go with it, and figured out the time when she and I would go together to accomplish it. I was SO grateful. As we were in the grocery store she picked something up, read the nutritional label, and commented "Dad should get this. He's been trying to gain weight lately." I said, "Oh, really?" She asked didn't I notice how skinny he's gotten. He was always a skinny guy -- really skinny, and I don't look at him almost at all any more as part of my gray rock strategy. But then last night she showed me a picture of him from around the time of BD and yes, compared to now he has clearly lost a ton of weight.

My mind goes to wondering, why would that be? In all the time we were married, he never put on more than about an inch around his waist line (from age 23 to age 39). He never lost a whole lot of weight either -- a little during the divorce, but not 30 pounds like me. Now, though, my D is right, he's looking gaunt. Is he sick? Is he suffering because he's not taking care of himself as well as I took care of him? Is he doing drugs?

The other thing is that about a year and a half ago he bought an incredibly expensive house in our little town. It's gigantic. So gigantic that he has a tenant in an apartment or guest house on the property, and converted part of the house into an apartment that he rented to his admin assistant. I'm not sure he can afford the house without the tenants. Well, his admin assistant moved out, and my D has announced that he's turning the apartment into an AirBnB.

The first part of me is immediately concerned about the safety of my children. The apartment can be accessed by an interior door from my sons' bedroom. It has its own exterior entrance but it is still a single family home and Mr. Fantastic did not upgrade the door or wall it off from the corridors that leads to the apartment. My older son has already told me how uncomfortable he felt knowing the full-time tenant was right there on the other side of that door. How much worse will it be with a parade of strangers over there?

The second thing that comes to mind is... What a stupid life Mr. F has set up for himself. Grown-ups in his position (he's an executive) don't live with an AirBnB in their primary residence. Grown-ups don't let out part of their house in order to be able to afford to live in it. Grown-ups don't need their parents to buy their furniture for them. Grown-ups don't need to delegate the job of setting the apartment up to their 14yo children. (My D was asking My Guy what it would take to cut out a pass-through from the kitchenette into the living room, among other things).

I will say, this experiment has been very enlightening for my D, since she's been put in charge of arranging the apartment she's been making lists of everything the place needs, from kitchen equipment to linens to rugs, and has come to realize how much money it takes to set up a household. So in that sense it's been good for her, but in every other way, it's not the safest thing he could do to my children's part-time residence.

I used to have a huge respect for Mr. Fantastic. With all the difficulties of relating to him, I was always confident that he would take good care of us and make good decisions on our behalf. But now that I see what he does for himself, I have to say, we were not in good hands. I'm not perfect, but holy smokes! He doesn't think things through at all.

WRT the weight loss thing... there is a part of me that wants to think, all smug, you didn't have health problems when I was taking care of you... But I'm trying not to, because it doesn't matter anymore.


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
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Maybell Offline OP
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Oh, he also rents out his basement to the band his boss is in for rehearsal space. When the band is over practicing my kids aren't allowed to make any noise so they don't disturb the band. I could go on, but...


Me42, H40
D12, S8, S7
A revealed: 7/13
Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15

She believed she could, so she did.
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