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lt0402 #2709060 10/08/16 02:57 PM
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On a side note, CT I'm hoping to read up on dissoi logoi tonight. Been so tied up in this paperwork stuff I haven't had enough time to devote to it. Sorry bud!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
CT1118 #2709100 10/08/16 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: CT1118

Your W is weak. The above quotes are weak It0402. Dissoi logioi is a form of rhetorical argument - meaning one side of an argument defines the terms of the other side - look it up, let me know what you think. Not sure if your W has been through a liberal arts formal education, but as I read your $hit, the above is what she is doing. Read about it, decide if you agree, if you do, form a defense. Otherwise, but a good shovel and a yard bag, b/c she is leaving some $hit to pick up.


Interesting concept CT. One thing that caught my eye in reading up on it was this quote off one of the sites: "...one reason people argue their side without listening to the other is that they are insecure in their beliefs". Goes back to the whole ambivalence thought my IC has about my W.

It's strange because W does seem to be talking out both sides of her mouth about our MR. She gets extremely emotional when dealing with issues regarding her and I and becomes very wishy-washy and flip-floppy (for lack of better terms) from conversation to conversation. There never seems to be a constant thread or timeline.

However, and I don't know why I didn't see this before, when W is talking to me about issues she sees between D and I (like today) it's a lot more measured and level headed. Nowhere near as pointed or all over the place as the MR talks. She seems to have a full understanding of that and a clear view on it. Maybe the opposite is true on our MR, hence why she's all over the place there.

I'd offer as a counterpoint though, that the concept of working through both sides of an argument (dissoi logoi) could be very beneficial to us. Especially as folks begin their situation. As painful as it may be, stepping into you WWs shoes and taking their view of the issue would help frame where you can improve yourself. The added benefit would be the ability to feel compassion for your WW as you can grasp she is going through a tumultuous time as well, just in a much different way. I'll never forget when AndrewP highlighted that to me a couple threads ago. My grasping that what my W was going through was equally as difficult as what I was, helped frame and understand where she was. Having compassion for her also aided me in righting my own ship as I realized this wasn't just about me. It was truly a turning point and I drew strength from that insight.

Long winded, but CT I agree. She seems to be grasping onto both sides of things and leveraging bits and pieces against me, though very disparately. It would suggest she's very jumbled up inside. She seems to want the "go" side to win so she can be free, but there does seem to be a sliver of the "stay" side still in there. Hell, she got a tattoo on her left wrist that says "Let Go" a couple months ago. What more permanent way to remind yourself not to look back.

Regardless, I won't hold her here. She is free to go if she wants. I won't, however, let her jeopardize mine and my Ds future stability. Would I like my W back? Absolutely. Will I continue to fix my issues and be a stronger and better father and man? Definitely. Will my W ever realize the mistake she's making and rejoin our family? I'm not holding out hope.

I'm pushing forward down my path for myself and my D. My W is welcome to stay in limbo if she likes but she won't hold us back. Maybe we will send her a postcard from the great spot we will be in in the future. Then again, maybe not.

That rhetorical enough? smile


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2709145 10/09/16 10:19 AM
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Well, feeling some of the down-ness right now. Too windy today to get outside with D. Locked up in the house with W and D. Days like these are a downer and I feel like a prisoner who is at the whims of his Ws mood swings.

Last weekend W and I agreed I'd do Sunday meals. She apparently took that to mean one meal on Sunday, while I took it to mean all. W days she has too much anxiety to give up doing both meals. Had a quiet conversation about it this morning with her. Whatever, will work through that.

The part that hit home is her continuously saying "when you have her during your time you can do whatever you want...". Really hammers home that here we are. She also said that if I wanted to keep pressing on the meals conversation we need to tell D what's going on. She said we could get her down here right now and I (apparently by myself) could tell D what's going on.

At this point I'm tempted to call her on that and tell D soon. I'll speak with IC about it on tues. What's the point in not telling D if W is insistent on driving this to an end. I told W we can't tell D be we need to discuss beforehand how to approach it.

