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Originally Posted By: Ginger1
Hey Zues,

On another hand, I also wonder if the divorce rate was 5% would people be killing themselves because they are in a marriage they are miserable in? It could really go either way. We see how some WAS feel smothered, trapped, neglected, abused, very depressed and if they couldn't get out by divorce, they might get out otherwise. Again, I am probably only an advocate of divorce in 5% of situations, rather than 50%, but this is a reality.

I do think they should do more studies on the effects of divorce/heartbreak. It really can be devastating to many.


Hi Ginger. Of course that is possible. It's possible that the suicide rate would spike drastically if people were hopelessly trapped in miserable marriages. It's also possible that the net fulfillment in our lives would decrease if we were tethered to stagnant marriages without the freedom to pursue our soul mates.

Because we can never know for sure we have to follow our beliefs at best and educated guesses at worst.

My beliefs are that a marriage and family shouldn't be destroyed and a spouse shouldn't be abandoned because one doesn't feel like they are getting out of it what they expected, desired, or deserved. For me personally that sounds as ghastly as a parent abandoning a child because they don't feel like they are getting as much in return for their sacrifice as they signed up for and they think they could enjoy a single life more. I think the mainstream acceptance of these types of rationalizations has snowballed into the landscape of broken families that we see today. I also believe that true fulfillment in life comes from serving others- God, Spouse, Children, Community, Employer, and putting the focus on appreciation for what you have. I believe that placing personal happiness at the top of the chain and focusing on unmet desires to find fulfillment doesn't work and is the cause of most of our pain and sorrow. And I believe that the rationalizations about why a marriage should be ended are essentially the Devil's tools. Even assuming that the teachings of all religions are completely cast aside and that we consider this scientifically as nothing more than a giant social experiment- at what point would we decide that this isn't working for us very well?

Each of us gets to cast our vote on the culture we create as a society. My views are in the minority these days, and I'm no shining example of what I think everyone should be- but that's ok. I am not shouting down people that feel differently or close minded to the idea that there is something I'm missing. Yet I feel a sense of responsibility to share my beliefs at the appropriate time when the conversation arises the same way I cast my ballet every four years. And when I see the horrible aftermath caused by the wounds we inflict on each other it does make me feel aware of the mistakes I've made and the consequences they've had. We are all human and we must find peace in our imperfect humanity, but that doesn't change the fact that our actions have consequences and we shouldn't strive to do our best. No victim blaming here, people ultimately choose their own road. It's just important that we are vigilant about how we choose ours.

As always I appreciate you playing Devil's advocate ( wink )


Me:38 XW:38
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G, I made that last line because I thought it was a cute joke. But even though I think it's funny and I think I made it clear I was joking, it still looks a little snide or dismissive after the fact. I want to make it crystal clear I don't think you're an advocate of divorce or the devil's work. You are having a very important conversation and bringing up very important points, and I know your are a tremendous individual with beliefs very similar to mine in many ways. So thank you for the conversations. Have a wonderful day.


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This suicide/murder story is so very sad.

It reminds us of the very strong emotions that swirl around the break-up of long term marriages and how much pain and suffering they cause.

The view that 'these things happen' needs to be challenged. My (adult) children's lives, and mine are forever changed. We are not living in the past, and have all forged good lives, but the past casts a long shadow. And since my xh is still not happy you have to wonder!

Of course I am not advocating that unhappy and dysfunctional marriages should be forced to endure, but the idea that it is normal to divorce after 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years or more of marriage does need questioning.

It is easier to break up a long term marriage than it is to unilaterally dissolve a business relationship in many jurisdictions.

With regard to suicide - I believe (and my work leads me to say this) that just as there is overt and covert depression - one is more evident, the other less easy to spot, there are also 'signs of suicide' and then there are the ones where 'nobody saw this one coming'. This can sometimes be spotted but they are very very good at putting on a good face.

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Such a terribly tragic ending and I feel really bad for the kids!

Unfortunately, statistics will show that the suicide rate among men increases significantly with divorce. There are also really alarming numbers in regards to women's death by domestic homicide from their intimate partners (husbands ex-husbands, boyfriends, etc).

Why that is... I can only speculate, but there are many studies that find women are more likely to initiate divorce. Therefore, in most cases, the men are the ones left in shock and most likely didn't want the divorce. (not all situations)

There can also be other factors for the mental instability of male divorcees. Gender bias family court (not entirely proven) could play such a role. Loosing time with your children, carrying a heavy financial burden, and relocated or loosing marital property is all very damaging during the divorce process.

(I am not advocating that only MEN suffer from these things)

Either way I think we would all agree that divorce is very tough. Depression, lack of sleep, poor nutrition, are just some common side effects that goes with it. Probably pretty much everyone on here has experienced some, if not all, of such symptoms.

My heart and prayers go out to those children. I am sure no one will ever know why he did what he did, but again...I feel really bad for the kids.


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Quote:
there are many studies that find women are more likely to initiate divorce. Therefore, in most cases, the men are the ones left in shock and most likely didn't want the divorce.


I would not equate the numbers on who FILES for divorce with the numbers on who CAUSED the divorce. My observation from many many years here on the boards is that quite often, the husband who leaves, often in a blaze of MLC, seldom is proactive in moving the divorce process along (because, after all, paperwork is boring when you're out having MLC fun, plus they kinda like to keep the wife waiting at home as a potential Plan B if it doesn't work out, plus it is sometimes financially advantageous to them not to file.) Therefore I've seen many women forced to do the filing even though the divorce was not their idea and not what they necessarily wanted.

Quote:
There can also be other factors for the mental instability of male divorcees.......carrying a heavy financial burden,


Granted, both parties usually lose financially in a divorce because two CAN live more cheaply together than apart. And that financial strain can certainly add to the pain when you're the LBS. But I just want to correct the impression that women somehow make out in a divorce. Many studies show that on average, women's financial state after divorce is far worse than men's financial states after divorce. Men may harbor a lot of resentment about paying things like child support and alimony, but statistically, women's standards of living drop significantly while men's rise. (There are many contributors to this, including the fact that women are often not paid on par with men, women "mommy track" their careers to care for children and home, I see a lot of women here not fight for everything they are entitled to in a divorce in hopes that by being "nice" their spouse will be more likely to come home, etc. etc.). Note, I'm not saying that it NEVER works the other way - and I have seen some men here who definitely got the short end of the financial stick in a divorce - but in general, it's the women that suffer more financially.

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I'm glad this is being discussed actually.

Maybe I should have created a different thread for this or maybe we need a "suicide/depression/domestic violence" thread anyhow. (?)

Safe to assume even without psychosis or any other psychiatric problems,

most people here have had trouble sleeping and eating. Most here have energy levels that fluctuate wildly, our concentration is off, we are easily distracted, we can be emotionally fluid or just damn sad. Some of us get panic attacks, heart palpations, or cannot face any tasks associated with this process. And there are assorted other physical and emotional problems.

This^^^ has to affect us[/b] neurologically.

(KML, I'm not a doctor of medicine /- but 'm a doctor of law/play one on tv/am married to one
which are all EXACTLY the same cool)

[/b]


I think we can stipulate on this site, that there are too many divorces in our nation.

Ginger to be fair, I fully agree there are a lot of marriages in which as least one of the partners is very unhappy (for whatever reason) So we have to care more about being married.

How many of us know couples in which each spouse would say and mean, their marital r is the most important thing in their lives?


And yes Our legal process makes a lousy situation even worse. And so does the blasť reaction of our society to divorce in general. Lots of questions about why you are divorcing and the expectation is you'll have a one sentence answer. WTF?

Most mediocre marriages will NOT improve with time. The lousy marriages that somehow dramatically improve, tend to require a life altering event and or an internal seismic change in one or both.
If we Imagine a criminal case of equal importance, like having your house burn down and trying to decide the cause of the fire AND if you'd ever get another house, you can see the drama/trauma of divorce in another light.


The PROCESS must be changed. I have ideas and invite others.

Some jurisdictions require counseling for the kids, a few parenting classes too.

I don't think regular "MC" would help much at all, not if they just rehash their past and take out their scorecards to renew their grievances...

**** I wish for time apart or some type of DB like intervention so that when the couples meet face to face, they do not repeat the dynamic that got them in divorce court.

Only time and deep introspection and R reflection can help most couples in these situations. If anything.

How do you get that?

I'm not sure how we could "make" someone who thinks they want out, able to see the long term consequences to others And to themselves...


more on Ralph later


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
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Raising the quality of marriages is an important goal. Maybe it is the only way. And I would LOVE to hear your ideas about how this could be done 25!

Before we get to how though, I have to ask this- Suppose we couldn't improve the quality of marriages, and we simply had the choice of remaining in those marriages or getting divorced. Would divorce then be justified?

Most people that say they believe in marriage and are against divorce put in a small clause that goes "except in the event of abuse or addiction or adultery". The problem is that's too vague and could apply to 100% of spouses. Does someone buy too much on Amazon? Shopoholic! They watch porn? Adultery! They don't want to spend their free time together? Negligent and emotionally abusive! This isn't to say that there aren't some truly horrendous situations that arise that can't be tolerated, but the social movement to speak out against these intolerable situations has given a free pass to anyone that wants out for any reason. Why would you leave your spouse and have an affair? OH, YOU WERE BEING ABUSED AND THIS OTHER PERSON WAS JUST HELPING YOU FIND YOUR STRENGTH TO STAND UP FOR YOURSELF, GOOD FOR YOU!