We really need to be out of in house. It's not working. I know if we S then we are done, but the constant reminder of our family is driving me insane. Almost like I'm chasing my tail and won't ever catch it. I'm exhausted, frustrated, and I don't know what.

We will see. Spending time with D right now, though W had pulled her away for a few to help with the laundry. I'm wondering how D is going to react when we tell her. How can I continue to keep her world stable and happy. I've no doubt I'll figure it out but really not a fan of my W for putting us here.

W told me earlier that this was in the works for 10yrs and I put us here. I stopped her and said "we" put us here. No ownership from her whatsoever. Guess there never will be. I'll be the bad guy, but I won't let her take us down with her.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2709296 10/10/16 10:58 AM
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FWIW, my W tries to place blame on me -- I think it's hard for a W who bails to say, Yep, it's all on me, I did it.

We LBS are of course 50% responsible for the marriage, but we're not talking about marriage. We're talking about divorce. For that the spouse who decides to bail -- without meaningful, cooperative effort to make it work -- is responsible.

I keep thinking about a story I read in the NY Times about how marriages are difficult. In the story, a wise relative gives this advice: "The way to stay married is to not get a divorce."

Anyway, that conversation with your D9 ... oh man .... I hate that your W is so flippant about it. The idea of it ... feels like death to me.


Me: 50, MLC/WW 45
Young kids
Nov 2015: BD1
Apr 2016: BD2
Jan 2017: W filed
Feb 2017: D final
ForGump #2709312 10/10/16 12:38 PM
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FG, that's the part that drives me nuts. I get that it's 50%, or even 60%, my fault for the issues we had in our MR. I've got no issue accepting that blame and like everyone else here I'm actively working to fix it.

The part that's maddening is our Ws accept 0% of the blame. It's 100% our fault. I'm waking up to the reality,though, that my W won't ever change that view. Unfortunate, but it may just be reality.

I'm very apprehensive about the talk with my D. Part of me wants to put it all on my W, but I know my D will need my support and I want her to hear it from me as well. Add to that the spin I'm sure my W will impart to it and we've got some work to prepare for telling her.

W last night got on me for wanting to watch how she blow dried Ds hair. D has long hair and being a guy I was worried I would be unprepared to help if D needed me. W approached me after we put D down, a welcome change, and we discussed. She called it creepy that I'd watch her blow dry Ds hair. I thought that unnecessary. Whatever.

She drove the conversation towards me after that. Said I'm angry and annoyable all the time. She put off on me that we need to get along with each other to co-parent in the future. I let her know that I'm ok with having any conversation she'd like to havr, but again she's got to get over the anger and resentment she's harboring. She shrugged it off and told me to talk to my therapist about my anger issues. Geez....

I did tell W that I wanted to know how to help with Ds hair by "there will be times during the 7 day window she's staying with me" when I may need to help D. W shrugged it off with that's not how it works in our state and it will never be like that. I let her know I would not accept anything less than 50% and left it at that.

Have the day off today so I got up at 5:30, my new normal wake up time, and headed for the mountains for some hiking. 10miles of no people and just woods was awesome. Felt good to get away and.clear the head for a bit. Had a text from W waiting when I got back. To summarize:

W mad be she can't figure out how to log into mint.com account. D mad bc W says I promised I'd take her to the bus stop today, a week ago. I told W I wouldn't be there this am, she said nothing. D said nothing about me taking her yesterday. I remember nothing about it either, and I'm ultra sensitive to commitments now a days.

I'm waiting in the park near the house to go get D from the bus stop now. I'll talk to D about it and apologize if I'm wrong. At this point I'm wondering if W is making this stuff up and leading D to incorrect conclusions. Or if I'm just losing my mind and memory. I'm betting the former, but we will see.

Should have no trouble sleeping tonight, unlike the past couple nights. FG, appreciate your thoughts above! Hang in there brother!


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2709323 10/10/16 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: lt0402
W mad be she can't figure out how to log into mint.com account. D mad bc W says I promised I'd take her to the bus stop today, a week ago. I told W I wouldn't be there this am, she said nothing. D said nothing about me taking her yesterday. I remember nothing about it either, and I'm ultra sensitive to commitments now a days.