Personally I believe these mediocre unhappy marriages should NOT be broken up. This if for two reasons.

First, I think that the true benefits of a marriage are way deeper than the superficial reasons that are observable with our five senses. Companionship, sex, going for walks, all great stuff...but even in a bad marriage there are deeper things like purpose, identity, witness to your life, stability, history, and some level of trust that can only be earned through years. Get a divorce and you can chase the walks on the beach and the sex, but you cannot ever replace the deeper and more meaningful offerings of marriage. How do you really trust someone who has been divorced twice? How do you really feel unconditionally needed by someone when they buy into the 'must not need anyone or I'll be forced to live with oppression I'm too good for' mentality and your former spouse already told you to hit the road? How do you replace decades of shared time during the formative years of your life? You simply can't.

Secondly, it doesn't even work. Today's narrative is that if we don't settle and we walk from a 'bad' marriage that we learn, and grow, and heal, and find ourselves. And that while it hurts we weren't 'compatible' and that it was a gift because we both meant well but it just wasn't 'right', and that now we must go look elsewhere because someone will be out there that won't be an addictive abusive cheater that will allow us to build the relationship we've always wanted that we just weren't ready for until we went through this cocoon phase. That's right, our first marriage is just the caterpillar and we are about to become a beautiful Monarch Butterfly! Oh, wait...2nd marriages fail more than firsts, and all we are doing at a macro-level is taking the same group of flawed humans and shuffling them around again and again, only this time with the baggage of broken families and disillusionment and without any of the benefits of shared history or true commitment. How can this possibly be a good strategy?

OK, I understand the idea that if people are willing to walk away from marriages it might force people to grow and be more demanding of themselves with the hope this would marital quality and thereby eventually lower the divorce rate. I'm just not seeing that happen.

In the end I am a believer in the camp that a marriage is forever, and I throw out the exceptions clauses that list pages of deal breakers that can be applied to all situations. Let's stay with our families and accept that we weren't put into this world to be fulfilled by others. Let's suffer together and have some occasional moments where your spouse does something that reminds you they know you better than anyone in the world because they've been with you for 30 years. Those moments trump a new sexual position in my book any day.

Now, if we can improve the quality of marriage as well then I'm all for it. But I'm not going to make my support of marriage conditional upon the stipulation of some future evolution of our ability to relate to each other.

All just my opinions of course. Just like I'm not too worried about it because I think that artificial intelligence is our best bet to work through this. I have less and less faith that we're figuring it out. Hey, AI just beat heads up no limit holdem. How much tougher can relationships be that a 5x pot bet on the river?


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I agree Zues, but somehow your post makes me sad today

I got a letter from the life ins policy I've had on H since he was deployed. H canceled it.

Mind you, I pay for it, but h is the "owner". Why on earth would he do this? I cannot tell you how tempted I was to text him to ask what the hell his goal was.

"You literally want to make sure I get less when you die??"

Good grief...and yes I called USAA to make sure there was no mistake and in their notes it says 'COL was informed his w was paying the premiums, but insists on policy cancellation."

I did not contact him but only b/c my sisters talked me off the ledge. Plus (** And I DO RECOMMEND THIS)

then mentally I thought out each scenario and rabbit hole. They're right to have stopped me. It gets me nowhere and would so likely spiral and escalate...never mind.


There is no honorable explanation nor is there any chance h will slap his forehead and say "OMG I had no idea it was a lousy thing to do. I'll reverse that decision now!"


HOURS LATER I get an email from my L saying h wants to buy me out of spousal support. As in maybe settle...

2 thoughts...

first, if the life ins cancellation was a "Strategy" to corner me or pressure me in some way to settle soon, it achieves the exact opposite.

It just infuriates me AND

Second, given that I don't trust him, why on earth would I believe anything he offers?

He ignores court orders. He does things that certainly appear punitive. What's going to be new now?

Oh and his address changed so I guess he's living with OW and "Sharing expenses".

Great...not a great day but it's Friday so there's that.


M: 57 H: 60
M: 35 yrs
S30,D28,D19
H off to Alaska 2006
Recon 7/07- 8/08
*2016*
X = "ALASKA 2.0"
GROUND HOG DAY
I File D 10/16
OW
DIV 2/26/2018
X marries OW 5/2016

= CLOSURE 4 ME
Embrace the Change
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I think in your situation buying out might not be a bad idea. Given the trust issue, perhaps it could be put in escrow so that you know it will be there when the ink is dry.

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^ not a bad idea


M:23 T:26
Me:53, Wife: 60
S:18
D:16
filed 7/16
W moved out 4/28/17
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