I'm waiting in the park near the house to go get D from the bus stop now. I'll talk to D about it and apologize if I'm wrong. At this point I'm wondering if W is making this stuff up and leading D to incorrect conclusions. Or if I'm just losing my mind and memory. I'm betting the former, but we will see.


It0402,

My XW did a lot of that sort of thing to me. Like you, I thought I was losing my mind and my memory. I finally woke up and realized what was going on. When I started pushing back on the nonsense, she didn't try to do it as often, but I still had to remain alert. I think it's probably a form of gaslighting. Regardless of what it's called, it really does make you feel like you're going insane.

doodler #2709329 10/10/16 01:12 PM
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I don't think you want to battle her at that level. People forget things. Healthy people and healthy couples don't harp on each other for stuff like that. They forgive, they adjust.

Take the high road.


Me: 50, MLC/WW 45
Young kids
Nov 2015: BD1
Apr 2016: BD2
Jan 2017: W filed
Feb 2017: D final
ForGump #2709385 10/10/16 06:43 PM
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Picked up D from bus stop. D got in the car and I asked her if she's been upset this morning. D said yes because she thought I'd be home and we could hang out before school. I asked D if her and I had talked about me being home today and she said, no, mommy told me you'd be home all day today because it's Columbus Day. She said W told her that last weekend when I wasn't around.

I've had issues like this with my W in the past. Where I thought maybe she'd had a conversation with D and made a promise on my behalf. Then W would beat me over the head that I hadn't kept my promise. I am guilty of forgetting stuff, but not to the extent the W has claimed. Very frustrating.

W makes it out today like I crushed my D by not being home when she woke up and she said D was beside herself and crying bc of it. I find myself wondering if W has some sort of issue with memory or if this is and always has been purposeful. Whichever it is, I have a system now that helps me remember and track what I've told W and D I would do. Fixing my issues for myself and my D.

Tired and off to bed. Doodler and FG thanks for your thoughts! I don't think I even bring up the above to the W. Won't do any good. I've told her I think she should resolve her anger issues and she told me to pound sand. I'm sure this would be met with similar.

Her also are still cranking on things. We will see if the agreements come this week.


Me39
M11 : T13
D9
BD 5/31/16
In House S until 6/21/17
Divorced 10/5/18
lt0402 #2709550 10/11/16 03:36 PM
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lt0402- I'm guessing the W didn't blow away this weekend? Ha!

I'm glad to hear you're trying to prepare for when you have hair duty for your D. I don't know that most people think of that!

My W for a while there conveniently "forgot" everything we talked about, surrounding and not surrounding D. It was rather annoying and frustrating. Perhaps it's part of their own delusion. Hang in there.


Me(W): 29 EXW: 30
T: 6 M: 2
SD: 10
BD: 04/2016
PS: 04/2016
W officially "seeing" someone 09/2016
W filed 03/2017
Officially Divorced 11/2017
cheesyt #2709578 10/11/16 07:42 PM
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LT

Havne't been on in a while so was catching back up on your sitch and it sounds like a replica of many of us here.

You are the reason the marriage is done based on her so don't try to get her to change her view...its a lost cause and its something any WAW/H does to make them feel better about their decision. My STBX after a year now is still thinks she is a saint and I ruined it all. I am also responsible for ISIS, earthquakes and floods Its their reaction to rationalizing all that is wrong

Her behavior with your D is exactly the same as my stbx. Just keep track of everything and be overly clear with your D on things so your WAW can't cloud up the communications.

Being the house---ugh. It's hard and was the stress that led me to not sleep and eat for 5-6 months. I know how hard it is so hang in there

Continue to focus on you and your daughter and how best to manage the chaos.


_________________________
Me-48
Spouse-WAW 52
Married for 10 years
D7
ILYBNILWY 7/15
Suspect EA/PA 12/15 No confirmation/denial
She files 1/2016
Working towards the Big D ...still in progress....
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